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Kobe wasn't the best guard since MJ, so nobody is saying that.

He would be in the conversation for best player in the league.

If talking that 2005-2008 range, probably only Jokic, Embiid, Giannis/Luka hovering around that level.

I get that SGA is the shiny new toy, but I think that's somewhat disrespectful given the sample size, if we are truly acknowledging all of the benefits Kobe derives from this wide open, space and pace driven league. The scoring and playmaking gains in numbers purely as someone being run through a potentially helio-offense would be huge. If the question were, who would I feel more comfortable building around then that's a lot harder because I think the balance SGA has struck with his game at the moment is perfection.

On a side note - if Kobe wasn't the best guard since MJ...am I forgetting someone?

JimmyFromNz wrote:If talking that 2005-2008 range, probably only Jokic, Embiid, Giannis/Luka hovering around that level.

I get that SGA is the shiny new toy, but I think that's somewhat disrespectful given the sample size, if we are truly acknowledging all of the benefits Kobe derives from this wide open, space and pace driven league. The scoring and playmaking gains in numbers purely as someone being run through a potentially helio-offense would be huge. If the question were, who would I feel more comfortable building around then that's a lot harder because I think the balance SGA has struck with his game at the moment is perfection.

On a side note - if Kobe wasn't the best guard since MJ...am I forgetting someone?

Steph I would think. Steph v Kobe is a pretty close debate and if we're talking peak then I think Wade over Kobe becomes very arguable.

He'd be the best player in the league.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

JimmyFromNz wrote:If talking that 2005-2008 range, probably only Jokic, Embiid, Giannis/Luka hovering around that level.

I get that SGA is the shiny new toy, but I think that's somewhat disrespectful given the sample size, if we are truly acknowledging all of the benefits Kobe derives from this wide open, space and pace driven league. The scoring and playmaking gains in numbers purely as someone being run through a potentially helio-offense would be huge. If the question were, who would I feel more comfortable building around then that's a lot harder because I think the balance SGA has struck with his game at the moment is perfection.

On a side note - if Kobe wasn't the best guard since MJ...am I forgetting someone?

Steph I would think. Steph v Kobe is a pretty close debate and if we're talking peak then I think Wade over Kobe becomes very arguable.

I interpreted the original comment as during his playing career, at the time he was pretty clear cut for the most part, we have however moved on as a league since.

Agree on Steph overall, wade's peak season in isolation I also probably agree on to.

Somewhere between Haliburton and Cam Thomas

But hes stiol better than Lebron

rebirthoftheM wrote:How can you side-step the reality that increased spacing would have undoubtedly had an appreciable impact on Kobe's game?

Did you not read what I wrote? Yeah, I expect his specific slashlines to go up. I expect his relative efficiency to remain the same, not his absolute. And I think his assist output would also likely rise. Kobe was very good. There are, however, some very good players in the league right now as well.

Kobe settled for shots during his later prime years because he simply couldn't get to the rim due to reduced athleticism and due to the lakers lacking another playmaker that would allow him to operate from the mid-post.

That isn't what I said. I said he took stupid-ass shots, which he did from the word "go" in the league, not just in his athletic twilight.

And during his athleticism prime, spacing was no good and he played against both handchecking and zone.

He had pretty good spacing relative to the rest of the league, actually.

There is no reason why Kobe couldn't average 35 on 58-59% TS in this era.

Sure, but why would you want him to? That's +0% or +1% rTS, that super wouldn't be worth it as a volume scorer. That'd be bad. That would, actually, likely have less positive impact on team success than him rocking 30 ppg on +3% rTS and focusing more on playmaking out of the PnR.

Spacing and lanes to the rim too good. He wouldnt be forced into as many long twos against long defenders due to driving and mid-post lack of access.

I watched a great deal of Kobe from his rookie season forward. His shot selection wasn't dictated by his inability to get past the first defender, man. He took a lot of BS heat checks, just like Carmelo. They were tough shots, shots that appealed to his ego. Yes, sometimes he had to take them because the situation dictated so, but he did it at a frequency which was unnecessary, and far too often very early in the shot clock. Those are the shots I'm talking about, while reminding you that we all agree with the baseline idea that he was still a very good player. I'm not saying he'd be a scrub, I said he'd be a top 7 player in the league. Entertainment value and impact on winning aren't the same thing. And right now, with the talent depth in the league, top 7 is a compliment, a remark on Kobe's translatable ability.

One_and_Done wrote:Looking at the numbers Kobe isn't even terribly close to SGA.

Those number u site that have gobert the best offensive player of all time

Superjohnstarks wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Looking at the numbers Kobe isn't even terribly close to SGA.

