RealGM Top 100 List #88

[penbeast0]

PG: Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, and maybe Mookie Blaylock are the players I'm looking at . . . should mention Penny Hardaway though he never impressed me as much as he did the TV guys of his day.

Forwards: Marques Johnson and Chris Mullin would be the main scorers; maybe Carmelo Anthony though between his season of discontent in Denver and his playoff numbers, I'd have to be persuaded. Billy Cunningham, Bob Dandridge, Chet Walker, and Mitch Richmond also come to mind.

Bigs: Mel Daniels has 2 MVPs and 3 rings, albeit in a weaker league; similarly Neil Johnston has the best raw numbers in an even weaker league than Daniels. Amare Stoudamire and Jerry Lucas bring great numbers but defensive questions (Johnston is defensively questionable too); Bill Walton has the highest peak (though that's it for true career value -- 1 year then failed to stay healthy to the playoffs the next and 1 year as a reserve role player). Maybe Yao Ming should get a mention too.

There are a lot of other good players but as we are into the last quarter, that's my short list.

Chris Mullin v. Mitch Richmond v. Carmelo Anthony v. Marques Johnson; Mel Daniels v. Neil Johnston v. Yao Ming; Tim Hardaway v. Mark Price v. Mookie Blaylock; Jerry Lucas v. Billy Cunningham; those are the other comps I am looking at and would love feedback on.

By the boxscore numbers I go for Jerry Lucas or Chris Mullin. By the eye test I go for Mel Daniels or Marques Johnson.

VOTE Mel Daniels. Do I go for a good player with a long career, or a dominant player with a shorter one. If my goal is to win titles, I think I go for the best 5 year peak. In this case, that's Mel Daniels. 2 time MVP with 3 titles, rebounding titles, physical defense, that's a combination that is very portable and able to be a key component of title winning teams more easily than anyone else except Bill Walton whose run as a key championship component is just too short (1 year).

[Quotatious]

Vote: Dave DeBusschere

Very versatile player - could score (not very efficiently - just about league average TS% in the 60s, but he had a pretty good range on his jumper - I saw him make 20-23 footers a lot of times, and even some shots from today's 3-point land), rebound (11 rebounds per game for his career as a 6'6'' or 6'7'', 220-225 lbs forward), quite possibly the best non-center defender of his era, good passer, very unselfish, smart, played with tremendous effort every game, and had some of the best "intangibles" of any player in NBA history. Excellent athlete, too (played in two pro leagues - NBA and briefly also in the MLB). Pretty good longevity - 10 year prime, and there are indications that he could've played a few more years on a high level, if he wanted to - in his last season, '73-'74, he averaged almost 18/11/4, and had probably the best scoring season of his career.

His advanced metrics are really mediocre, but he seems to be one of those guys who's impact goes beyond boxscore numbers. He was just a workhorse out there on the court, and he really reminds me of John Havlicek and especially Dave Cowens (Hondo is in since #30, Cowens since #52).
Also, how about the fact that DeBusschere became a player-coach at age 24? Speaks volumes about his basketball acumen and leadership qualities.

Let's take a look at the '68-'69 Knicks, as an example of DeBusschere's impact - before the Bellamy/DeBusschere trade, Knicks were 18-16, 52.9% W (with Bellamy), after the trade, they were 36-11, 76.6% W (with DeBusschere). Considering that New York didn't make any other changes to their roster (well, they also lost their backup point guard Howard Komives, who was traded to Detroit along with Bellamy), that's instant impact personified, right there.

[Owly]

Bill Sharman

One of only two best players of (complete) decade at a position that isn't in yet (the other would be 60s PF, assuming you consider Pettit primarily 50s, and Baylor a SF, though if you move Baylor you just make it SF the position that isn't represented). And unlike the alternate spot (where I have Howell, but others will prefer others) Sharman is clearly ahead of the rest of the pack.

Sharman is one of only a handful of 50 at 50 guys still on the board (Dave Bing, Dave DeBusschere, Jerry Lucas, Pete Maravich, Earl Monroe, Bill Walton, Lenny Wilkens and James Worthy, I believe are the others).

Prior reasoning

As before I've a number of viable candidates but I'm going to

vote Bill Sharman

My rationale last time

Best shooter of his era. Best player at his position of his decade (OTOH the last one of these left, and a good distance ahead of the pack). Good athlete - committed to conditioning; good defender; very tough/competitive (including getting into/winning fights); good basketball mind (his coaching career, including titles in the ABL, ABA and NBA offers support for this).

To expand on best player at his position of his decade (and here I'll assume only one decade for each player), that wasn't quite true, looking at it we don't yet have a 60s PF yet (assuming Baylor is considered a small forward), which would give me another reason to support Bailey Howell. And obviously neither of those guys are at these guys level. And it's not to suggest that these people were good or ranked highly (solely) because they separated themselves from their peers at their position (inevitably most of the top 25 will will be top of their position-decade ranking).

50s
C Mikan (24)
PF Pettit (21)
SF Arizin (63)
SG
PG Cousy (71)

60s
C Russell (3)
PF
SF Baylor (33)
SG West (15)
PG Robertson (12)

70s
C Abdul-Jabbar (2)
PF Hayes (58)
SF Erving (14)
SG Gervin (38)
PG Frazier (28)

80s
C M Malone (19)
PF McHale (44)
SF Bird (10)
SG Moncrief (66)
PG Magic Johnson (8)

90s
C O'Neal (6)
PF K Malone (17)
SF Pippen (27)
SG Jordan (1)
PG Stockton (26)

2000 (to present because of incomplete decade)
C Howard (43)
PF Duncan (5)
SF James (7)
SG Bryant (13)
PG Nash (25)

Still, I think there is some value in being the best at your position or role in your time, because unless you think you can field a team exclusively of bigs then you need to put someone at each position (or it least in each role and fill out different skill sets). And Sharman isn't narrowly the best SG of the 50s (whereas whilst I have Howell at the top of 60s PFs I see that others might take Lucas, DeBusschere, Heinsohn or Connie Hawkins), he's a good distance ahead of the pack (particularly if you don't consider Ramsay a SG, Carl Braun is probably the next best SG). I just think Sharman therefore added significantly to his team's title chances.

