Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (Voting Complete)

[Silver Bullet]

How did Durrant go from near unanimous 2nd to outside the top 5 based on a Wade series ?

I can only speak for myself.

I had him 3rd in the regular season behind Howard, and ahead of Wade & Kobe. The playoffs clearly put those two ahead of him - but to be clear, it's not so much a "82 games of RS + X games of PS" type thing as it is that the regular season gaps are not that huge, and the playoffs make clear who you'd want to rely on game in and game out on the biggest stage.

So that puts Durant at 5 or lower as a given, and the rest is up for debate. Nash was my #6 in the regular season, and the playoff run most definitely helps him, so it wouldn't be that crazy of a leap for him to slide by Durant as well.

My only problem is you and other counting a 5 game first round series as a playoff run. It's not. There have been plenty of guys who've had monster first round series - And this was a 5 seed vs 4 seed matchup. Say what you will, but for a 5 seed to go down 4-1 to a 4 seed does not in any way prove that Wade is the guy you'd want to rely on game in and game out.

All it shows is, that he can put up big numbers in a losing cause.

[Sedale Threatt]

We've also seen him put up big numbers in a pretty winning cause as well, so we know he can do that if given the necessary support. Put another way, that loss had absolutely, positively nothing to do with him.

In comparison to Durant, whose poor play had a major impact in his team losing against the Lakers. If he shows up, they probably take it to seven, maybe even luck out after that.

[Gongxi]

How did Durrant go from near unanimous 2nd to outside the top 5 based on a Wade series ?

I don't get what you are saying with Wade at all, but Durant wasn't near my consensus 2 at any point, he just doesn't bring as much to a team as the other 3 wing players.

Wade's series seems to have catapulted him from 4 to 1 - And because people now remember Kobe-Wade-Bron instead of Lebron-Durrant... Durrant has fell off the map because of no fault of his own.

Other than Joyner, who was saying it was LeBron-Durant and Wade was at 4? I actually had Durant at 3 and Kobe at 4 going into the playoffs, but Kobe clearly had a much better PS than Durant to the point that it was "more better" than Durant over Kobe in the RS. But Dwight? No.

[LAKERS_1981]

Why is Wade geting so mutch Love???
He had nice stats but we was a superstar on a bad team(they always have nice stats). He had to play many min and making the playoffs in the east is no big deal.
I dont vote but you have to look at more things that just stats and awards(it is hard to do that for season long ago but this just finish).
1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Durant
5. Howard

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Why are people jumping in to vote on this year who haven't contributed to this project in any other year? I chose not to participate a while back because I knew I wouldn't be much good at years prior to around 95, but I've still followed it closely and I'm seeing a lot of posters in this thread who haven't participated at all who are suddenly interested to throw their vote out there.

[Optimism Prime]

Why are people jumping in to vote on this year who haven't contributed to this project in any other year? I chose not to participate a while back because I knew I wouldn't be much good at years prior to around 95, but I've still followed it closely and I'm seeing a lot of posters in this thread who haven't participated at all who are suddenly interested to throw their vote out there.

Pick one:
Because they lack reading comprehension
Because they NEED to make their voice heard on the Lebron/Kobe/Wade ranking and criticize those that disagree
Because they hate Doctor MJ and want to make life tough on him when he counts the votes.

[ElGee]

Going to re-post this from other thread b/c I think it has died.

I'm curious as to everyone's take on this. Found this from an article from the playoffs post game 5. This is the pivotal quarter from game 5 vs. the Celtics. Would people call this a good quarter? Horrible quarter? Good but only OK for James?

