prime Shaq vs HOF Cs head-to-head

[bastillon]

Fusheng's recent post and T-Sherk vs TLAF discussion was an inspiration to this thread.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... l=en#gid=0

hope that works. first time I'm using google docs myself.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Fusheng's recent post and T-Sherk vs TLAF discussion was an inspiration to this thread.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... l=en#gid=0

hope that works. first time I'm using google docs myself.

Yeah a ``prime Shaq`` was the most dominant player in NBA history and would destroy any HOF Center.

[bastillon]

yeah, he didn't really outplay severely any of these guys.

29-37 years old Hakeem still limited him to 23 PPG and 4 TOV (3.4 APG and 58% TS, but still... Hakeem was way past prime).

vs prime Mutombo Shaq avged 18 PPG on 44% TS. you've gotta wonder how much of his 01 dominance was the refs (elbows!) and how much the actual skill cause he sucked against Mutombo before that.

vs prime Mourning 26 PPG on 49% TS and 4 TOV.

vs past prime Ewing he avged 26 PPG on 52% TS with 2.5 APG and 3.1 TOV.

vs D-Rob he did his job with 25 PPG/54% TS but was dominated on the other end (28/54% TS/5 APG/1 TOV).

[An Unbiased Fan]

Shaq dominated the weakest era for centers ever. He didn't make 1st team at C until Hakeem & DRob were past their primes.

Here's who Shaq had to beat out when he was All-NBA 1st team:

98' (DRob,Mutombo)
00' (Mourning, DRob)
01' (Mutombo, DRob)
02' (Mutombo,Wallace)
03' (Wallace)
04' (Wallace,Yao)
05' (Amare,Wallace)
06' (Wallace,Yao)

Shaq also never led the league in rebounding, nor blocks, nor did he ever make All-D 1st team.

[KING JAMES1978]

Shaq dominated the weakest era for centers ever. He didn't make 1st team at C until Hakeem & DRob were past their primes.

He wasn't at his prime.Because at his prime Shaq would destroy anyone of them.Even when Shaq was younger no one beat him.When he played against Hakeem back to 1995 Finals he was 23 years old and Hakeem was at his best.
Shaq vs Hakeem
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =olajuha01
Shaq vs Robinson
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =robinda01
Shaq vs Ewing
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =ewingpa01
Just look how young Shaq competed against them.
And Prime Shaq>>Prime Hakeem/Prime Robinson/Prime Ewing.He would destroy them!

[ManOfSteel]

Seems to me Shaq is the worst center ever.
Do you believe he shoud have averaged 35+ppg and 60%fg vs other elite centers?
And yes Olajuwon dominated robinson f.e.
22ppg, 3to and 44%fg LMAO

And what Shaq did to Mutombo in 2001 finals is something, both prime DRob and Akeem wouldn't be able to do.Not saying DPOY mutombo would completly shut down them in finals but they certanly woudnt dominate him as much as Shaq did.
Some Shaq haters are rly sad on this board.
When you read what they say u have a feeling he was a below average center.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Shaq dominated the weakest era for centers ever. He didn't make 1st team at C until Hakeem & DRob were past their primes.

He wasn't at his prime.Because at his prime Shaq would destroy anyone of them.Even when Shaq was younger no one beat him.When he played against Hakeem back to 1995 Finals he was 23 years old and Hakeem was at his best.
Shaq vs Hakeem
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =olajuha01
Shaq vs Robinson
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =robinda01
Shaq vs Ewing
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =ewingpa01
Just look how young Shaq competed against them.
And Prime Shaq>>Prime Hakeem/Prime Robinson/Prime Ewing.He would destroy them!

The numbers you just posted suggest otherwise. Shaq gains a huge advantage in overall averages because you're including the past prime years for these 3 players. Shaq surely didn't "dominate" these guys before they began to slow down, which is why he didn't make 1st team until 98'.

[bastillon]

And what Shaq did to Mutombo in 2001 finals is something, both prime DRob and Akeem wouldn't be able to do.Not saying DPOY mutombo would completly shut down them in finals but they certanly woudnt dominate him as much as Shaq did.
Some Shaq haters are rly sad on this board.
When you read what they say u have a feeling he was a below average center.

the purpose of this thread was to show that Shaq never dominated HOF C head2head, not that he was a below average center. Mutombo was past his prime in 2001 and when he was at his best Shaq couldn't even play well against him, let alone dominate.

Shaq dominated the weakest era for centers ever. He didn't make 1st team at C until Hakeem & DRob were past their primes.