Obviously era competition is a factor but I'd suggest that he's been sufficiently docked for that.

The more "pure" off guards of the 50s and 60s don't have blow you away metrics in part because of their role. But versus say Greer is it better to be the best in a weaker era or 3rd (West, S Jones voted above him) in a slightly stronger one. Sharman's metrics are clear that he is consistently adding value over "good" by the metrics, Greer isn't; part of that could be the SG role limiting boxscore output but that hurts Sharman too. Greer has longevity but if part of that is the league playing 82 game seasons rather than 70 how much help is that? How much value does longevity hold when your boxscore output peaks at .0.1651 WS/48 and PER peaks at 17.7 (with .124 and 15.7 career numbers)? Okay there's non boxscore stuff too but Sharman was committed to conditioning and a strong defender. Other anchoring arguments might involve Cousy (same era, broadly similar metrics overall, holding up better in the playoffs and being better on D) or Miller (similar roles as floor spacer shooter, on high-ish volumes but not renowned off the bounce creators).

Sharman as best shooter at the guard positions of his era ...

Clearcut best shooter at guard in his era, see for instance :

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =ws_per_48
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _by=ts_pct
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _by=ft_pct

[SactoKingsFan]

Vote: Mitch Richmond

89 ROY (22 PTS, 5.9 REB and 4.2 AST per game)
6x All-Star
5x All-NBA (3x 2nd, 2x 3rd)

Prime Richmond (91-98):
30.8 PTS, 5.2 AST, 5.3 REB, 7.9 FTA, 3.8 TOV per 100 on 56.4 TS%, 40.1 3PT%, 84.7 FT%

18.4 PER, .330 FTr, 18.1 AST%, 12.1 TOV%, .122 WS/48

Highly portable skill-set, would be even better playing in current NBA. Very good 3PT shooter, effective post and mid range game, good at penetrating and drawing fouls, solid defender and very strong/tough for a wing.

Although Richmond's long range shooting peaked when the 3 PT line was shortened, he was still a well above league average 3 PT shooter (38% | +5.1) prior to 95-97, when the line was moved in to 22 feet.

Prime TS% and 3PT%:
Richmond (compared to league avg.)

TS%: 56.4 (+2.9) | 3 PT%: 40.1 (+5.7)

Richmond has the third most seasons with at least 30 PTS per 100, 55.0 TS%, 38.0 3 PT% and 5 3PA per 100.

Most seasons w/ TS% >= 55.0, 3 PT% >= 38.0, PTS per 100 >= 30.0, 3PA per 100 >= 5.0:

Reggie Miller = 6
Ray Allen = 5
Mitch Richmond = 4

I can't be the only poster on this board who thinks that's impressive, especially after considering the weak supporting casts he played with in SAC. His TS% and 3 PT% would likely be higher had he played on better teams and/or in the current NBA with greater emphasis on efficiency, spacing and 3 point shooting.

Can't really fault him for the Kings struggles throughout his prime since the FO failed to put anything resembling a decent supporting cast around Richmond.

Prime Richmond's best teammates in SAC (92-98):

Lionel Simmons
Wayman Tisdale
Spud Webb
Walt Williams
Olden Polynice
Brian Grant
Antoine Carr

Was on the 96 Olympic Team full of surefire HoFers (Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, DRob, Shaq, Pippen, Stockton, Miller) and didn't look like a fish out of water.

Highlight video of Richmond scoring 47 points in 95 against the Rockets:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fr9GuMvpMQ[/youtube]

37 points while leading the overmatched Kings over the Sonics in 1st round game of 96 playoffs:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIH07X12M2Q[/youtube]

Quotes from teammate Chris Mullin and Kings GM Jerry Reynolds:

From Sacramento Bee

Chris Mullin:

From his first practice, Mitch seemed like he was already an All-Star player, Mullin said. From the first day I saw him practice with us, he had a full NBA game. Confident, but quietly confident. He had a post game, he was a two-way player. He played offense and defense and he had an incredible rookie year.

From SLAM Online

Jerry Reynolds:

Mitch wasn’t a flashy player, says Jerry Reynolds, the Kings’ GM when they traded for Richmond in 1991. He was just a very solid, throwback kind of player. He was a guy you could just plug in there. Like a terrific hitter in baseball, you just put him in the lineup and he was gonna get you 25 points and guard his position.

Most of the 2-guards in the League were half scared of him, recalls Reynolds. If they knocked him down, they’d run over and pick him up. They didn’t want Mitch mad. He got the nickname Rock for a reason. He didn’t back down from anybody. He was kind of the Karl Malone of 2-guards.

Everybody liked and really respected him, says Reynolds. He was a leader and a no-nonsense guy.

[justinian]

can Amare be considered at this point?

[SactoKingsFan]

can Amare be considered at this point?

He's one of my top remaining bigs, but I still have Richmond, Kemp and a few other players ahead of Amar'e.

[Joao Saraiva]

Vote: Mitch Richmond

89 ROY (22 PTS, 5.9 REB and 4.2 AST per game)
6x All-Star
5x All-NBA (3x 2nd, 2x 3rd)

Prime Richmond (91-98):
30.8 PTS, 5.2 AST, 5.3 REB, 7.9 FTA, 3.8 TOV per 100 on 56.4 TS%, 40.1 3PT%, 84.7 FT%

18.4 PER, .330 FTr, 18.1 AST%, 12.1 TOV%, .122 WS/48

Highly portable skill-set, would be even better playing in current NBA. Very good 3PT shooter, effective post and mid range game, good at penetrating and drawing fouls, solid defender and very strong/tough for a wing.

Although Richmond's long range shooting peaked when the 3 PT line was shortened, he was still a well above league average 3 PT shooter (38% | +5.1) prior to 95-97, when the line was moved in to 22 feet.

Prime TS% and 3PT%:
Richmond (compared to league avg.)

TS%: 56.4 (+2.9) | 3 PT%: 40.1 (+5.7)

Richmond has the third most seasons with at least 30 PTS per 100, 55.0 TS%, 38.0 3 PT% and 5 3PA per 100.