Code: Select all

P1: West sets up Andy open J (good).      *James quick touch and pass
P2: Andy passes it into backcourt         *James no touch
P3: West off curl misses in lane v Sheed  *James no touch
P4: James crazy shot v TA in lane (good)
P5: James contested 3 on catch v TA (miss)
P6: Williams contested 3 (miss)           *James no touch (guarded by PP)
P7: James 20 foot fade over Ray (good)
   -James, starts at 15 on clock at line,
   shut off by Ray at 10, Parker open     (pierce left him to go to elbow)
   -James gets it right back at 9 from Mo,
   drives right they call touch foul on Allen
   -James again at 11 seconds, 28 feet away,
   head down, Pierce comes, scores
P8: Jamison drives and scores on KG      *James no touch
P9: Offensive foul on Shaq posting       *James no touch
P10: Parker misses open 3,
   Jamison follow good                   *James no touch
P11: James stripped by Rondo → layup
P12: Williams pass intercepted by Rondo      
   -James doubled in corner and gave it to Mo
P13: James pass tipped by KG,
  jump ball to C's                       *credited TO to Jamison??
P14: Parker misses contested 3           *James no touch
   -Williams misses crazy 2 over Rondo
   (tried to draw foul), Andy gets board
P15: James drives by Rondo and fouled (2-2)
P16: Andy fouled in lane off Mo double (1-2)   *James started at top and
                                                passed to Fish
P17: Parker 1-2 FT after loose ball foul       *James no touch (couldn't)
P18: James (dubious) fouled on 3 by Ray (3-3)
P19: Parker breakaway foul off jump (0-2)      *James pass to Parker
P20: Jamison putback James missed 28 foot fade 3!
P21: James missed 3 v Ray again, Andy putback
P22: James misses fade contested 3 (Williams miss 3 at buzzer)

James: 2-6 FG 5-5 FT 2 TO 0 ast (“10 pos used, 9 points”) **technically 1 TO
Rest of Cavs: 5-11 FG 2-6 FT 3 TO 4 Oreb

G2 or G4 aside (if those are also quibbles), what's your take on this quarter?

Bad quarter, too much 1 on 5 ball for Lebron when he had the ball, or he wasn't invovled in the play at all. He had 6 shots, and 0 assists with 2 turnovers.

And Bryant didn't have a bad quarter like that in a big game?? (Directed to everyone, not just UBF.)

[An Unbiased Fan]

Going to re-post this from other thread b/c I think it has died.

I'm curious as to everyone's take on this. Found this from an article from the playoffs post game 5. This is the pivotal quarter from game 5 vs. the Celtics. Would people call this a good quarter? Horrible quarter? Good but only OK for James?

Code: Select all

P1: West sets up Andy open J (good).      *James quick touch and pass
P2: Andy passes it into backcourt         *James no touch
P3: West off curl misses in lane v Sheed  *James no touch
P4: James crazy shot v TA in lane (good)
P5: James contested 3 on catch v TA (miss)
P6: Williams contested 3 (miss)           *James no touch (guarded by PP)
P7: James 20 foot fade over Ray (good)
   -James, starts at 15 on clock at line,
   shut off by Ray at 10, Parker open     (pierce left him to go to elbow)
   -James gets it right back at 9 from Mo,
   drives right they call touch foul on Allen
   -James again at 11 seconds, 28 feet away,
   head down, Pierce comes, scores
P8: Jamison drives and scores on KG      *James no touch
P9: Offensive foul on Shaq posting       *James no touch
P10: Parker misses open 3,
   Jamison follow good                   *James no touch
P11: James stripped by Rondo → layup
P12: Williams pass intercepted by Rondo      
   -James doubled in corner and gave it to Mo
P13: James pass tipped by KG,
  jump ball to C's                       *credited TO to Jamison??
P14: Parker misses contested 3           *James no touch
   -Williams misses crazy 2 over Rondo
   (tried to draw foul), Andy gets board
P15: James drives by Rondo and fouled (2-2)
P16: Andy fouled in lane off Mo double (1-2)   *James started at top and
                                                passed to Fish
P17: Parker 1-2 FT after loose ball foul       *James no touch (couldn't)
P18: James (dubious) fouled on 3 by Ray (3-3)
P19: Parker breakaway foul off jump (0-2)      *James pass to Parker
P20: Jamison putback James missed 28 foot fade 3!
P21: James missed 3 v Ray again, Andy putback
P22: James misses fade contested 3 (Williams miss 3 at buzzer)

James: 2-6 FG 5-5 FT 2 TO 0 ast (“10 pos used, 9 points”) **technically 1 TO
Rest of Cavs: 5-11 FG 2-6 FT 3 TO 4 Oreb

G2 or G4 aside (if those are also quibbles), what's your take on this quarter?

