RealGM Top 100 List #24

[penbeast0]

CENTERS
George Mikan who is the only player left that was the undisputed best player in basketball for a reasonably long stretch of time (5 years +). But, his era was the last vestige of white only, no shot-clock basketball, and he started to decline by age 25 which is really early; rule changes that other players could deal with seem to have been a bigger problem for him. Artis Gilmore or Dwight Howard are the next greatest 2 way centers but Artis seemed to lose his competitive fire when he came to the NBA and Dwight has not been the same dominant player since Orlando. Alonzo Mourning and Mel Daniels are the other 2 candidates that came to mind, very similar players in many ways; plus probably Dikembe Mutombo is a candidate as the most impactful defender left (and not a complete disaster offensively).

FORWARDS
Baylor, McHale, Pippen, Havlicek, Rodman, and even Kevin Durant. Interested to see who starts getting support. Baylor seemed to have efficiency issues even for his day (which started after Pettit's so less excusable), McHale is super efficient but worked against single teams in the post more than any great post scorer in history and was a mediocre defensive rebounder (though the presence of Larry Bird that gave him so many single teams also stole some rebounds from him). Pippen does everything well, but has some issues with clutch situations and mental fragility. Havlicek seems to have nerves (and lungs) of steel but was even more inefficient through the mid 70s than Baylor. Rodman is the GOAT rebounder, but also a disruptive force and barely above the Ben Wallace level offensively, and Durant's career is just starting. A lot of talent, a lot of questions.

GUARDS
I see Walt Frazier as a step up over Nash and Stockton for his ability to take over games with both his scoring and defense, over Payton, Kidd, or Isiah for his scoring efficiency and superior all around game. Chris Paul is also a legit candidate but hasn't yet exploded to dominate an NBA finals the way that Frazier did.

With the questions about Mikan and the forwards, I am leaning to Walt Frazier. Based on his finals heroics, the way his teams in NY (of all places) ran like well oiled machines with almost no ego problems, superior durability, and the fact that as a fan, I feared facing him more than I did any of the others that played during the era I watched games, I will cast a tentative vote for:

WALT FRAZIER

[Quotatious]

I really hope that Mikan will finally get in, after losing two run-offs. He'll be my vote again, I'll provide some reasoning later on.

[ceiling raiser]

penbeast0 - When do you think Barry enters into the conversation for forwardss?

[magicmerl]

Yeah, era issues aside, there's nobody left that had arguably as great an impact on the game or was the reason for their team's success as Mikan. He can only play in the era he was in, and in that era he was a franchise cornerstone.

My vote is for George Mikan.

[penbeast0]

penbeast0 - When do you think Barry enters into the conversation for forwardss?

For me, after Baylor goes, I at least start thinking about him. Tempted to say after Marion goes just to start trouble, but 1975 can't be ignored. Others will push him out there before I do though.

[Basketballefan]

Congrats to Wade on wining # 23 it was well earned. With that said, i'll be considering Barry, Hondo and Baylor as my main candidates for this spot.

[90sAllDecade]

Alright, I'll start discussing Mikan since Wade got in.

But regardless, I'll advocate Mikan's translation, since I think lack of data, game film and exposure to posters is underrating him.

After my initial impressions of Mikan as merely a big guy who happend to play before the game got serious and having significantly researched him; I think Mikan would absolutely be a superstar in Russell's era.

First, he did dominate his era totally. I know we're not supposed to, but I consider his two championships in the NBL as well, bringing him to 7 rings in 9 years. Losing only in his prime due to injury and playing two years after retirement and mounting injuries without modern healthcare for players.

His prime ended after 51 and his serious leg injury. His numbers were reduced with the wider lane, but lets look at that.

1951-52
• Lane widened from six to 12 feet
Change primarily attributed to the dominance of George Mikan

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

After that year Mikan posts these numbers, keep in mind he has been seriously injured before this, affecting his play:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nge01.html

He posts 24 pts and 14 rebs leading the league the next year. His FG% drops to .385, but let's compare his FG% to league averages:

Mikan

.385 -(.367)= +.018
.399 - (.370) = +.029
.380 - (.372) = + .008
.395 - (.387) = +.008

Even after his serious, mounting injuries, the lane widening and post shot clock, Mikan always shot above or at league average.

Now lets look at his competition. In his era Mikan played guys like Dolph Schayes, Cousy, Foust and others. But if you want a bridge to measure how good Mikan would have been in the 60s it's the big men who played in both decades.

Dolph Schayes was more of a set shooter than Mikan's inside post game, but he also played some center and primarily PF against Mikan.

They met in the playoffs in 49-50, with Mikan against a rookie Schayes' Syrachuse Nationals (which later became the Philadelphia 76ers). Mikan of course outplayed Schayes and dominated the Nationals for the championship:

Spoiler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#MNL-SYR

He would also outplay Dolph in 54:

Spoiler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#MNL-SYR

Dolph's game seems to take off with the shot clock, as his team wins the championship the year after Mikan retires. But even when George came back after retirement and all those injuries, his per36 numbers were still the same after the shot clock and lane widening, even in the playoffs.



What's funny about Mikan, is his game consistently got better in the playoffs under pressure, just like the modern players we judge on mental toughness over others.

The reason I bring all this up is because Schayes is the same guy who dropped 35 and other high scores plenty of times on Russell's Celtics as well as averaging 30 pts and 16 rebs against Wilt's Warriors:

Spoiler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 10BOS.html

Spoiler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30SYR.html

Now another center Mikan outplayed was Larry Foust, who also averaged 16 pts and 12 rebs in Russell's rookie year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tla01.html

Long story short, I believe Mikan would have been trading spots with Bob Pettit as the third best big and possibly player in the 60s. I think his health problems mask how good he would have been in later years. I think his averages of 24 pts and 14-15 rebs plus excellent defense would have translated into the next decade.