Most seasons w/ TS% >= 55.0, 3 PT% >= 38.0, PTS per 100 >= 30.0, 3PA per 100 >= 5.0:

Reggie Miller = 6
Ray Allen = 5
Mitch Richmond = 4

I can't be the only poster on this board who thinks that's impressive, especially after considering the weak supporting casts he played with in SAC. His TS% and 3 PT% would likely be higher had he played on better teams and/or in the current NBA with greater emphasis on efficiency, spacing and 3 point shooting.

Can't really fault him for the Kings struggles throughout his prime since the FO failed to put anything resembling a decent supporting cast around Richmond.

Prime Richmond's best teammates in SAC (92-98):

Lionel Simmons
Wayman Tisdale
Spud Webb
Walt Williams
Olden Polynice
Brian Grant
Antoine Carr

Was on the 96 Olympic Team full of surefire HoFers (Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, DRob, Shaq, Pippen, Stockton, Miller) and didn't look like a fish out of water.

Highlight video of Richmond scoring 47 points in 95 against the Rockets:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fr9GuMvpMQ[/youtube]

37 points while leading the overmatched Kings over the Sonics in 1st round game of 96 playoffs:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIH07X12M2Q[/youtube]

Quotes from teammate Chris Mullin and Kings GM Jerry Reynolds:

From Sacramento Bee

Chris Mullin:

From his first practice, Mitch seemed like he was already an All-Star player, Mullin said. From the first day I saw him practice with us, he had a full NBA game. Confident, but quietly confident. He had a post game, he was a two-way player. He played offense and defense and he had an incredible rookie year.

From SLAM Online

Jerry Reynolds:

Mitch wasn’t a flashy player, says Jerry Reynolds, the Kings’ GM when they traded for Richmond in 1991. He was just a very solid, throwback kind of player. He was a guy you could just plug in there. Like a terrific hitter in baseball, you just put him in the lineup and he was gonna get you 25 points and guard his position.

Most of the 2-guards in the League were half scared of him, recalls Reynolds. If they knocked him down, they’d run over and pick him up. They didn’t want Mitch mad. He got the nickname Rock for a reason. He didn’t back down from anybody. He was kind of the Karl Malone of 2-guards.

Everybody liked and really respected him, says Reynolds. He was a leader and a no-nonsense guy.

Great post. I haven't voted for a while, but this convinced me he deserves this spot. My vote goes to Richmond.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #88 - Carmelo Anthony

- 12 year career
- 6x all NBA (2 2nd, 4 3rd)
- 1 top 3 and 1 top 10 MVP finish
- 1x scoring champ

REG SEASON 06-14

26.3 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 3.2 APG, 1.1 SPG, .5 BPG, 46.1% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 81.7% FT, 55.4% TS, .149 WS/48, 110 ORTG, 10.9% TO

PLAYOFFS 06-13

27 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.3 SPG, .4 BPG, 42.1% FG, 32.9% 3PT, 82.8% FT, 51.9% TS, .124 WS/48, 107 ORTG, 9.9% TO

Peak carmelo developed into one of the best offensive players in the league. The “iso melo” stigma really became an outdated narrative as you saw all he really needed was a decent PG rotation to keep the ball moving (a little different, but billups certainly got the best out of him in denver). He became one of the better off the ball players in 12-13, actually shooting more efficiently and on higher volume than durant in catch and shoot situations. His transition to a great 3 pt shooter also opened up his game, and he stepped into transition 3s about as well as anyone in the league.

He’s obviously known for his great post up and face up game, but not acknowledged as much for being a great offensive rebounder for his position. He has a deceptively quick 2nd jump and soft touch around the rim for put backs. He also possesses a unique rolling spin move to the hoop i’m not sure anyone else in the league has. The one thing he’s really average at is finishing at the rim, and i’d say that partially has to do with him not being able to take advantage of the way the game is called these days. He isn’t a freak show athlete like lebron, and he doesn’t have those long strides like durant / harden where they know the angles and draw fouls as easily as they do.

And yes, carmelo has lingering knee issues this year, but it’s a lost season, and i’d at least apply some some context to the situation. If he were in a playoff push, maybe this would’ve been dealt with earlier, or he would’ve been playing through it it anyway. I expect him to come back healthy next season.

Carmelo had the full repertoire going with his career high 62 pts against charlotte last season (they ranked 5th in DRTG):

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeYmRC0hFJc[/youtube]

I then look at someone like dominique, who was voted in at #61, and I think a 20+ spot gap between the two is pushing it. Take a look at how they compare over their first 11 seasons (dominique actually comes off as worse if you look at his whole career):

http://bkref.com/tiny/KSWoH

They’re very comparable in most areas, and carmelo actually comes out as the better postseason performer, something wilkins was well criticized for, but still managed to get voted in much earlier.

I think carmelo would’ve fit in about as well as bosh had he come together with lebron and wade in 2010. The only difference would be focusing a little more on signing centers to bolster the interior D (which was lacking anyway in the 2013 + 2014 finals). Again, I don’t see carmelo having an issue with playing more off the ball and spreading the floor at the 4 instead of running the offense through him. He's also shown chemistry specifically with lebron over the years, and their friendship certainly wouldn't hurt, either.

There always seemed to be this all or nothing evaluation of carmelo where he’d be expected to be as good as lebron / durant (which he obviously isn’t), or he’s barely a top 20 player in the league. You may want to fault him for forcing his way to NY, but let’s not pretend like many players voted in already haven’t done the same.

ronnymac brings up a good point about low turnovers being a plus for high usage players. Below are are 20+ PPG scorers in the playoffs (excluding centers) sorted by TO% (best to worst):

http://bkref.com/tiny/HO11E

Of course there are guys at the “bottom” who were very successful, but the lower TO% can help offset some of the decrease in efficiency we see with carmelo in the playoffs. 25 of the 34 players on this list have already been voted in, and only 1 of those players (gus williams) has played in more playoff games then carmelo, so I think he has a good case for this spot.

