RealGM Top 100 List #92

[penbeast0]

PG: Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, and maybe Mookie Blaylock are the players I'm looking at . . . should mention Penny Hardaway though he never impressed me as much as he did the TV guys of his day.

Forwards: Marques Johnson and Chris Mullin would be the main scorers. Bailey Howell and Bob Dandridge also come to mind. Maybe Dave DeBusschere for defensive impact but as I have said, Jack Sikma seems to bring more to the table as a 2 way player and Paul Silas impressed me more defensively and in terms of anecdotal stories about leadership.

Bigs: Amare Stoudamire and Jerry Lucas bring great scoring and rebounding respectively but defensive questions (Neil Johnston maybe even better numbers in the weak 50s but defensively questionable too). Bill Walton has the highest peak (though that's it for true career value -- 1 year then failed to stay healthy to the playoffs the next and 1 year as a reserve role player). Maybe Yao Ming should get a mention too.

There are a lot of other good players but as we are into the last 10, that's my short list. If someone can convince me Bailey Howell is a good defender, I will consider him. If not, my top picks are Chris Mullin or Marques Johnson right now.

[Clyde Frazier]

9 spots left, 12 guys i’m mulling over in a rough order:

Dave DeBusschere
Chris Mullin
Jerry Lucas
Shawn Kemp

Earl Monroe — trex, I know we discussed him a while back. Take a closer look at his career.  He went from being the primary scorer on some successful bullets teams to fitting in seamlessly with the consummate "team" in NY, helping them back to the finals in 72, championship win in 73, and ECF run in 74.  While his #s aren't eye popping across the board, he had some impressive years and decent longevity for his era.

There are a lot of other good players but as we are into the last 10, that's my short list.

Maybe you can fill in the holes for us on monroe.

I’d like to see a Hardaway vs. Price comparison. Hardaway has better longevity, but price had a really solid stretch at his best.

Detlef Schrempf
Bill Sharman
Connie Hawkins
Gus Williams
Dave Bing

I also plan to look into Sikma more, as I know he has attractive #s, but just haven’t watched him all that much to have an opinion one way or another.

[trex_8063]

I'm still feeling pretty strongly for Jack Sikma; wish he was getting more support.

Here are the numbers for his extended prime (ten years--->'79-'88, 797 rs games).....
Per 100 possessions: 23.2 pts, 14.7 reb, 4.6 ast, 1.5 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.4 tov @ 54.3% ts (+0.7% to league avg)
18.2 PER, .155 WS/48, 110 ORtg/101 DRtg (+9), +2.9 BPM in 35.0 mpg
34.8 VORP (which is pretty big; career total rs VORP was 42.0)

And the above came along with being a very solid low-post defender, once receiving All-D honors (and obv not because of high shot-block numbers).

*Was one of the principle "big three" for the championship '79 Sonics.

*Five times figured into the MVP vote, twice in the top 10 (as high as 7th).

*I realize the All-Star vote has a lot of "wtf? noise", but still maybe worth noting he was 7 times selected as an All-Star despite some NOT insignificant talent at his position in the Western Conference.
Take '79, for instance. At the C position, aside from Sikma himself, there were the following: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Artis Gilmore, Robert Parish, Dan Issel, and Sam Lacey (not to mention Maurice Lucas and George McGinnis at PF). Amid that crowd, Sikma still made the AS team.
In '85, the Western Conference featured at the C (or PF/C) position (aside from Sikma himself): Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Artis Gilmore, rookie Hakeem Olajuwon, Ralph Sampson, and Mark Eaton (as well as Larry Nance at PF). Sikma again made the AS squad out of this bunch, while Gilmore and Eaton were left out.


*Where era portability is a consideration for some people, I certainly like his offensive skill-set: his somewhat elite big-man passing and range certainly fit him well into modern offenses. Young Sikma, at least, appeared to have enough lateral quickness to likely be decent defending pick n' rolls, too.

He's really sort of a complete package. Perhaps not quite "elite" at anything (except maybe FT-shooting, and I think he'd have been an elite big-man 3pt shooter, too, had he cut his teeth in this day and age), but good to very good at nearly all aspects of the game that were required of him.
Very good longevity, too.

Will wait a little before casting my vote, but am hoping to rouse some support for this guy. Solid player for some good teams and for many years....

[penbeast0]

No one has any traction yet but DeBusschere who was the run-off guy last time.