I do consider 50s and 60s competition below the modern era, especially when it starts to get more above the rim players. But I think Mikan, who retired only a year before Russell's rookie season, wouldn't have been as dominant pre shot clock, but would have translated as a star or superstar in the 60s.

[ThaRegul8r]

Frankly, I don't know why it isn't just made "Top 100 Players of the Shot Clock Era" and just be done with it. This happens every single time, no one knows what to do, it's "too tricky" to deal with so people would rather not have to bother with it at all, so I don't understand why the charade is maintained.

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Make it the best players of the shot clock era from here on out, problem solved, and no one has to deal with anything that's too tough for them to deal with. It's more logical than replaying the exact same thing over and over again every single time this is re-done.

[90sAllDecade]

The same mental gymnastics are played with valuing how good 60s players are to modern players. Some posters wouldn't mind if it was the top players in the post 3pt line era.

That is the true modern era imo and the last major change after the lane widening & ABA merger. Anti Hand checking rules were established before 04-05, with the last change being the most impactful, but not as big a change as the shot clock, ABA merger, 3pt line and two lane widening imo.

Just like some judge players by the rules they dominated with, why are 50s players or Mikan any different?

[john248]

My official vote is for Steve Nash with some consideration to Pippen, Frazier, and Stockton. Nash has led some of the best offenses in league history and has an incredible peak coming at a later age. His threat to score is what makes him more valuable than Stockton where if he saw himself as the mismatch, he didn't hesitate to call his number. If a big switched onto him, he didn't hesitate to shoot over and drive past him. Both him and Stockton are great passers able to run the offense well. Nash has good longevity too though Stockton does have a few extra seasons. I did consider Frazier for this spot too. Frazier was great on defense and was impressive offensively. His game rose in the playoffs which counts a lot to me. I do feel he got robbed of some awards and should've finished higher in MVP voting in some years likely being voted down due to his flashy personality which the media seemed to have penalized. I do feel Nash peaked higher and has the longevity edge. Nash gave a ton on offense while Pippen was a good all-around player, great defensively. Nash's offensive edge, IMO, is worth more than what Pippen does, and I'd take Nash's peak play over Pippen's.

Mentioning Pippen mainly because I want to see him start getting traction. Excellent all-around player. Top 2 or 3 wing defender ever, good rebounder for his position, able to initiate the offense and be a 2ndary ball handler while also being of some value as a scorer.

[ronnymac2]

Nash, Barry, and Frazier are my frontrunners. I'm starting to like Elgin Baylor more and more though. The arguments for him — or at least the information I've garnered from posters on this project — have really opened my eyes to his positives. Truly a great playoff performer. Underrated passer. No doubt an elite-level rebounder at the SF position in any era. Magnificent athlete. The best stylistic comparison to me is Dr. J.

Some of the arguments for George Mikan have been eye opening as well. If domination over the league is a major part of your criteria, then Mikan should be your GOAT, because nobody has ever dominated a league like he did. He dominated the championship scene like Russell and the stats like Jordan. He forced rule changes like Wilt. He dominated with size like Shaq. He's basically all of those guys combined in his time.

But I want who the best player is. I mean I look at the stats...is there any reason why Mikan should go over Nate Thurmond, Robert Parish, or Alonzo Mourning? I mean as a basketball player, not as a winner or a guy who dominated his peers more. Is he better at basketball than Thurmond, Parish, or Mourning? Does he provide more career value than those 3? I don't see the evidence that he's better than they were. Not yet anyway.

I appreciate George Mikan. Without him, my favorite sport might not exist. All of these superstars and legends wouldn't exist if Mikan didn't do what he did. Wilt Chamberlain would have been a volleyball legend, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would have been an artist of some sort, and Shaquille O'Neal would have joined a charity that allows him to go all around the world, helping sick children and occasionally feuding with his fellow charity workers.

[ThaRegul8r]

The same mental gymnastics are played with valuing how good 60s players are to modern players. Some posters wouldn't mind if it was the top players in the post 3pt line era.

That is the true modern era imo and the last major change after the lane widening & ABA merger. Anti Hand checking rules were established before 04-05, with the last change being the most impactful, but not as big a change as the shot clock, ABA merger, 3pt line and two lane widening imo.

Just like some judge players by the rules they dominated with, why are 50s players or Mikan any different?

Ask the voters. I'm not one of them. Every single time this list comes around, people are incapable of ranking Mikan and so the list is restricted to the shot clock era. Since I'm someone who specifically keeps track, I'm wondering why people don't skip ahead to what invariably happens anyway instead of wasting time. Einstein is attributed as saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Yet that's what's happened every time this is done.

[Warspite]

Frankly, I don't know why it isn't just made "Top 100 Players of the Shot Clock Era" and just be done with it. This happens every single time, no one knows what to do, it's "too tricky" to deal with so people would rather not have to bother with it at all, so I don't understand why the charade is maintained.

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Make it the best players of the shot clock era from here on out, problem solved, and no one has to deal with anything that's too tough for them to deal with. It's more logical than replaying the exact same thing over and over again every single time this is re-done.

The flip side is why include current players who cant be compared to the best players of the 2020s, 2030s, or 2040s? Why not have a rule that says you have to be retired 10 yrs to qualify? Surely some kid in 2060 will invent some adv stat that will prove us all wrong about what we thought of current players.

[Notanoob]

I might just vote for Mikan because I can't figure out a preference from the remaining guys. He at least completely dominated the game during his time-everyone else is just in a bucket right now.