As an aside, I think it’s pretty interesting to see guys like jordan and iverson with such low TO%s in the playoffs. Also would’ve never known ben gordon was a 20 PPG scorer in the playoffs for his career

Then we get to the clutch play. 82games.com looked at shot data from 04-09 in the reg season + 04-08 in the post season. Carmelo was 6th in the league in game winners, but #1 in the league by far in FG% on game winners at 48.1%:

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

By 2011, he already had enough game winners to choose from to create a top 10 for his career:

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0vMD_CTYY[/youtube]

For clutch data from 2000-2012, carmelo was 7th in the league in FG%, and 50% of his FGs were assisted, which is interesting to note for being criticized for holding the ball too long.

http://bit.ly/1wnySdJ

[I’d obviously prefer eFG% or TS% for these figures, but they weren’t available here]

I’m aware that he hasn’t been quite as clutch over the last few seasons, but i attribute some of that to fatigue (he led the league in MPG last season) and the makeup of his teams. He’s still had his fair share of clutch moments since coming to NY, and hit multiple game winners during his first season here. He did give us this gem in 2012, as well:

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9neM8by1SQ[/youtube]

Carmelo gets a decent amount of flack for his playoff resume, and I think it’s a little overstated, so I’d like to provide some context for each season. It also seems to get pushed aside that making the playoffs 10 seasons in a row is no big deal or something, especially when the majority of them came out west. Below is carmelo’s team SRS rank and the opponent’s SRS rank that he lost to in the playoffs.

CARMELO SRS RANK / OPPONENT SRS RANK

04 - 11th / 2nd
05 - 10th / 1st (eventual NBA champion spurs)
06 - 15th / 9th
07 - 9th / 1st (eventual NBA champion spurs)
08 - 11th / 2nd
09 - 8th / 3rd (eventual NBA champion lakers)
10 - 8th / 3rd
11 - 15th / 6th
12 - 11th / 4th (eventual NBA champion heat)
13 - 7th / 9th

Aside from 2013, the team he lost to has always been favored in SRS, with 4 of the 10 series losses coming to the eventual NBA champs. To me, this doesn’t reflect a player who’s come up short when he’s been expected to go farther in the playoffs. You can make the argument that if he was a better player, he may have been favored in more series, but that only goes so far. It’s clear that he hasn’t been as fortunate as some other players as far as who he’s played with. Some more details on his recent playoff loses:

09 - This run to the WCF almost gets glossed over at times. Nuggets were 2 wins away from the finals, losing to the eventual NBA champion lakers, who were just flat out the better team. He had some great performances during that run.

11 - Billups gets hurt in game 1 against boston (out for rest of series), then amare gets hurt in game 2 only playing 17 min. First 2 games are decided by 2 and 3 points respectively. Tony douglas forced to play PG for the rest of the series, basically putting it out of reach.

12 - Disastrous # of injuries. Tyson chandler finishes off a DPOY season, and of course gets the flu as soon as the playoffs start. Lin doesn’t come back for the playoffs, shumpert and douglas only play 1 game a piece, baron davis eventually goes down, and the knicks are only left with 33 yr old mike bibby to run the point, who already had 1 foot in retirement.

13 - First time since carmelo came to the knicks that they really looked like a team who could make a run to the finals. PG play was always an issue prior to this season, and felton came up big in the 1st round against boston. Ball movement flowing with kidd and prigioni as well. Then in the 2nd round against indiana, chandler again doesn’t look himself, which would later be revealed that he had an “undisclosed illness” during the series. I think there’s a good chance they beat the pacers with a healthy chandler, and who knows what happens from there.

Here are the best players carmelo’s played with over the course of his career: andre miller (first few seasons of carmelo's career), kenyon martin (often injured), post 30s iverson, camby (often injured), JR smith, nene (often injured), billups, afflalo, amare (often injured), tyson chandler (often injured), kidd in his last season and an in shape felton. Outside of iverson, that’s a collection of good players, but nothing that screams "consistent second option", or even "consistent first option" if you want to push carmelo down a notch. Fit is clearly important, too, and while iverson and carmelo never had "problems" with each other, it wasn't working. It’s not an accident that carmelo’s best seasons came with billups running the show in 09 and a knicks team in 2013 which focused heavily on keeping the ball moving and quick decision making.

With regards to how carmelo’s career is perceived, I always go back to pierce before garnett and allen came along. Even if we agree that pierce is the better player, he had only been to the conf finals once before that trade, and i’m not sure how his career progresses without those trades being made. Does he stick with it in boston and not make anymore playoff runs? Does he eventually go to another team? I just wonder how carmelo would be looked at had he been fortunate enough to play with teammates of that caliber.

I also have one comment on the generalization that carmelo came back to NY "solely for the money and his brand". I don't think it's out of the question to venture that his wife and son (who's grown up up in NY) played a big role in his decision. It could very well be their wanting to stay in NY superseded his being tempted to play in houston / chicago. I had already prepared for him to leave this past summer, and was surprised he came back. I know stuff like this hasn't come up much in the project, but I felt the need to say it due to some of the stigma he's gotten.

I don’t think you can fall on the criticism of him not being able to fit with better players. International play doesn’t equal the NBA, but he’s always shined in that role. If he really had a problem with making that adjustment, he wouldn’t have been a key player on the last 2 olympic teams. And yes, few players get to play with say lebron or chris paul, but there’s little doubt in my mind that carmelo would thrive in a situation like that.

[trex_8063]

Richmond has the third most seasons with at least 30 PTS per 100, 55.0 TS%, 38.0 3 PT% and 5 3PA per 100.

Most seasons w/ TS% >= 55.0, 3 PT% >= 38.0, PTS per 100 >= 30.0, 3PA per 100 >= 5.0:

Reggie Miller = 6
Ray Allen = 5
Mitch Richmond = 4

I can't be the only poster on this board who thinks that's impressive,

I take a little issue with the criteria set forth above. By the inclusion of these particular 3pt stats you're cherry-picking for a somewhat specific player type (as well as essentially weeding out ALL big man scorers). Is Richmond's averaging better than 30 pts/100 @ 55+% ts more relevant than say....Hakeem doing it, just because Richmond did it while shooting (and making) a lot of treys?
And per 100 stats will also exclude consideration of all years prior to '74. So I think the above overstates the accomplishment.