Earl Monroe was a super fun player for the Bullets and a solid pro for the Knicks . . . but at his best, was not the scorer that a prime Chris Mullin was, and was never the defensive player that a prime Bob Dandridge was (and Dandridge was in the same area as a scorer as Knicks Monroe). I don't see him until Mullin goes in (if Mullin goes in).

Sikma is probably the best 2 way center left. Compare to the offense/stat guys like Amare, Jerry Lucas, or Neil Johnston.

Hawkins is just a bit better than Walton in terms of durability in his prime and Walton's peak was (imo) a lot higher and I'd go for him first. I'd go with Marques Johnson over Hawkins too in terms of short peak guys. The Hawk's 1.5 years peaked higher than any Marques season but Marques gives you around 5 or 6 years at the level of Connie's second best full season and a longer prime.


No real problems with the other candidates even if I may choose another player; they are all at the rough level we are dealing with at this point.

[Clyde Frazier]

Sorta forgot about dumars. Would probably lump him in with hardaway and price. Can’t overlook his contribution to those pistons finals teams. It’s just his overall career that leaves a little to be desired.

[trex_8063]

Alright, I'm just going to put it out there. Vote: Jack Sikma, for reasons outlined in above post.

And like penbeast0 said, he's the best two-way center left on the table. Not as dominant a scorer as Walt Bellamy or Neil Johnston, but as good (or nearly so) a rebounder, and a BETTER passer and defender than both.

[penbeast0]

Sikma/DeBusschere is an interesting comp . . . similar players though Sikma was taller and more of a F/C rather than a pure forward like DeBusschere.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

Sikma played a bit longer and, taking pace into account by using the per 100 possessions numbers, scores, rebounds, and gets assists at a slightly higher rate. Also an appreciably better FT shooter which implies better range on his shot (and late career Sikma extended his range out to the 3 point line). Sikma played a bigger role on the Seattle Finals and Title teams than DeBusschere did on the Knicks title teams as well. In terms of advanced stats VORP is the real shocker, Sikma 42.5 career v. DeBusschere 2.5 career.

Unless you think DeBusschere's defensive value is clearly better, I don't see the case for him over Sikma. (Not that I'm sold on Sikma over Chris Mullin or Marques Johnson at this point but I can make that case at least).

[Quotatious]

Vote: Jack Sikma

Trex's post makes a pretty convincing case for Sikma. Very good longevity, versatile player who was above average at pretty much everything (well, maybe except shotblocking - he really wasn't much of a presence in this regard). Very good rebounder, excellent passer, good range on his jumpshot (made 18 footers consistently, late in his career in Milwaukee even developed a pretty solid 3-point shot), fantastic FT shooter, great hands and soft shooting touch, pretty good size, smart, unselfish player, very good longevity. There's a lot of things to like about Sikma. Doesn't seem like a good playoff performer, but at this point, it doesn't really matter. Still, he was a key part of a championship team in 1979. It has to count for something.

Sikma reminds me a bit of Marc Gasol, or a bit worse version of Robert Parish. Just a very solid all-around center, very good defender (despite not being much of a shotblocker).

I admit, initially I thought that Sikma would be much higher on my shortlist of candidates, but eventually he fell a lot, as I evaluated my options "on the fly" (I never put together an all-time list that long, before).

Sikma's significant edge in terms of career WS makes me choose him over DeBusschere.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Jack Sikma

One of the best all-around big men ever in terms of variety in his skillset. Smart player, tough, strong on the glass yet could play defense out on the floor. Shoots and passes well for a big man. I like the Marc Gasol comparison.

[Clyde Frazier]

lol... thought there were debusschere votes coming and i was just holding out to add more to my vote. I'll stick with it for now anyway as I said above that i'd like to watch sikma more before placing a vote for him.

Spoiler:

Dave DeBusschere

Very versatile player - could score (not very efficiently - just about league average TS% in the 60s, but he had a pretty good range on his jumper - I saw him make 20-23 footers a lot of times, and even some shots from today's 3-point land), rebound (11 rebounds per game for his career as a 6'6'' or 6'7'', 220-225 lbs forward), quite possibly the best non-center defender of his era, good passer, very unselfish, smart, played with tremendous effort every game, and had some of the best "intangibles" of any player in NBA history. Excellent athlete, too (played in two pro leagues - NBA and briefly also in the MLB). Pretty good longevity - 10 year prime, and there are indications that he could've played a few more years on a high level, if he wanted to - in his last season, '73-'74, he averaged almost 18/11/4, and had probably the best scoring season of his career.