I'm certainly not feeling much love for Baylor though. To me, the only really exceptional thing that he did was rebound like mad for a guy his size, even adjusting for era. That's very useful, and his offensive skills are solid, but I can't shake the feeling that he would have just been a good player in later era's, not a great one- none of his offensive skills really stand out, athletically he'd blend in more, and his defense was nothing special either. With other stars from his era- Oscar, West, Wilt, Russel, and Thurmond- I can see some real great skills that would translate into different era's and still be great. With Baylor, I can only see the rebounding translating as a really standout ability regardless of era. Maybe I'm just biased because I like West a lot and naturally would diminish Baylor in his favor, but I'm not convinced that he's any good.

I used to really like Barry, but he just appears to be such an insufferable human being that I can't imagine how he possibly survived a full NBA career without being murdered and dumped in the hotel's garbage disposal by his teammates. The dude is an incredible jerk, and I would assume that he'd run into a guy who just wouldn't put up with him at some point, especially in the wild west that was 70's basketball. I'd love to hear more about him as a basketball player though.

Looking just at their stats during their NBA primes, it looks like Hondo was a better player than Barry too. Similar efficiency, but Hondo generally rebounded more and picked up more assists; he generally carried a heavier scoring volume outside of Barry's 75 season.

I'm all about peak play, but I'd like to know that Barry's 75 season wasn't just a fluke a la McGrady's 03 season where his shot was hot and he never approached that level of play again, even when generally healthy, because he simply couldn't possibly replicate it.

I'd seriously consider Pip and Durant ahead of these three.

The point guards are a complete mess though, I have no idea who to take first among the group of Stockton, Nash and Fraizer.

[trex_8063]

For #24, I’m going back to the player I’ve largely been supporting since the #21 thread: John Stockton.

Stockton holds the all-time records in career assists and steals. This is obviously relevant for anyone who values statistical footprint, but also is telling of both the quality of his play and the length of time (and consistency) that he played. These records are literally unbreakable. They are as unlikely to be broken as Wilt’s 50 ppg season; but unlike Wilt’s 50 ppg season, they did not come about thru stat-padding, gimmick, or because of a specific motive (shared by the whole team) to break records.
The steals record came about because he was a smart, savvy, and always aggressive defender (more on his D later) who played 19 years at a high level/significant minutes while also being remarkably durable.
The assists record came about because he is the gold-standard prototype of the pass-first PG, who consistently played a fundamentally sound and high level game for 19 years while also being remarkably durable.
He may not have been the #1 offensive weapon on that team, but he was the general. He orchestrated the assault, he directed the army (unfortunately for the Jazz, at times Malone by himself was primarily the army, with little additional help).
They nonetheless put it to outstanding effectiveness:
*The Jazz had at least a top-11 rated offense FOURTEEN years in a row.
**They were SEVEN TIMES a top-4 rated offense.
***FIVE TIMES a top-3 offense.
****Were once the #1 rated offense in the land.

Stockton had some very impressive numbers from his prime:
Prime John Stockton (‘88-’97) (10 seasons in which he missed FOUR GAMES TOTAL).......
Per 100 rs: 21.8 pts, 4.1 reb, 17.9 ast, 3.6 stl, 0.3 blk, 4.7 tov on .619 TS%
22.7 PER, .221 WS/48, 122 ORtg/104 DRtg in 36.2 mpg
Per 100 ps: 21.4 pts, 4.8 reb, 16.2 ast, 2.8 stl, 4.5 tov on .574 TS%
20.4 PER, .163 WS/48, 117 ORtg/108 DRtg in 39.0 mpg

As I’ve stated before, I only cut off his prime at ‘97 because it’s the last year he really plays “star-level” minutes (although he would never average less than 27.7 mpg in his twilight/post-prime). His level of play otherwise would NOT significantly decline, even right down to his 19th season. He never once in his final SIXTEEN SEASONS had a single season with a PER <21. He only TWICE in his finals SIXTEEN SEASONS had a WS/48 <.200. His pts/100 possessions would never fall lower than 20.9 in his late years. His ast/100 possessions would never fall below 14.0 in his late years. Compare all of this to Walt Frazier, whose PRIME numbers look like this:

Prime Walt Frazier (‘70-’76)--529 rs games
Per 100 rs (only have data ‘74-’76): 23.0 pts, 7.2 reb, 7.1 ast, 2.4 stl, 0.2 blk on .546 TS%
19.8 PER, .191 WS/48, 96 DRtg (‘74-’76; league avg in that span was 97.9) in 41.2 mpg
Per 100 ps (‘74-’76): 26.9 pts, 9.1 reb, 5.4 ast, 2.5 stl, 0.3 blk on .564 TS%
19.9 PER, .198 WS/48, 98 DRtg (league avg those years-->97.7) in 43.3 mpg

wrt to defense, Stockton’s DRtg (relative to league average) is marginally BETTER than Frazier’s (for the years we have data for Frazier). I know some don’t like DRtg as a stat, though, so I think it’s worth noting Stockton’s DRAPM data (only available for his post-prime): he has a net-positive effect defensively ALL SIX SEASONS of his post-prime, usually fairly significantly so. In ‘00, his DRAPM is +3.06, which was BETTER than ‘00 Shaq (+2.31) and ‘00 Tim Duncan (+2.78). This in spite of the data (shutupandjam?) presented wrt the average PG being a defensive negative.
His league rank in combined RAPM for those years was as follows:

‘98---7th
‘99---8th
‘00---8th
‘01---3rd (NPI)
‘02---12th
‘03---13th

vs. Nash….
Both his prime and career ast/100 possession numbers are better than those of Steve Nash, for both rs and playoffs.
Both his prime and career individual ORtg’s are better than those of Steve Nash for the rs, and are tied with Steve Nash’s for the playoffs.