For instance, if we remove the 3pt requirements, leaving us with just >30 pts/100 possessions at >55% ts........that's been done 489 times since 1973. Some of those are on insignificant sample sizes or minutes, so I added in a couple additional criteria: at least 35 games played, at least 25 mpg. It's still been done 394 times since 1973. And Richmond's rank among those who have done it is nowhere near 3rd:

Shaquille O'Neal: 15
Karl Malone: 13
Dirk Nowitzki: 12
Lebron James: 11
Michael Jordan: 10
Dwyane Wade: 9
Hakeem Olajuwon: 9
Charles Barkley: 9
George Gervin: 9
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 9 (again: this is only in '74 and after)
David Robinson: 8
Adrian Dantley: 8
Ray Allen: 8
Kobe Bryant: 8
Reggie Miller: 7
Kevin Durant: 6 (not yet counting this season because he hasn't yet played 35 games)
Moses Malone: 6
Ricky Pierce: 6
Carmelo Anthony: 6
Patrick Ewing: 6
Paul Pierce: 6
Alonzo Mourning: 5
Tim Duncan: 5
Larry Bird: 5
Yao Ming: 5
Kiki Vandeweghe: 5
Chris Bosh: 5
Mitch Richmond: 5
Dan Issel: 5 ('74 and after)
Alex English: 5
Amar'e Stoudemire: 5
David Thompson: 4
Dale Ellis: 4
Julius Erving: 4
Dominique Wilkins: 4
Manu Ginobili: 4
Clyde Drexler: 4
Walter Davis: 4
Corey Maggette: 4
Bernard King: 4

So he's tied (with NINE other guys) for 22nd. And fwiw, if we alter these arbitrary criteria just slightly to >31 pts/100 and >55.5% ts, he falls further back: Richmond has three seasons (out of 265 total that have been done since 1973) that qualify.

I'd compared some other statistical factors between him, Bosh, Lucas, Daniels, Mullin, Cunningham, Ming, and Marques Johnson in the last thread, too:

Spoiler:

Chris Bosh? One of the top 100 players of all time? It just is hard to believe having watched him for years. I could vote for Mullin, or Richmond, or Lucas, or Cunningham, or Yao, or Marques Johnson instead of Daniels . . . but outside of that I can't see it before a runoff and some of them I would have to look into to be sure. Bosh isn't at that level of dominance in any respect.

Sorry to ride these comments, but I wanted to do a bit of statistical comparison to the guys mentioned above:

Per 100 Possessions: Peak season (pts + reb +ast)
Yao Ming 57.0
Chris Bosh 49.4
Billy Cunningham 48.6 (in ABA; 44.4 his best in NBA)
Mel Daniels 47.3 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond 46.4
Marques Johnson 45.3
Chris Mullin 44.5
Jerry Lucas 41.9

Peak PER
Yao Ming 26.5
Chris Bosh 25.0
Billy Cunningham 24.7 (in ABA; 21.3 is his best in the NBA)
Marques Johnson 23.9
Chris Mullin 22.7
Mel Daniels 22.4 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond 21.6
Jerry Lucas 20.9

Prime PER
Yao Ming 23.0
Chris Bosh 21.9
Mel Daniels 21.1 (ABA)
Chris Mullin 20.9
Billy Cunningham 20.5 (2 years in ABA)
Marques Johnson 20.2
Jerry Lucas 19.3
Mitch Richmond 18.1

Career PER
Yao Ming 23.0
Chris Bosh 20.6
Marques Johnson 20.1
Mel Daniels 20.1 (ABA)
Billy Cunningham 20.0 (19.4 in the NBA)
Jerry Lucas 18.9
Chris Mullin 18.8
Mitch Richmond 17.6

Peak WS/48
Yao Ming .220
Marques Johnson .211 (twice)
Chris Bosh .200
Jerry Lucas .188
Billy Cunningham .176 (in ABA; .156 his best in the NBA)
Chris Mullin .174
Mel Daniels .173 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond .166

Prime WS/48
Yao Ming .200
Chris Bosh .175
Marques Johnson .164
Chris Mullin .156
Mel Daniels .151 (ABA)
Jerry Lucas .147
Billy Cunningham .144 (2 years in ABA)
Mitch Richmond .117

Career WS/48
Yao Ming .200
Marques Johnson .162
Chris Bosh .159
Jerry Lucas .147
Billy Cunningham .141 (2 years in ABA)
Chris Mullin .139
Mel Daniels .139 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond .111

The above (at least career/prime numbers) should be weighted against longevity/durability; the rankings in longevity/durability would likely go like this:
Mitch Richmond
Jerry Lucas
Billy Cunningham
Chris Bosh
Chris Mullin (decent length career, but fairly short prime)
Marques Johnson
Mel Daniels
Yao Ming


To hypothesize about non-boxscore impact, we really only have significant data for Bosh and Yao (Richmond to a lesser degree: '94 and on if include colts18's data).
Best 3 years
Chris Bosh +13.30
Yao Ming +9.59
Mitch Richmond +9.0

Best 5 years
Chris Bosh +19.93
Yao Ming +13.53
Mitch Richmond +13.39

Best 7 years
Chris Bosh +23.92
Mitch Richmond +15.5
Yao Ming +12.83

Again, the players Bosh rates out similarly to in impact data include Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Ben Wallace, and Gary Payton ('94 and on).
I can go on, but you get the gist. Literally everything we have to go on rates Bosh actually quite well vs this crowd, even before we factor in strength of league/era.

.....and Richmond didn't rate very well among them (except to note the good longevity).

[SactoKingsFan]

Richmond has the third most seasons with at least 30 PTS per 100, 55.0 TS%, 38.0 3 PT% and 5 3PA per 100.

Most seasons w/ TS% >= 55.0, 3 PT% >= 38.0, PTS per 100 >= 30.0, 3PA per 100 >= 5.0:

Reggie Miller = 6
Ray Allen = 5
Mitch Richmond = 4

I can't be the only poster on this board who thinks that's impressive,

I take a little issue with the criteria set forth above. By the inclusion of these particular 3pt stats you're cherry-picking for a somewhat specific player type (as well as essentially weeding out ALL big man scorers). Is Richmond's averaging better than 30 pts/100 @ 55+% ts more relevant than say....Hakeem doing it, just because Richmond did it while shooting (and making) a lot of treys?
And per 100 stats will also exclude consideration of all years prior to '74. So I think the above overstates the accomplishment.