He wasn't at his prime.Because at his prime Shaq would destroy anyone of them.Even when Shaq was younger no one beat him.When he played against Hakeem back to 1995 Finals he was 23 years old and Hakeem was at his best.
Shaq vs Hakeem
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =olajuha01
Shaq vs Robinson
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =robinda01
Shaq vs Ewing
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =ewingpa01
Just look how young Shaq competed against them.
And Prime Shaq>>Prime Hakeem/Prime Robinson/Prime Ewing.He would destroy them!

what you're trying to assert here is quite ridiculous. when Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson where still relatively young, Shaq didn't even outplay them h2h... and you're trying to tell me he'd dominate them ?

I love how Shaq supporters always make it seem like 00s Shaq was vastly superior to 90s version, just because of the 3-peat against watered down competition. honestly though, 90s Centers were nothing like the crap Shaq went through in the 00s and the h2h battles confirm it.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

And what Shaq did to Mutombo in 2001 finals is something, both prime DRob and Akeem wouldn't be able to do.Not saying DPOY mutombo would completly shut down them in finals but they certanly woudnt dominate him as much as Shaq did.

The refs just threw their whistles away and allowed him to barrel over Dikembe! It was pathetic basketball to watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

And Dikembe in the Golden Age of 90s Centers only about the 7th or 8th best Center in the NBA! The guy was one dimensional, owning him is no career achievement and doesn`t translate into dominating HOFers before that era. DRob led S.A. to a sweep of Dikembe head to head. Anybody who feels a prime Hakeem wasn`t capable of dominating Dikembe in a playoff series in a similar manner of Shaq in `01 Finals obviously didn`t start watching basketball until Shaq started winning titles.

In the Golden Age of 90s Centers, Shaq was just ONE OF the elite. When DRob was in S.A. healthy and had Rodman cleaning up the glass from weakside, Shaq was having trouble beating them. Hakeem went into his homecourt as the underdog and collected a Finals MVP.

You want to say 99-02 Shaq could outplay these guys in a series ok, but DESTROY Hakeem or DRob of the 90s like Jaypo claimed in a thread is a complete joke. ``Prime Shaq```got bailed out by Kobe in Game 7 at home....you ever saw Hakeem playing lousy in a elimination game and having someone bail him out while playing 2nd fiddle?

[bastillon]

Hakeem and Shaq played h2h 20 times and despite Dream being in his mid 30s, way past his prime, Shaq dropped only three 30-pt games against him. meanwhile he had eight below 20-pt games. matter of fact, 2000 Shaq, an absolute peak Shaq, never had a 30-pt game against a 37 year old Olajuwon. these are averages from their 4 h2h battles from 2000:

Shaq 39 MPG 22.8 PPG 47% TS 3.2 TOV
Dream 27 MPG 11 PPG 54% TS 0.2 TOV

so honestly GTFO with that bull crap that prime Shaq would "destroy" Hakeem when he couldn't even do that to his 37 year old version playing on last fumes.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Shaq dominated the weakest era for centers ever. He didn't make 1st team at C until Hakeem & DRob were past their primes.

Here's who Shaq had to beat out when he was All-NBA 1st team:

98' (DRob,Mutombo)
00' (Mourning, DRob)
01' (Mutombo, DRob)
02' (Mutombo,Wallace)
03' (Wallace)
04' (Wallace,Yao)
05' (Amare,Wallace)
06' (Wallace,Yao)

I don`t profess to being a fan of all-NBA teams as the gospel, sometimes guys get wrongfully shafted in awards, but look at `99. There is ZERO excuse for Shaq to be finishing runner up behind Alonzo Mourning at any stage of his career at the Center position. And I liked Zo, but in the Golden Age of healthy prime C`s, he never came close to sniffing all-NBA recognition, he was the 5th best Center of that era behind Dream, Ewing, Shaq and DRob. Shaq`s so-called MDE titles years compared to 95 his teamates were better battle tested role players that won a combined 10 titles before LA, Kobe a better SG, Phil a better coach. It isn`t like Shaq drastically improved as a player from his 29ppg-13 reb season of 94-95, like Hakeem did in the 92-93 season on compared to before in his career.

[DatWasNashty]

I very much agree with the overall sentiment of this thread. And I will take the time to bash O'Neal as much as I can while keeping it slightly relevant to the thread.

Shaq's peak years have always been overrated to me. The reason he peaked in 2000 is because of the trash competition at the 5 slot and Phil Jackson's offense catering to his game. No doubt Shaq improved his passing and played defense to his true potential but he looked better dominating the lack of competition. He didn't dominate game 6 and game 7 against Portland where Kobe outplayed him. The frontline of Grant/Sabonis/Sheed gave him some trouble relative to other teams and he was held below his averages iirc. Pippen also played some great help defense.

I don't think Lakers Shaq was a significantly more impactful player then Orlando Shaq. Orlando Shaq came off to me as more athletic (faster, quicker, better at running the floor). And we have to remember that Orlando Shaq was also the consensus third best center in the league after Hakeem and Robinson. Certainly more people thought Dream and Admiral were superior and that's shown by the all-nba selections and MVP voting.