Bad quarter, too much 1 on 5 ball for Lebron when he had the ball, or he wasn't invovled in the play at all. He had 6 shots, and 0 assists with 2 turnovers.

And Bryant didn't have a bad quarter like that in a big game?? (Directed to everyone, not just UBF.)

Never said he didn't. Your post asked for opinions on that specific quarter, and I provided one.

It should also be pointed out that the 3rd quarter was Lebron's best quarter that game, which speaks to how bad it was. He didn't score a field goal until the 3rd on an outlet pass fast break. He was 1-8 shooting in the other quarters.

Understand, that people aren't downgrading Lebron for just one bad quarter, or game. It's about his total lack of leadership throughout the whole series. He's still a great individual player, but has a small impact as a team player, which is amazing considering how good a passer he is.

Think of the recent POY debates in the 80's, and how we regard Magic & Bird. Notice how much their team skills come to the forefront. That's what Lebron lacks and failed to deliver in the playoffs. It's like that old school movie Teen Wolf, where Michael J. Fox is on the basketball team dominating the ball all game, while his teammates stand around and are ignored. Lebron has to learn how to get guys off, and put them in the position/spots where they are most effective, instead of just throwing up his hands and saying he has no help, while playing 1 on 5.

No team is 100% healthy, or has all guys hitting on all cyclinders during a PS(except maybe the 01' Lakers), so it's up to the Star player to overcome that adversity. Bynum has been hurt the last 3 postseasons, but I don't see people giving Kobe an out if the lose, in fact, they killed him for losing the 08' Finals in 6 games. Dwight had to deal with his all-star PG being hurt....and still upset the Cavs last year. Wade had to deal with a banged up Shaq in 06', etc., etc. The crazy thing is the Cavs have been healthy the last 2 years and still under-achieved bigtime. It's up to Lebron to utilize guys like Jamison, Mo, and Shaq. We see Nash do it, Duncan do it, Kobe do it.

Gaudy production numbers are great if you're in a fantasy league, but they only matter if they're IMPACTFUL stats, which is my biggest critique of Lebron. Having one player dominate the ball & stat sheet so much does nothing other than help him, it certainly doesn't help the team prosper as a group.

[ElGee]

To those who are propping Kobe up (assuming you didn't already have him No. 1 which seems absolutely preplexing given his injuries and struggles) and knocking James down, how much are you valuing the postseason and how is Kobe's postseason better than LeBron's? If your answer is "leadership," that's obviously too ethereal to challenge.

Defensive Playoff Stats among contenders (courtesy my firm which prefers to remain anonymous)

Code: Select all

        Opp FG%  Shots against/100
James    .276   7.2
Wade     .279   5.5
Howard   .276   13.7
Durant   .302   10.2
Bryant   .376   5.9
Gasol    .406   14.0
Nash     .433   6.9
Williams .439   6.9
Ginobili .439   5.0
Nowitzki .451   8.3


Losing contact with defensive responsibility:

Code: Select all

       Defensive Errors/100
Nash     0.64
Durant   0.81
Howard   0.85
Ginobili 1.08
James    1.13
Nowitzki 1.18
Wade     1.28
Gasol    1.34
Williams 1.42
Bryant   2.30


Shooting foul rates:

Code: Select all

        FT's against/100
Nash     1.67
Durant   1.85
James    2.03
Wade     2.31
Nowitzki 2.36
Ginobili 2.71
Bryant   2.77
Williams 3.11
Gasol    3.27
Howard   4.51

FInally, an offensive stat I like, fouls drawn:

Code: Select all

          Fouls drawn/100
Howard    13.09
Durant    8.54
James     8.46
Williams  8.29
Nowitzki  7.07
Bryant    6.89
Gasol     6.72
Wade      6.67
Ginobili  6.03
Nash      3.15


[Doctor MJ]

How did Durrant go from near unanimous 2nd to outside the top 5 based on a Wade series ?

I can only speak for myself.

I had him 3rd in the regular season behind Howard, and ahead of Wade & Kobe. The playoffs clearly put those two ahead of him - but to be clear, it's not so much a "82 games of RS + X games of PS" type thing as it is that the regular season gaps are not that huge, and the playoffs make clear who you'd want to rely on game in and game out on the biggest stage.