For instance, if we remove the 3pt requirements, leaving us with just >30 pts/100 possessions at >55% ts........that's been done 489 times since 1973. Some of those are on insignificant sample sizes or minutes, so I added in a couple additional criteria: at least 35 games played, at least 25 mpg. It's still been done 394 times since 1973. And Richmond's rank among those who have done it is nowhere near 3rd:

Shaquille O'Neal: 15
Karl Malone: 13
Dirk Nowitzki: 12
Lebron James: 11
Michael Jordan: 10
Dwyane Wade: 9
Hakeem Olajuwon: 9
Charles Barkley: 9
George Gervin: 9
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 9 (again: this is only in '74 and after)
David Robinson: 8
Adrian Dantley: 8
Ray Allen: 8
Kobe Bryant: 8
Reggie Miller: 7
Kevin Durant: 6 (not yet counting this season because he hasn't yet played 35 games)
Moses Malone: 6
Ricky Pierce: 6
Carmelo Anthony: 6
Patrick Ewing: 6
Paul Pierce: 6
Alonzo Mourning: 5
Tim Duncan: 5
Larry Bird: 5
Yao Ming: 5
Kiki Vandeweghe: 5
Chris Bosh: 5
Mitch Richmond: 5
Dan Issel: 5 ('74 and after)
Alex English: 5
Amar'e Stoudemire: 5
David Thompson: 4
Dale Ellis: 4
Julius Erving: 4
Dominique Wilkins: 4
Manu Ginobili: 4
Clyde Drexler: 4
Walter Davis: 4
Corey Maggette: 4
Bernard King: 4

So he's tied (with NINE other guys) for 22nd. And fwiw, if we alter these arbitrary criteria just slightly to >31 pts/100 and >55.5% ts, he falls further back: Richmond has three seasons (out of 265 total that have been done since 1973) that qualify.

I'd compared some other statistical factors between him, Bosh, Lucas, Daniels, Mullin, Cunningham, Ming, and Marques Johnson in the last thread, too:

Spoiler:

Chris Bosh? One of the top 100 players of all time? It just is hard to believe having watched him for years. I could vote for Mullin, or Richmond, or Lucas, or Cunningham, or Yao, or Marques Johnson instead of Daniels . . . but outside of that I can't see it before a runoff and some of them I would have to look into to be sure. Bosh isn't at that level of dominance in any respect.

Sorry to ride these comments, but I wanted to do a bit of statistical comparison to the guys mentioned above:

Per 100 Possessions: Peak season (pts + reb +ast)
Yao Ming 57.0
Chris Bosh 49.4
Billy Cunningham 48.6 (in ABA; 44.4 his best in NBA)
Mel Daniels 47.3 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond 46.4
Marques Johnson 45.3
Chris Mullin 44.5
Jerry Lucas 41.9

Peak PER
Yao Ming 26.5
Chris Bosh 25.0
Billy Cunningham 24.7 (in ABA; 21.3 is his best in the NBA)
Marques Johnson 23.9
Chris Mullin 22.7
Mel Daniels 22.4 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond 21.6
Jerry Lucas 20.9

Prime PER
Yao Ming 23.0
Chris Bosh 21.9
Mel Daniels 21.1 (ABA)
Chris Mullin 20.9
Billy Cunningham 20.5 (2 years in ABA)
Marques Johnson 20.2
Jerry Lucas 19.3
Mitch Richmond 18.1

Career PER
Yao Ming 23.0
Chris Bosh 20.6
Marques Johnson 20.1
Mel Daniels 20.1 (ABA)
Billy Cunningham 20.0 (19.4 in the NBA)
Jerry Lucas 18.9
Chris Mullin 18.8
Mitch Richmond 17.6

Peak WS/48
Yao Ming .220
Marques Johnson .211 (twice)
Chris Bosh .200
Jerry Lucas .188
Billy Cunningham .176 (in ABA; .156 his best in the NBA)
Chris Mullin .174
Mel Daniels .173 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond .166

Prime WS/48
Yao Ming .200
Chris Bosh .175
Marques Johnson .164
Chris Mullin .156
Mel Daniels .151 (ABA)
Jerry Lucas .147
Billy Cunningham .144 (2 years in ABA)
Mitch Richmond .117

Career WS/48
Yao Ming .200
Marques Johnson .162
Chris Bosh .159
Jerry Lucas .147
Billy Cunningham .141 (2 years in ABA)
Chris Mullin .139
Mel Daniels .139 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond .111

The above (at least career/prime numbers) should be weighted against longevity/durability; the rankings in longevity/durability would likely go like this:
Mitch Richmond
Jerry Lucas
Billy Cunningham
Chris Bosh
Chris Mullin (decent length career, but fairly short prime)
Marques Johnson
Mel Daniels
Yao Ming


To hypothesize about non-boxscore impact, we really only have significant data for Bosh and Yao (Richmond to a lesser degree: '94 and on if include colts18's data).
Best 3 years
Chris Bosh +13.30
Yao Ming +9.59
Mitch Richmond +9.0

Best 5 years
Chris Bosh +19.93
Yao Ming +13.53
Mitch Richmond +13.39

Best 7 years
Chris Bosh +23.92
Mitch Richmond +15.5
Yao Ming +12.83

Again, the players Bosh rates out similarly to in impact data include Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Ben Wallace, and Gary Payton ('94 and on).
I can go on, but you get the gist. Literally everything we have to go on rates Bosh actually quite well vs this crowd, even before we factor in strength of league/era.

.....and Richmond didn't rate very well among them (except to note the good longevity).

Well, since I focused on 3 point shooting, I thought it was clear that I was comparing Richmond to other efficient volume scoring wings since the introduction of 3 point line. Not sure why I should have mentioned all-time great bigs that have long been voted in and had vastly different skill-sets.

[trex_8063]

Well, I need to get a vote in. God help me, I'm strongly considering voting for someone who I know is going to be polarizing.......a guy who will probably have enough support to makes run-offs starting like NOW, but probably won't garner enough support to WIN a run-off yet. I feel like I've ended up backing too many candidates like that in this project.

Anyway, the guy I'm strongly considering is Carmelo Anthony.