Stockton has the longevity case over Nash (smallish margin) and Frazier (large margin).

idk, all things included, Stockton has a big-time case for this spot, imo. My vote for #24: John Stockton.

[trex_8063]

Also.....

Best 12-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘86-’97): 29.8
2. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): 28.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’71): 27.4
4. David Robinson (‘90-’01): 27.1
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’82): 26.9
6. Karl Malone (‘90-’01): 26.0
7. Charles Barkley (‘86-’97): 25.5
8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): 25.3
9. Kevin Garnett (‘98-’09): 24.8
t10. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’97): 24.7
t10. *Julius Erving (‘72-’83): 24.7 (includes 5 ABA years)
12. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): 24.5
t13. Magic Johnson (‘81-’91, ‘96): 24.4
t13. Kobe Bryant (‘01-’12): 24.4
15. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’72): 24.2
16. Larry Bird (‘81-’92): 23.8
17. Jerry West (‘62-’73): 23.5
18. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): 23.2
19. Tracy McGrady (‘98-’09): 23.1
20. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’70): 22.8
21. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’83): 22.7 (includes 5 ABA years)
22. John Stockton (‘88-’99): 22.6

Best 3-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’73): .330
2. Michael Jordan (‘89-’91): .299
3. Lebron James (‘12-’14): .294
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’64): .291
5. David Robinson (‘94-’96): .286
6. Chris Paul (‘12-’14): .278
7. Kevin Durant (‘12-’14): .275
8. Dirk Nowitzki (‘05-’07): .267
t9. Shaquille O’Neal (‘00-’02): .264
t9. George Mikan (‘52-’54): .264
11. Magic Johnson (‘89-’91): .263
12. Karl Malone (‘97-’99): .261
t13. Charles Barkley (‘89-’91): .259
t13. Neil Johnston (‘54-’56): .259
15. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’06): .254
16. Tim Duncan (‘02-’04): .252
t17. Oscar Robertson (‘64-’66): .250
t17. Jerry West (‘64-’66): .250
t19. Ed Macauley (‘52-’54): .247
t19. *Julius Erving (‘74-’76): .247 (all 3 ABA years)
21. Dolph Schayes (‘53-’55): .244
t22. Larry Bird (‘86-’88): .243
t22. Chauncey Billups (‘06-’08): .243
t24. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’07): .240
t24. Larry Foust (‘54-’56): .240
26. John Stockton (‘88-’90): .237
t27. Dwight Howard (‘09-’11): .231
t27. *Rick Barry (‘67, ‘69-’70): .231 (includes 2 ABA years)
29. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’74): .229 (all 3 ABA years)
30. Bob Pettit (‘57-’59): .228
31. *Connie Hawkins (‘68-’70): .227 (includes 2 ABA years)
t32. Dwyane Wade (‘09-’11): .225
t32. Walt Frazier (‘70-’72): .225
t32. Pau Gasol (‘09-’11): .225
35. Moses Malone (‘81-’83): .222
t36. Harry Gallatin (‘52-’54): .221
t36. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07): .221
t36. Adrian Dantley (‘83-’85): .221
39. Kevin McHale (‘86-’88): .220
40. Bill Russell (‘63-’65): .219
41. Bob McAdoo (‘74-’76): .217
t42. Vern Mikkelsen (‘52-’54): .216
t42. Sidney Moncrief (‘81-’83): .216
44 Steve Nash (‘05-’07): .214

Best 5-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

t1. Michael Jordan (‘88-’92): .296
t1. Lebron James (‘09-’13): .296
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’75): .295
4. David Robinson (‘94-’98): .282
5. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’66): .275
6. Chris Paul (‘08-’12): .263
7. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’03): .260
8. Neil Johnston (‘53-’57): .254
9. Karl Malone (‘96-’00): .252
10. Magic Johnson (‘87-’91): .251
11. Kevin Durant (‘10-’14): .250
12. Charles Barkley (‘87-’91): .249
13. Dirk Nowitzki (‘03-’07): .248
14. Oscar Robertson (‘63-’67): .244
15. Jerry West (‘64-’68): .241
t16. Tim Duncan (‘01-’05): .239
t16. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’08): .239
18. Larry Bird (‘84-’88): .237
19. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’09): .234
20. Dolph Schayes (‘53-’57): .233
21. John Stockton (‘88-’92): .229
22. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’76): .226 (all 5 ABA years)
t23. Chauncey Billups (‘04-’08): .225
t23. *Julius Erving (‘74-’78): .225 (includes 3 ABA years)
25. Bob Pettit (‘57-’61): .222
26. Dwyane Wade (‘09-’13): .219
27. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07): .218
t28. Dwight Howard (‘08-’12): .216
t28. Walt Frazier (‘69-’73): .216
30. Ed Macauley (‘52-’56): .214
t31. Sidney Moncrief (‘82-’86): .212
t31. Adrian Dantley (‘82-’86): .212
t33. Bill Russell (‘61-’65): .211
t33. Kevin McHale (‘84-’88): .211
t35. Moses Malone (‘79-’83): .209
t35. Arvydas Sabonis (‘96-’00): .209
37. Yao Ming (‘04-’08): .207
38. Larry Foust (‘54-’58): .206
39. Pau Gasol (‘08-’12): .205
t40. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘91-’95): .202
t40. Steve Nash (‘03-’07): .202
t40. Reggie Miller (‘94-’98): .202