His advanced metrics are really mediocre, but he seems to be one of those guys who's impact goes beyond boxscore numbers. He was just a workhorse out there on the court, and he really reminds me of John Havlicek and especially Dave Cowens (Hondo is in since #30, Cowens since #52).
Also, how about the fact that DeBusschere became a player-coach at age 24? Speaks volumes about his basketball acumen and leadership qualities.

Let's take a look at the '68-'69 Knicks, as an example of DeBusschere's impact - before the Bellamy/DeBusschere trade, Knicks were 18-16, 52.9% W (with Bellamy), after the trade, they were 36-11, 76.6% W (with DeBusschere). Considering that New York didn't make any other changes to their roster (well, they also lost their backup point guard Howard Komives, who was traded to Detroit along with Bellamy), that's instant impact personified, right there.

Vote for #92 - Dave DeBusschere

As quotatious noted above, debusschere had an instant impact when he was traded to the knicks. Similarly, his absence was felt the season after he retired. In debusschere's last season, the knicks ranked 5th in the league in SRS with a trip to the conf finals. The following season, they dropped to 11th in SRS and finished 40-42. Reed had also retired, however, he only played in 19 games the season prior (NY went 10-9 in those games).

Versatile defender, great rebounder, not that efficient scoring-wise, but could hit the open jumper, find the open man and banged well inside.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #10:

Jack Sikma (3) - trex_8063, Quotatious, ronnymac2

Dave DeBusschere (1) - Clyde Frazier

Only 4 votes I'm seeing. penbeast0 has been active in the discussion, but not yet taken a stand with someone as far as I can tell. Wish Doc, RSCD_3, SactoKingsFan, notanoob, Owly, moonbeam, and any others who've been active recently would chime in.

[penbeast0]

But I think most of us basketball junkies are focused on March Madness at the moment. (Can't believe I left Hot Wings yesterday with North Carolina up 15 on Harvard thinking it was done . . . ). Because of that and because we had a tie on the night the thread was due to end and I didn't start this one until the following morning, I will not close it until tomorrow (Saturday) night.

[SkyHookFTW]

I'm still feeling pretty strongly for Jack Sikma; wish he was getting more support.

Here are the numbers for his extended prime (ten years--->'79-'88, 797 rs games).....
Per 100 possessions: 23.2 pts, 14.7 reb, 4.6 ast, 1.5 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.4 tov @ 54.3% ts (+0.7% to league avg)
18.2 PER, .155 WS/48, 110 ORtg/101 DRtg (+9), +2.9 BPM in 35.0 mpg
34.8 VORP (which is pretty big; career total rs VORP was 42.0)

And the above came along with being a very solid low-post defender, once receiving All-D honors (and obv not because of high shot-block numbers).

*Was one of the principle "big three" for the championship '79 Sonics.

*Five times figured into the MVP vote, twice in the top 10 (as high as 7th).

*I realize the All-Star vote has a lot of "wtf? noise", but still maybe worth noting he was 7 times selected as an All-Star despite some NOT insignificant talent at his position in the Western Conference.
Take '79, for instance. At the C position, aside from Sikma himself, there were the following: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Artis Gilmore, Robert Parish, Dan Issel, and Sam Lacey (not to mention Maurice Lucas and George McGinnis at PF). Amid that crowd, Sikma still made the AS team.
In '85, the Western Conference featured at the C (or PF/C) position (aside from Sikma himself): Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Artis Gilmore, rookie Hakeem Olajuwon, Ralph Sampson, and Mark Eaton (as well as Larry Nance at PF). Sikma again made the AS squad out of this bunch, while Gilmore and Eaton were left out.


*Where era portability is a consideration for some people, I certainly like his offensive skill-set: his somewhat elite big-man passing and range certainly fit him well into modern offenses. Young Sikma, at least, appeared to have enough lateral quickness to likely be decent defending pick n' rolls, too.

He's really sort of a complete package. Perhaps not quite "elite" at anything (except maybe FT-shooting, and I think he'd have been an elite big-man 3pt shooter, too, had he cut his teeth in this day and age), but good to very good at nearly all aspects of the game that were required of him.
Very good longevity, too.

Will wait a little before casting my vote, but am hoping to rouse some support for this guy. Solid player for some good teams and for many years....

That's why I drafted him. Very versatile and skilled big man. No doubt in my mind that he could shoot the three in today's game.

[SactoKingsFan]

Kemp and Mullin are my top candidates but I'm fine with Sikma or DeBusschere taking this spot. Both are good candidates at this point in the project.

[trex_8063]

.

We can probably call this one for Sikma, no? Thread's like >50 hours old and he's still got 75% of the vote.