I know scoring isn't the ONLY part of the game.....but it is pretty necessary. And he's a very very good scorer. In him we have a guy who once led the league in scoring while shooting 56.0% ts (+2.54% to league avg) for a team that was 2nd in the conference. As noted in my above response, using SactoKingsFan's criteria of >30 pts/100 @ 55+% ts (where Richmond has 5 qualifying seasons): Carmelo has 6.

If we change that criteria just slightly to >31 pts/100 @ 55.5+% ts: Carmelo has 5 qualifying seasons vs. 3 for Richmond.

If we change it to >33 pts/100 @ 56+% ts: Melo has 4 qualifying seasons vs. just 1 for Richmond.


Melo's defense is lacking, though no candidate is perfect at this point. He's a reasonably good rebounding SF, and a decent passer, too (probably better than his assist numbers by my eye-test; his turnover numbers are really pretty good considering the usage and scoring load he's shouldered). His longevity is reasonably good at this point, too. Clyde posted some relevant stuff above regarding his playoff career.

So idk, I'm seriously considering him. Not married to the pick, though. Other guys I'm most strongly considering at this spot are Billy Cunningham, Jack Sikma, Jerry Lucas, or maybe Dave DeBusschere.

[trex_8063]

Well, since I focused on 3 point shooting, I thought it was clear that I was comparing Richmond to other efficient volume scoring wings since the introduction of 3 point line. Not sure why I should have mentioned all-time great bigs that have long been voted in and had vastly different skill-sets.

Well, you mentioned two wings who have long since been voted in; so I didn't think bringing up players voted in was off limits. And as this isn't a perimeter-only list/project, I didn't see the reason to exclude bigs.

Further, those criteria select against several other efficient (or at least equally efficient) "volume scoring WINGS since introduction of 3 point line": ranking even with or ahead of him on the list I presented (but not on yours, due to 3pt requirements) are===>Lebron James, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Adrian Dantley, Dwyane Wade, George Gervin (even if only counting seasons since 3pt line), Kevin Durant, Ricky Pierce, Paul Pierce, Carmelo Anthony, Larry Bird, and Alex English. That's an awful lot of wings being omitted. The gap between Richmond and Miller/Allen appears smaller by inclusion of the 3PA volume requirement, too.

jsia...

[Sasaki]

can Amare be considered at this point?

As I've argued, Yao should get in before Amare. Amare last just 1.5 seasons longer( Yao missed fewer games than Amare up to 2009). which is compensated by the fact that you know, Amare didn't play defense and Yao did.

[trex_8063]

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and cast my vote for Carmelo Anthony, largely for reasons stated in post #11.

Boxscore metrics rate him very favorably compared to other available candidates around this stage.
Impact data, admittedly does not rate him overly well, though it does rate him better than individuals such as Amar'e Stoudemire, Stephon Marbury, and Joakim Noah, as well as post-1993 Joe Dumars. His best 7 years added are better than Kevin Durant's, too.

As a matter of internal consistency, too: ton of parallel between him and Dominique Wilkins, imo. I'd rate Nique a marginally better player overall, and Nique's still got a slight longevity case over him, too. But given Nique was voted in 27 places ago........would seem pretty inconsistent if Melo doesn't get in soon.

So for now, I'm going with him.

[Moonbeam]

The guys I'm thinking of don't seem to be getting any traction:

Neil Johnston
Bill Walton
Joe Dumars

Perhaps I'm a little high on Walton due to his peak, but man, he was brilliant when healthy. Johnston probably won't get in if the last runoff is any indication, and Dumars seems like he's a way off yet, too. I feel like Defensive Win Shares and DRating really don't do him justice, so his statistical imprint isn't as strong as perhaps it should be.

Bill Sharman is next on my list, though, and perhaps he should get more traction here. Decently long and consistent career as an excellent shooter and decent scorer with a game that didn't drop off at all in the postseason. He's well worth consideration at this stage, I think.

Not ready to cast a vote just yet. Would probably still lean to Johnston at this stage.

[penbeast0]

Adding Carmelo to what trex_8063 wrote; he basically fits right into the Chris Bosh slot except for weaker WS/148 but better longevity:



Per 100 Possessions: Peak season (pts + reb +ast)
Yao Ming 57.0
Carmelo Anthony 55.0
Billy Cunningham 48.6 (in ABA; 44.4 his best in NBA)
Mel Daniels 47.3 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond 46.4
Marques Johnson 45.3
Chris Mullin 44.5
Jerry Lucas 41.9

Peak PER
Yao Ming 26.5
Carmelo Anthony 24.8
Billy Cunningham 24.7 (in ABA; 21.3 is his best in the NBA)
Marques Johnson 23.9
Chris Mullin 22.7
Mel Daniels 22.4 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond 21.6
Jerry Lucas 20.9

Prime PER
Yao Ming 23.0
Carmelo Anthony 22.0
Mel Daniels 21.1 (ABA)
Chris Mullin 20.9
Billy Cunningham 20.5 (2 years in ABA)
Marques Johnson 20.2
Jerry Lucas 19.3
Mitch Richmond 18.1

Career PER
Yao Ming 23.0
Carmelo Anthony 21.1
Marques Johnson 20.1
Mel Daniels 20.1 (ABA)
Billy Cunningham 20.0 (19.4 in the NBA)
Jerry Lucas 18.9
Chris Mullin 18.8
Mitch Richmond 17.6

Peak WS/48
Yao Ming .220
Marques Johnson .211 (twice)
Jerry Lucas .188
Carmelo Anthony .184
Billy Cunningham .176 (in ABA; .156 his best in the NBA)
Chris Mullin .174
Mel Daniels .173 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond .166

Prime WS/48
Yao Ming .200
Marques Johnson .164
Chris Mullin .156
Mel Daniels .151 (ABA)
Carmelo Anthony .149
Jerry Lucas .147
Billy Cunningham .144 (2 years in ABA)
Mitch Richmond .117

Career WS/48
Yao Ming .200
Marques Johnson .162
Chris Bosh .159
Jerry Lucas .147
Billy Cunningham .141 (2 years in ABA)
Chris Mullin .139
Mel Daniels .139 (ABA)
Carmelo Anthony .137
Mitch Richmond .111

The above (at least career/prime numbers) should be weighted against longevity/durability; the rankings in longevity/durability would likely go like this:
Mitch Richmond
Carmelo Anthony
Jerry Lucas
Billy Cunningham
Chris Mullin (decent length career, but fairly short prime)
Marques Johnson
Mel Daniels
Yao Ming

[penbeast0]

By the above stats, Yao Ming and Carmelo Anthony should be the leading contenders depending on how you value longevity, defense (Yao was good if not outstanding, Anthony bad if not terrible), and intangibles (Yao was likeable but seemed prone to injury at playoff time, Anthony is not particularly admirable especially his year of whining his way out of Denver).