Best 7-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

t1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93): .285
t1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’77): .285
3. Lebron James (‘08-’14): .283
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’68): .274
5. David Robinson (‘94-’00): .273
6. Chris Paul (‘08-’14): .267
7. Shaquille O’Neal (‘97-’03): .248
8. Neil Johnston (‘52-’58): .245
9. Magic Johnson (‘85-’91): .243
t10. Karl Malone (‘95-’01): .241
t10. Charles Barkley (‘87-’93): .241
t10. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’07): .241
13. Jerry West (‘64-’70): .237
14. Oscar Robertson (‘62-’68): .236
15. Tim Duncan (‘99-’05): .233
16. Larry Bird (‘82-’88): .231
17. Kevin Garnett (‘02-’08): .230
18. Dolph Schayes (‘52-’58): .229
19. Manu Ginobili (‘06-’12): .224
t20. Bob Pettit (‘55-’61): .220
t20. John Stockton (‘95-’01): .220
22. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’78): .217 (includes 5 ABA years)
23. Chauncey Billups (‘03-’09): .215
24. *Julius Erving (‘74-’80): .212 (includes 3 ABA years)
25. Bill Russell (‘59-’65): .211
26. Adrian Dantley (‘82-’88): .207
t27. Kevin Durant (‘08-’14): .205
t27. Sidney Moncrief (‘80-’86): .205
t29. Dwyane Wade (‘07-’13): .203
t29. Moses Malone (‘79-’85): .203
31. Kevin McHale (‘84-’90): .202
32. Kobe Bryant (‘03-’09): .201
t33. Arvydas Sabonis (‘96-’01, ‘03): .200
t33. Yao Ming (‘03-’09): .200
t35. Walt Frazier (‘69-’75): .199
t35. Ed Macauley (‘52-’58): .199

Best 10-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93, ‘95-97): .286
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’80): .271
3. David Robinson (‘91-’00): .261
4. Lebron James (‘05-’14): .260
5. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’69): .259
6. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’03): .241
7. Karl Malone (‘91-’00): .235
8. Magic Johnson (‘82-’91): .231
9. Charles Barkley (‘87-’96): .230
10. Jerry West (‘64-’73): .229
11. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’10): .227
12. Tim Duncan (‘99-’08): .225
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’70): .224
14. John Stockton (‘88-’97): .221
15. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’13): .217
t16. Larry Bird (‘80-’89): .216
t16. Kevin Garnett (‘00-’09): .216
t16. *Julius Erving (‘74-’83): .216 (includes 3 ABA years)
19. Bob Pettit (‘55-’64): .214
20. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’81): .211 (includes 5 ABA years)
21. Dolph Schayes (‘51-’61): .206
t22. Bill Russell (‘58-’67): .202
t22. Chauncey Billups (‘02-’11): .202
24. Kobe Bryant (‘00-’09): .201
25. Dwyane Wade (‘05-’14): .200
26. Adrian Dantley (‘79-’88): .199
27. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’95): .194
t28. Moses Malone (‘79-’88): .193
t28. Sidney Moncrief (‘80-’89): .193
t30. Kevin McHale (‘82-’91): .192
t30. Reggie Miller (‘90-’99): .192

Best 12-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘86-’93, ‘95-’98): .279
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’82): .262
3. David Robinson (‘90-’01): .258
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’71): .251
5. Karl Malone (‘89-’00): .236
6. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): .234
7. Magic Johnson (‘81-’91, ‘96): .229
8. Charles Barkley (‘88-’99): .227
9. Jerry West (‘62-’73): .224
10. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): .223
11. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): .222
12. John Stockton (‘88-’99): .220
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’72): .217
14. Kevin Garnett (‘00-’11): .211
t15. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’14): .209
t15. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’83): .209 (includes 5 ABA years)
17. *Julius Erving (‘73-’84): .208 (includes 4 ABA years)
18. Larry Bird (‘80-’91): .205
19. Chauncey Billups (‘02-’13): .200
t20. Bill Russell (‘57-’68): .196
t20. Kobe Bryant (‘00-’11): .196
t20. Adrian Dantley (‘77-’88): .196
23. Dolph Schayes (‘52-’63): .195
t24. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘85-’96): .189
t24. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): .189
t26. Kevin McHale (‘81-’92): .186
t26. Reggie Miller (‘90-’01): .186

Best 3-Year ORtg/DRtg gap (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Tyson Chandler (‘11-’13): 29
2. Dikembe Mutombo (‘06-’08): 27
3. Chris Andersen (‘12-’14): 26
4. Chris Paul (‘12-’14): 23
5. David Robinson (‘94-’96): 22
t6. Michael Jordan (‘89-’91): 21
t6. John Stockton (‘88-’90): 21
t6. Horace Grant (‘91-’93): 21
t6. Dennis Rodman (‘90-’92): 21
t10. Lebron James (‘12-’14): 20
t10. Magic Johnson (‘89-’91): 20
t10. Charles Barkley (‘88-’90): 20
t10. Pau Gasol (‘09-’11): 20
t14. Tim Duncan (‘02-’04): 19
t14. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’06): 19
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘05-’07): 19
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘81-’83): 19
t14. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’07): 19
t14. Cedric Maxwell (‘79-’81): 19
t20. Dwight Howard (‘09-’11): 18
t20. Kevin McHale (‘86-’88): 18
t20. Kevin Durant (‘12-’14): 18
t20. Sidney Moncrief (‘81-’83): 18
t20. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’77): 18 (includes 2 ABA years)
t25. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’80): 17
t25. Shaquille O’Neal (‘00-’02): 17
t25. Ben Wallace (‘02-’04): 17
t25. Larry Bird (‘85-’87): 17
t25. Karl Malone (‘97-’99): 17
t25. Shawn Marion (‘05-’07): 17
t25. Joakim Noah (‘11-’13): 17
t25. *Julius Erving (‘74-’76): 17 (all 3 ABA seasons)
33. Brad Daugherty (‘92-’94): 16
t34. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘91-’93): 15
t34. Robert Parish (‘81-’83): 15
t34. Reggie Miller (‘93-’95): 15
t34. Hersey Hawkins (‘96-’98): 15
t34. Larry Nance (‘91-’93): 15
t34. Shawn Kemp (‘94-’96): 15
t34. Detlef Schrempf (‘95-’97): 15
t34. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’83): 15
t34. Marcus Camby (‘99-’01): 15
t34. Jeff Hornacek (‘95-’97): 15
t44. Moses Malone (‘81-’83): 14
t44. Scottie Pippen (‘96-’98): 14
t44. Alonzo Mourning (‘98-’00): 14
t44. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07 or ‘07-’09): 14
t44. Sam Perkins (‘95-’97): 14
t49. Steve Nash (‘05-’07): 13
t49. Patrick Ewing (‘92-’94): 13
t49. Adrian Dantley (‘86-’88): 13
t49. James Harden (‘12-’14): 13
t49. Marc Gasol (‘11-’13): 13