Those number u site that have gobert the best offensive player of all time

We’re done with individual ORTG

rk2023 wrote:

Superjohnstarks wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Looking at the numbers Kobe isn't even terribly close to SGA.

Those number u site that have gobert the best offensive player of all time

We’re done with individual ORTG

This isn't about blindly looking at one stat like Ortg, it's looking at the overall package of stats/impact.

SGA 23-24 – 42.3pp100, 7.1rp100, 8.1ap100, 127 Ortg, 632 TS%

Kobe 00-10 – 36.9pp100, 7.6rp100, 6.9ap100, 113 Ortg, 579 TS%

It's really not close. Call me when these stata paint Gobert as better on O than SGA.

One_and_Done wrote:This isn't about blindly looking at one stat like Ortg, it's looking at the overall package of stats/impact.

SGA 23-24 – 42.3pp100, 7.1rp100, 8.1ap100, 127 Ortg, 632 TS%

Kobe 00-10 – 36.9pp100, 7.6rp100, 6.9ap100, 113 Ortg, 579 TS%

It's really not close. Call me when these stata paint Gobert as better on O than SGA.

At the very least you'd need to pick a few of Kobe's best seasons and something like ts+if you are going to compare him to current SGA. The thread is about peak Kobe. Not avg Kobe over 11 year prime.

Pick a peak season from each. Kobe still loses.

tsherkin wrote:Hard to envision him as the best in the game, since he wasn't really consistently that in his own day, but he'd be up there.

Kobe loved to shoot and he had fairly dismal shot selection. We did see him as a 6 3PA/g and we know he wasn't elite in that regard, so we know that wouldn't change too much. Could fairly expect his rim FG% to rise and maybe a teeny boost in his FTr. He'd still be a +3% rTS type player in today's game, which is good. As I consider him, it's hard to imagine him as outside the top ten. He would probably play more helio with heavier pick-and-roll proportion in today's game, which is a bit different than how Phil liked to handle him, so you'd probably see him as a 30/6, 30/7 kind of player on reasonable efficiency.

That starts to smell like a top 7 guy.

I can't really see him ahead of Giannis or Jokic or SGA, or this specific season's incarnation of Haliburton, or Luka. Probably not Steph, either. In the mix with KD, Mitchell, Steph, Lebron, like that. Really good, just not S-tier, so to speak.

You just listed peak Kobe behind this seasons Haliburton That might be the worst take in the history of this forum. Congrats

You underestimate the number of atrocious takes shared regularly.

One_and_Done wrote:

rk2023 wrote:

Superjohnstarks wrote:Those number u site that have gobert the best offensive player of all time

We’re done with individual ORTG

This isn't about blindly looking at one stat like Ortg, it's looking at the overall package of stats/impact.

SGA 23-24 – 42.3pp100, 7.1rp100, 8.1ap100, 127 Ortg, 632 TS%

Kobe 00-10 – 36.9pp100, 7.6rp100, 6.9ap100, 113 Ortg, 579 TS%

It's really not close. Call me when these stata paint Gobert as better on O than SGA.

Is the overall package of impact in the room with us?

One_and_Done wrote:Pick a peak season from each. Kobe still loses.

I have been scrolling through ur feed u make some great post curious where u rank peak jordan in today nba

rk2023 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

rk2023 wrote:
We’re done with individual ORTG

This isn't about blindly looking at one stat like Ortg, it's looking at the overall package of stats/impact.

SGA 23-24 – 42.3pp100, 7.1rp100, 8.1ap100, 127 Ortg, 632 TS%

Kobe 00-10 – 36.9pp100, 7.6rp100, 6.9ap100, 113 Ortg, 579 TS%

It's really not close. Call me when these stata paint Gobert as better on O than SGA.

Is the overall package of impact in the room with us?

Sga is a better finisher,passer,ball handler,midrange shooter and ft shooter I think their pretty even imo I'm saying from the top of my head. Defense goes to sga who grades out in the top percentiles in defensive epm in today superior league compared to Kobe era

Sga grades out at 129 per bballref curious where u got the stat from Mr One_and_Done

Hair Jordan wrote:You just listed peak Kobe behind this seasons Haliburton That might be the worst take in the history of this forum. Congrats

It was different with pre-injury Haliburton at that point in the season, to be fair. I probably should have waited for the season to finish to include his name, though there is something to be said about his overall impact profile and style of play still. Last season, and overall this season, Haliburton has been exerting at worst comparable impact on O to Kobe's best seasons. He isn't the same kind of volume scorer, but he does other things far better than Kobe ever did and that helps change the overall tone.