He didn't dominate Dream, Ewing or Robinson either ('93-97). I remember Pat having some big games against him although he did have some terrible shooting nights because Shaq would take away that running hook across the lane and it would become a matter of how hot Ewing's jumper was. Shaq had some big games against him but we should remember that Riley's Knicks didn't like to double a lot and would try getting away with illegal defense/zones. So, Shaq mostly had single coverage against Pat.

Mutombo wasn't as good of a defender in 2001 as advertised, contrary to the popular belief. Shaq's quickness, ability to run the floor plus the excessive offensive fouls were too much for him. Mutombo's defense was at its best from 1994-1999ish and Shaq sure as hell didn't dominate him.

Robinson used to destroy Shaq in their match ups prior to Admiral's 1997 injury. Shaq didn't even guard Robinson that much and that task would be given to Horace Grant because he matched up better than him. Admira's face up game gave Shaq a lot of trouble. Shaq would rather stay inside guarding guys like Rodman and fighting him for boards or the likes of J.R Reid. In defense of Shaq, he did dominate Robinson but Admiral's man defense was a bit overrated and I didn't see bigs scared to go up against him. These two had a rivalry circa 1994/95. Shaq called him soft, was pissed about the freeze out in the 1994 all star game and was fuming after Robinson took away his scoring title. I remember Shaq going on a mission in game 2 of the 1995 conference finals after he found out Robinson was MVP. Wasn't pretty for Rik Smits and the Pacers frontline. In defense of Smits, he used to have some monster games against O'Neal.

Mourning usually struggled against bigger, power players and that's why Shaq used to steaming dumps on him in 90% of their match ups. But, it should be noted that Zo said Dream was his toughest match up.

Hakeem usually got the better of Shaq in their '93-97 match ups (thoroughly outplayed him in the finals) so that's another match up Shaq didn't dominate. Hakeem would force him into turnovers, offensive fouls and would usually post high steals/blocks against O'Neal. Dream had some trouble scoring on him, though since he couldn't power him out or get deep position. Grant also guarded him Dream quite a bit in their 1994/95 and 1995/96 match ups.

Like stated before, Shaq's dominance came in the weakest era of centers ever. Didn't make a single all-nba first team before Dream and Admiral declined, never made a significant impact defensively save for 2000 where he was motivated and needed a go-to-guy/elite swingmen beside him to be successful.

[mikhailjordan]

Shaq made it so a generation of kids didn't want to grow up as centers. They were scared of what he would do to them.

[LascelleL]

SMH....RealGm where Hakeem is God

[JordansBulls]

SMH....RealGm where Hakeem is God

What does "SMH" mean again?

[ThaRegul8r]

SMH....RealGm where Hakeem is God

What does "SMH" mean again?

Shaking My Head

[KING JAMES1978]

what you're trying to assert here is quite ridiculous. when Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson where still relatively young, Shaq didn't even outplay them h2h... and you're trying to tell me he'd dominate them ?

I love how Shaq supporters always make it seem like 00s Shaq was vastly superior to 90s version, just because of the 3-peat against watered down competition. honestly though, 90s Centers were nothing like the crap Shaq went through in the 00s and the h2h battles confirm it.

WTF.Shaq entered the league when he was 20.So all of them Hakeem,Robinson,Ewing were at their primes.Nobody was clearly better than young Shaq.And nobody destroyed him.
So yes a Prime Shaq would destroy any version of Hakeem,Rob and Ewing.
And I'm not a fan of Shaq.
Are you the same person who dispute Wilt and believe Russell is the GOAT?

[bastillon]

look homer, I've already showed that prime Shaq didn't destroy 37 year old Hakeem so what you're trying to tell me is that he'd destroy prime Hakeem ? you're hilarious man.

btw. congratulations, your logic is great: "Shaq wasn't destroyed by them when they were in his prime, so he would destroy them when he is in his prime". I do understand you trying to be a contestant in "dumb post of the year" tournament but the guy from my sig already won it.

[KING JAMES1978]

When you compare players with different ages you speak hypothetical.Shaq's prime is a Top-3 ever.He was scary dominant.
So GTFO and stop continue to dispute Shaq.Then open a thread to give credit to Russell and to dispute Wilt.

[bastillon]

When you compare players with different ages you speak hypothetical.

huh ? I'm not speaking any hypotheticals, whatever the hell that supposed to mean. 37 years old Hakeem held his own against prime Shaq. there's no reason to believe prime Hakeem would be dominated.

but you know what, I'm done here. you've showed persistent inability to listen to reasonable arguments. there's no point in pursuing this.