Best 5-Year ORtg/DRtg gap (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Chris Andersen (‘10-’14): 25
2. Tyson Chandler (‘10-’14): 24
3. Chris Paul (‘10-’14): 22
4. David Robinson (‘97-’01): 21
t5. Michael Jordan (‘88-’92): 20
t5. Lebron James (‘09-’13): 20
t7. Charles Barkley (‘87-’91): 19
t7. John Stockton (‘88-’92): 19
t7. Horace Grant (‘91-’95): 19
t7. Dikembe Mutombo (‘04-’08): 19
t11. Tim Duncan (‘02-’06): 18
t11. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’08): 18
t11. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’82): 18
t14. Dennis Rodman (‘89-’93): 17
t14. Magic Johnson (‘87-’91): 17
t14. Kevin McHale (‘84-’88): 17
t14. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’82): 17
t14. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’08): 17
t14. Larry Bird (‘83-’87): 17
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘03-’07): 17
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘81-’85): 17
t14. *Julius Erving (‘74-’78): 17 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t23. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’03): 16
t23. Dwight Howard (‘08-’12): 16
t23. Kevin Durant (‘10-’14): 16
t23. Bobby Jones (‘80-’84): 16
t23. Pau Gasol (‘08-’12): 16
t23. Sidney Moncrief (‘81-’85): 16
t29. Karl Malone (‘96-’00 or ‘89-’93): 15
t29. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’09): 15
t29. Larry Nance (‘89-’93): 15
t29. Ben Wallace (‘02-’06): 15
t29. Marcus Camby (‘99-’03): 15
t29. Joakim Noah (‘09-’13 or ‘10-’14): 15
t29. Jeff Hornacek (‘95-’99): 15
t36. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘90-’94): 14
t36. Robert Parish (‘81-’85): 14
t36. Reggie Miller (‘91-’95): 14
t36. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’85): 14
t40. Moses Malone (‘79-’83): 13
t40. Scottie Pippen (‘94-’98): 13
t40. Shawn Marion (‘04-’08): 13
t40. Adrian Dantley (‘84-’88): 13
t40. Shawn Kemp (‘92-’96): 13
t40. Detlef Schrempf (‘94-’98): 13
t46. Steve Nash (‘03-’07): 12
t46. James Harden (‘10-’14): 12
t46. Alonzo Mourning (‘96-’00): 12
t46. Hersey Hawkins (‘94-’98): 12
t46. Brad Daugherty (‘90-’94): 12
t46. Ray Allen (‘08-’12): 12
t46. Sam Perkins (‘93-’97): 12
t46. Marc Gasol (‘10-’14): 12

Best 7-Year ORtg/DRtg gap (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Chris Andersen (‘08-’14): 23
2. David Robinson (‘95-’01): 22
3. Tyson Chandler (‘08-’14): 21
4. Chris Paul (‘08-’14): 20
t5. Lebron James (‘08-’14): 19
t5. John Stockton (‘95-’01): 19
t7. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93): 18
t7. Horace Grant (‘91-’97): 18
t9. Dennis Rodman (‘89-’95): 17
t9. Tim Duncan (‘02-’08): 17
t9. Magic Johnson (‘85-’91): 17
t9. Larry Bird (‘82-’88): 17
t9. Kevin Garnett (‘03-’09): 17
t9. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’07): 17
t9. Charles Barkley (‘87-’93): 17
t9. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’81): 17 (includes 2 ABA years)
t17. Artis Gilmore (‘79-’85): 16
t17. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’10 or ‘06-’12): 16
t17. Sidney Moncrief (‘80-’86): 16
t20. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’84): 15
t20. Shaquille O’Neal (‘97-’03): 15
t20. Karl Malone (‘95-’01): 15
t20. Kevin McHale (‘84-’90): 15
t20. Dikembe Mutombo (‘02-’08): 15
t25. Reggie Miller (‘91-’97): 14
t25. Dwight Howard (‘08-’14): 14
t25. Larry Nance (‘87-’93): 14
t25. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’84): 14
t25. Joakim Noah (‘08-’14): 14
t25. Pau Gasol (‘05-’11): 14
t25. *Julius Erving (‘74-’80): 14 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t32. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘88-’94): 13
t32. Shawn Marion (‘01-’07): 13
t32. Ben Wallace (‘00-’06): 13
t32. Detlef Schrempf (‘92-’98): 13
t32. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’87): 13
t37. Moses Malone (‘79-’85): 12
t37. Robert Parish (‘81-’87): 12
t37. Scottie Pippen (‘92-’98): 12
t37. Adrian Dantley (‘82-’88): 12
t37. Marcus Camby (‘99-’05): 12
t37. Jeff Hornacek (‘94-’00): 12
t43. Steve Nash (‘02-’08): 11
t43. Alonzo Mourning (‘95-’01): 11
t43. Patrick Ewing (‘89-’95): 11
t43. Shawn Kemp (‘91-’97): 11
t43. Sam Perkins (‘91-’97): 11
t43. Ray Allen (‘08-’14): 11