So that puts Durant at 5 or lower as a given, and the rest is up for debate. Nash was my #6 in the regular season, and the playoff run most definitely helps him, so it wouldn't be that crazy of a leap for him to slide by Durant as well.

My only problem is you and other counting a 5 game first round series as a playoff run. It's not. There have been plenty of guys who've had monster first round series - And this was a 5 seed vs 4 seed matchup. Say what you will, but for a 5 seed to go down 4-1 to a 4 seed does not in any way prove that Wade is the guy you'd want to rely on game in and game out.

All it shows is, that he can put up big numbers in a losing cause.

This is why I'm trying to emphasize that it's not a math thing. With Durant being a young player who has never played in the playoffs before I just have less faith in his immediate ability. Had he performed well in the playoffs, he'd have been fine - but as is, I just can't claim I'd have rather had him this year than Kobe or Wade.

Re: 1 vs 8, 4 vs 5. Honestly, the Lakers were playing like crap at the end of the regular season, and while Gasol started picking it up in the OKC series, Kobe didn't. Boston on the other hand looked so sharp against Miami I didn't know what to make of it until I saw what they did to their subsequent opponents. Bottom line - if the Lakers play like that the rest of the playoffs, not only do they lose to the Celtics - they lose to the Suns.

[Doctor MJ]

To those who are propping Kobe up (assuming you didn't already have him No. 1 which seems absolutely preplexing given his injuries and struggles) and knocking James down, how much are you valuing the postseason and how is Kobe's postseason better than LeBron's? If your answer is "leadership," that's obviously too ethereal to challenge.

Defensive Playoff Stats among contenders (courtesy my firm which prefers to remain anonymous)

<stats>

Fascinating stuff.

[ElGee]

Never said he didn't. Your post asked for opinions on that specific quarter, and I provided one.

It should also be pointed out that the 3rd quarter was Lebron's best quarter that game, which speaks to how bad it was. He didn't score a field goal until the 3rd on an outlet pass fast break. He was 1-8 shooting in the other quarters.

Understand, that people aren't downgrading Lebron for just one bad quarter, or game. It's about his total lack of leadership throughout the whole series. He's still a great individual player, but has a small impact as a team player, which is amazing considering how good a passer he is.

Think of the recent POY debates in the 80's, and how we regard Magic & Bird. Notice how much their team skills come to the forefront. That's what Lebron lacks and failed to deliver in the playoffs. It's like that old school movie Teen Wolf, where Michael J. Fox is on the basketball team dominating the ball all game, while his teammates stand around and are ignored. Lebron has to learn how to get guys off, and put them in the position/spots where they are most effective, instead of just throwing up his hands and saying he has no help, while playing 1 on 5.

No team is 100% healthy, or has all guys hitting on all cyclinders during a PS(except maybe the 01' Lakers), so it's up to the Star player to overcome that adversity. Bynum has been hurt the last 3 postseasons, but I don't see people giving Kobe an out if the lose, in fact, they killed him for losing the 08' Finals in 6 games. Dwight had to deal with his all-star PG being hurt....and still upset the Cavs last year. Wade had to deal with a banged up Shaq in 06', etc., etc. The crazy thing is the Cavs have been healthy the last 2 years and still under-achieved bigtime. It's up to Lebron to utilize guys like Jamison, Mo, and Shaq. We see Nash do it, Duncan do it, Kobe do it.

Gaudy production numbers are great if you're in a fantasy league, but they only matter if they're IMPACTFUL stats, which is my biggest critique of Lebron. Having one player dominate the ball & stat sheet so much does nothing other than help him, it certainly doesn't help the team prosper as a group.

You keep pimping this line, but what the heck does it mean? Do his points count less than others? Do his assists count less? He IS that team.