Defensively, I'd rank the main contenders (going solely off eye test and admitting I saw Lucas with the Knicks, not with the Royals):

Mel Daniels
Yao Ming

Billy Cunningham
Marques Johnson
Mitch Richmond

Jerry Lucas
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Mullin

[Clyde Frazier]

Carmelo's career BPM is 1.4. Players already voted in with only slightly higher BPM figures:

Gervin - 1.5 (voted in at 38)
King - 1.7 (voted in at 70)
English - 1.7 (voted in at 54)
Worthy - 1.7 (voted in at 75)
WIlkins - 1.8 (voted in at 61)

* Havlicek is also at 1.4, but this only counts the last 5 seasons of his career
* Richmond's career BPM is only .9

By the above stats, Yao Ming and Carmelo Anthony should be the leading contenders depending on how you value longevity, defense (Yao was good if not outstanding, Anthony bad if not terrible), and intangibles (Yao was likeable but seemed prone to injury at playoff time, Anthony is not particularly admirable especially his year of whining his way out of Denver).

Defensively, I'd rank the main contenders (going solely off eye test and admitting I saw Lucas with the Knicks, not with the Royals):

Mel Daniels
Yao Ming

Billy Cunningham
Marques Johnson
Mitch Richmond

Jerry Lucas
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Mullin

I think you'd have to really look past longevity and durability to support yao. He only played 7 true seasons, 3 of which he missed significant time. At the end of his career, he missed an entire season, and only played 5 games in his last attempted comeback. He also missed the 08 playoffs due to injury. Truly great player at his peak, but his career was largely dictated by poor health.

I think classifying carmelo's defense as "bad to terrible" is exaggerated. He isn't of the amare / david lee / boozer ilk where it basically becomes open season in the paint because they lack some combination of ability, size and determination. I merely consider carmelo somewhat below average to average, and yes, he can be erratic.

While not perfect, take a look at how the below SFs have performed against carmelo vs. their career averages. Sure, camrelo may not have been guarding them the whole time, but it's a large enough sample size to at least uncover any red flags.

(TS% or eFG% not available for head to head data)

Durant - 27.9 PPG on 43/41/87 (career 27.3 PPG on 48/38/88)

LeBron - 25.9 PPG on 49/27/70 (career 27.4 PPG on 50/34/75)

Gay - 18.6 PPG on 44/22/72 (career 18.4 PPG on 45/34/79)

George - 15.1 PPG on 45/34/77 (career 15.3 PPG on 43/36/83)

Pierce - 23.1 PPG on 50/41/80 (career 20.9 PPG on 45/37/81)

Granger - 16.6 PPG on 45/39/88 (career 16.8 PPG on 43/38/85)

Caron Butler - 12.4 PPG on 43/38/84 (career 14.5 PPG on 43/34/85)

McGrady - 19.6 PPG on 45/44/82 (career 19.6 PPG on 44/34/75)

Deng - 17.1 PPG on 45/36/83 (career 16.9 PPG on 46/33/77)

Josh Howard - 12.7 PPG on 44/31/79 (career 14.3 PPG on 45/33/77)

Richard Jefferson - 14.2 PPG on 51/43/66 (career 14 PPG on 47/38/77)

Stephen Jackson - 17.4 PPG on 35/33/86 (career 15.1 PPG on 41/33/80)

Of the 12 players, 6 scored the same or less than their career averages against carmelo. Those that scored more were only by marginal amounts. Efficiency ranges from lower to somewhat higher. No red flags here.

One last observation: durant's defensive rep has improved over the last few seasons. For their careers, durant's teams allow 3 more points per 100 for his career when he's on the court. Carmelo's teams only allow 1.7 more per 100. Also, last season the knicks actually allowed 2.9 less points per 100 when he was on the floor.

[Doctor MJ]

I'll just throw out a few names I'm sympathetic to:

Mel Daniels - not a given that he should get this spot, but very much a quality player who stands out among guys with longer ABA careers

Bill Walton - should not miss out on a Top 100 slot without people outright deciding he's clearly not worthy. Not saying he has to make it, but you should have a sense for where you would vote him in if the project kept going. He can't be penalized indefinitely.

Bill Sharman - Honestly I'd be considerably more interested in drafting him than and other non-Russell Celtic from the early part of that dynasty.

Connie Hawkins - If Walton doesn't get in, I don't think Connie should either, but if you haven't researched him, man, what a beautiful player. People talk about Baylor being the first version of Jordan, but Connie was the first one to do it in a way that really clicked imho.

Mookie Blaylock - Honestly, may not be worthy, but I feel like I need to think on him more.

Billy Cunningham - I'd actually forgot about him. To me he's more impressive than Greer.

Chris Mullin - definitely my pick amongst the Run TMC

Marques Johnson - I miss ElGee. He made monster posts for Marques. I feel like we're underrating him, but I don't really have those posts in me for Marques.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Mitch Richmond

Part practicality, part indecision. Still, Mitch is a solid candidate here. His 1996 season is one of the greatest seasons for a volume scoring distance shooter in NBA history. Excellent longevity. His combination of solid D, not being a selfish guy, and spacing makes him portable and able to do positive things on strong teams. His peak seasons in 1996 and 1997 are pretty damn impressive.

As for Melo, I appreciate the posts made for him here. That said, I feel like he isn't close to being a top player until 2009, and really didn't become a consistently complete player until maybe 2012. He's got very good peak seasons in 2013 and 2014, but quite frankly, his longevity as a star leaves a lot to be desired. I don't have much use for him in any capacity pre-2009.