Best 10-Year ORtg/DRtg gap (rs)

Spoiler:

1. David Robinson (‘91-’00): 21
t2. Michael Jordan (‘88-’93, ‘95-’98): 19
t2. Chris Andersen (‘04-’06, ‘08-’14): 19
t4. John Stockton (‘88-’97): 18
t4. Tyson Chandler (‘05-’14): 18
t6. Magic Johnson (‘82-’91): 17
t6. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’84): 17 (includes 2 ABA years)
t8. Lebron James (‘05-’14): 16
t8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’08): 16
t8. Kevin Garnett (‘03-’12): 16
t8. Charles Barkley (‘86-’95): 16
t8. Dennis Rodman (‘88-’97): 16
t8. Dikembe Mutombo (‘99-’08): 16
t14. Larry Bird (‘80-’89): 15
t14. Sidney Moncrief (‘80-’89): 15
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’10): 15
t14. Karl Malone (‘90-’99 or ‘89-’98): 15
t14. Horace Grant (‘90-’99): 15
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘77-’86): 15
t14. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’12): 15
t21. Kevin McHale (‘82-’91): 14
t21. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’87): 14
t21. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’03): 14
t21. Reggie Miller (‘91-’00): 14
t21. Ben Wallace (‘98-’07): 14
t21. *Julius Erving (‘74-’83): 14 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t27. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’95): 13
t27. Larry Nance (‘84-’93): 13
t29. Shawn Marion (‘00-’09): 12
t29. Robert Parish (‘82-’91): 12
t29. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’87): 12
t29. Detlef Schrempf (‘90-’99 or ‘91-’00): 12
t29. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’90): 12
t34. Moses Malone (‘79-’88): 11
t34. Dwight Howard (‘05-’14): 11
t34. Marcus Camby (‘99-’08): 11
t34. Jeff Hornacek (‘90-’99): 11
t34. Pau Gasol (‘03-’12): 11
t39. Scottie Pippen (‘91-’00): 10
t39. Sam Perkins (‘90-’99): 10
t39. Patrick Ewing (‘89-’98): 10
t39. Adrian Dantley (‘79-’88): 10
t39. Alonzo Mourning (‘94-’02, ‘04): 10
t39. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’14): 10
t45. Steve Nash (‘01-’10): 9
t45. Dwyane Wade (‘05-’14): 9
t45. Hersey Hawkins (‘90-’99): 9
t45. Shawn Kemp (‘90-’99): 9

Best 12-Year ORtg/DRtg gap (rs)

Spoiler:

1. David Robinson (90-’01): 21
2. Michael Jordan (‘86-’93, ‘95-’98): 19
3. John Stockton (‘88-’99): 18
4. Magic Johnson (‘80-’91): 17
t5. Charles Barkley (‘87-’98): 16
t5. Tyson Chandler (‘03-’14): 16
t5. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’86): 16 (includes 2 ABA years)
t8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): 15
t8. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): 15
t8. Karl Malone (‘89-’00): 15
t8. Dennis Rodman (‘87-’98): 15
t8. Dikembe Mutombo (‘97-’08): 15
t8. Chris Andersen (‘02-’’06, ‘08-14): 15
t8. *Artis Gilmore (‘74-’85): 15 (includes 3 ABA years)
t15. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): 14
t15. Larry Bird (‘80-’91): 14
t15. Kevin Garnett (‘01-’12): 14
t15. Horace Grant (‘91-’02): 14
t15. Reggie Miller (‘93-’04): 14
t15. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’14): 14
t21. Kevin McHale (‘81-’92): 13
t21. Larry Nance (‘83-’94): 13
t21. *Julius Erving (‘74-’85): 13 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t24. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’89): 12
t24. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘85-’96): 12
t24. Robert Parish (‘81-’92): 12
t24. Ben Wallace (‘98-’09 or ‘99-’10): 12
t28. Adrian Dantley (‘78-’89): 11
t28. Detlef Schrempf (‘89-’00): 11
t28. Maurice Cheeks (‘80-’91): 11
t28. Marcus Camby (‘99-’10): 11
t28. Jeff Hornacek (‘89-’00): 11
t33. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): 10
t33. Shawn Marion (‘00-’11): 10
t33. Pau Gasol (‘02-’13): 10
t36. Scottie Pippen (‘91-’02): 9
t36. Steve Nash (‘01-’12): 9
t36. Patrick Ewing (‘88-’99): 9
t36. Alonzo Mourning (‘93-’02, ‘04-’05): 9
t36. Sam Perkins (‘88-’99): 9

[colts18]

1. Why did you only post select PS series for Nash and completely leave off the Dallas years?

Because the case for Nash rests mostly on his Phoenix career. He had a great 8 year run there. I made a case for Shaq in this forum, but I don't usually do it using series from his Miami career. Mostly focus on his on 8 year Lakers run just like I focus on Nash's 8 year Suns run. Plus I don't know as much about Nash's Mavs career because I wasn't paying attention to him then.

2. Why so much emphasis on team offense? If we are going to consider a team accomplishment, a Nash accomplishment, then shouldn't we ask more questions about why his teams never made a Finals? And if we are going to not hold him accountable for team playoff success then why so much credit for team offense. Especially in light of the offensive talent he played with and the coaches he played for.

The focus on offense is because its easy to measure his impact on it. A PG has more of an impact on offense than defense. Nash ran historical offenses annually. No one else can say that.

Nash can't be blamed for the lack of finals. For one, his performance improved in the playoffs (individual stats, team offense). 2nd, his team had bad luck during their best runs (Joe Johnson injury for a team with no depth, Amare injury, the Horry suspensions). Nash's Suns teams never lost to an inferior opponent.


Lots of stars have had talented offensive players around them (Bird, Magic, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, etc.) yet none of them were consistently putting up the historical offenses that Nash put up. I doubt that Nash's offensive casts were that much better than Magics or Bird's offensive casts.

3. What do you make of the 05 Mavs in light of losing a player you view this highly, both in terms of w/l and team offense. Does it make you question giving Nash so much credit for the 02-04 Mavs offense? I noticed you looked at the before and after in Phoenix so its clear you value this analysis. Was it an oversight that you didn't do so with Dallas?

I do think that Nash was an all-star caliber player from 01-03. But I think 04 was not one of them. It was a down year for him which is why he wasn't good. The 04 Mavs didn't perform that badly. They statistically had the best offense in NBA history. The 05 Mavs once you adjust for easier offensive environment (getting rid of handchecking), wasn't nearly as good offensively.

The reason the 05 Mavs were better is because Cuban stopped trying to build all-star teams. I have little opinion of Antoine Walker. Getting rid of him is a huge plus. Losing Jamison wasn't much of a loss either. Getting Dampier made them more balanced and helped the defense. Dirk was getting a bigger role in 2005 too. He went from 22/9 in 2004 to 26/10 in 2005. Josh Howard was emerging in 2005 too.

4 Does it concern you at all that he didn't make the most of his early prime because he loved the NBA life more than he loved putting in the work to take care of his body to play more minutes and to not wear down every year in the playoffs while in his 20s?

It does which is why I don't have him ranked higher. If he had better longevity like for example if his 01-04 dallas years were Phoenix-like impact and his 97-00 seasons were like his 01-04 Dallas seasons, I would have him ranked in the top 5-8 all-time. The only reason why he is behind Magic Johnson in my list is because of less prime longevity and rebounding.

[lorak]

Excluding pre shot clock is just lazy approach. Evaluating Mikan isn't really that much different than for example Pettit or Russell. And I would really like to see how people see differences between '54 and '57.

I'm going to vote for Mikan too this time, reasoning was elaborated in previous threads, but in short:

- GOAT level defensive impact;

- he was clearly by far the most important player in Lakers dynasty, they lost only when he was injured;

- even after rule change (lane before '52 season) invented specifically to limit him, Mikan still was the best player and led Minneapolis to three straight titles;

- per 36 stats from '56 indicate he was still very productive, just wasn't able to play more than 20 mpg, because of age/injuries, but his drop off in production after year and a half away from baskeball was stil not worse than Jordan's in the same situation in '95;

- data suggests that pre shot clock players were doing fine in shot clock era, even in early 60s. of course there was some drop off in production, but not as big, especially if we consider age.

- avaliable footage shows that Mikan was very mobile for a man of his size;

- if you think that Mikan dominated because of his height, then explain why +10 other players as big or bigger than Mikan didn't dominated in pre shot clock era.

[RayBan-Sematra]

I am actually considering Gervin for this next spot.
He won't nessasarily be my vote but I feel he might be getting looked over here.

Gervin was an ATG offensive force and scorer.
He actually has pretty good longevitiy (11-12 years)
He has an impressive 8 year playoff prime where he averaged 30/7/3 on 50% shooting.

No he probably wasn't quite on the level as a guy like Wade who was much better defensively and was also a far more capable creator however his longevitiy is far greater then Wade's which makes a comparison between them rather reasonable I would think.

For those who discredit ABA years Gervin might fall lower on your list but since Erving didn't get much flack for that it shouldn't be an issue.

[90sAllDecade]

The same mental gymnastics are played with valuing how good 60s players are to modern players. Some posters wouldn't mind if it was the top players in the post 3pt line era.

That is the true modern era imo and the last major change after the lane widening & ABA merger. Anti Hand checking rules were established before 04-05, with the last change being the most impactful, but not as big a change as the shot clock, ABA merger, 3pt line and two lane widening imo.

Just like some judge players by the rules they dominated with, why are 50s players or Mikan any different?

Ask the voters. I'm not one of them. Every single time this list comes around, people are incapable of ranking Mikan and so the list is restricted to the shot clock era. Since I'm someone who specifically keeps track, I'm wondering why people don't skip ahead to what invariably happens anyway instead of wasting time. Einstein is attributed as saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Yet that's what's happened every time this is done.

Fair enough, I was actually speaking to the room in general. I don't think its a waste of time at all, it's just a new judgement for people. Perhaps if people think about Mikan they might start to question era translation or player rankings and a dialogue starts. Maybe some are opposed to that, maybe not.

I personally have him ranked above Cousy and Schayes, somewhere in the top 50 perhaps. I think it's interesting fleshing out new ideas that aren't often discussed in depth on sports forums. I have to say, I've browsed other basketball forums and this is by far the most concentrated collection of in depth discussions I've seen about historical players.

It's not really of importance, but Einstein actually never said that, nor is it the correct definition of insanity

"The definition of insanity is repeating the same mistakes over and over again and expecting different results,"

..The above quote has been mis-attributed to Albert Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, and Mark Twain. In fact, none of these great minds were responsible for such a convincing, yet blatantly incorrect definition. The first time it actually appeared in print was in a 1981 Narcotics Anonymous text (page 11).

The term insane is outdated parlance in the mental health community. No legitimate medical or clinical professional would be caught dead saying it in public. It's a legal term. A defendant may be found not guilty by reason of insanity if his or her lawyer can provide clear and convincing evidence that he/she was suffering from severe mental illness (i.e., psychotic disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, or organic brain illness) which prevented him/her from knowing that the crime committed was, in fact, an illegal act.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/2 ... 59927.html


He did however speak about the paradox of understanding

“The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible.”
― Albert Einstein