He creates a similar amount of offense for his teammates as Wade and Bryant. I already posted his efficiency in PnR situations. His assists are higher (which means he's passing to players who SCORE -- it still counts as a score) His team's ORtg in the regular season was 116.6 with him on the court. +15. Nash is 118 (+6) in Phoenix. Kobe 112.5 (+(9) with the Lakers.

re: The Cavs team. What does LeBron driving, getting double or triple-teamed, passing to an open player and having him miss have to do with LeBron??? Mo Williams missed open shot after open shot. He air-balled an open elbow jumper in G6. Jamison nearly fumbled the ball away by himself on an open shot in G6, wide open from the wing, and clanged the ball off the side of the backboard. Furthermore, Mo Williams and Jamison couldn't guard a lamp post. I suppose that's all LeBron's fault though??

And finally, you keep harping on this ball domination. How should they run the offense? I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Cleveland can improve on that crappy 116 ORtg (for 2 consecutive years) with 90% of the offense going through James. Should they run the flex? Motion? Post Z more? High PnR with Williams? I suppose Phoenix should stop having Nash "ball-dominate" so much?

[Doctor MJ]

Because they hate Doctor MJ and want to make life tough on him when he counts the votes.

[Doctor MJ]

Why are people jumping in to vote on this year who haven't contributed to this project in any other year? I chose not to participate a while back because I knew I wouldn't be much good at years prior to around 95, but I've still followed it closely and I'm seeing a lot of posters in this thread who haven't participated at all who are suddenly interested to throw their vote out there.

Yeah, what can you do?

Know that their votes won't be counted - and I appreciate you making this easier for me.

[Optimism Prime]

Because they hate Doctor MJ and want to make life tough on him when he counts the votes.

I'm not saying they're right or wrong for it, just saying that's a potential motivation.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Never said he didn't. Your post asked for opinions on that specific quarter, and I provided one.

It should also be pointed out that the 3rd quarter was Lebron's best quarter that game, which speaks to how bad it was. He didn't score a field goal until the 3rd on an outlet pass fast break. He was 1-8 shooting in the other quarters.

Understand, that people aren't downgrading Lebron for just one bad quarter, or game. It's about his total lack of leadership throughout the whole series. He's still a great individual player, but has a small impact as a team player, which is amazing considering how good a passer he is.

Think of the recent POY debates in the 80's, and how we regard Magic & Bird. Notice how much their team skills come to the forefront. That's what Lebron lacks and failed to deliver in the playoffs. It's like that old school movie Teen Wolf, where Michael J. Fox is on the basketball team dominating the ball all game, while his teammates stand around and are ignored. Lebron has to learn how to get guys off, and put them in the position/spots where they are most effective, instead of just throwing up his hands and saying he has no help, while playing 1 on 5.

No team is 100% healthy, or has all guys hitting on all cyclinders during a PS(except maybe the 01' Lakers), so it's up to the Star player to overcome that adversity. Bynum has been hurt the last 3 postseasons, but I don't see people giving Kobe an out if the lose, in fact, they killed him for losing the 08' Finals in 6 games. Dwight had to deal with his all-star PG being hurt....and still upset the Cavs last year. Wade had to deal with a banged up Shaq in 06', etc., etc. The crazy thing is the Cavs have been healthy the last 2 years and still under-achieved bigtime. It's up to Lebron to utilize guys like Jamison, Mo, and Shaq. We see Nash do it, Duncan do it, Kobe do it.

Gaudy production numbers are great if you're in a fantasy league, but they only matter if they're IMPACTFUL stats, which is my biggest critique of Lebron. Having one player dominate the ball & stat sheet so much does nothing other than help him, it certainly doesn't help the team prosper as a group.

You keep pimping this line, but what the heck does it mean? Do his points count less than others? Do his assists count less? He IS that team.

He creates a similar amount of offense for his teammates as Wade and Bryant. I already posted his efficiency in PnR situations. His assists are higher (which means he's passing to players who SCORE -- it still counts as a score) His team's ORtg in the regular season was 116.6 with him on the court. +15. Nash is 118 (+6) in Phoenix. Kobe 112.5 (+(9) with the Lakers.

re: The Cavs team. What does LeBron driving, getting double or triple-teamed, passing to an open player and having him miss have to do with LeBron??? Mo Williams missed open shot after open shot. He air-balled an open elbow jumper in G6. Jamison nearly fumbled the ball away by himself on an open shot in G6, wide open from the wing, and clanged the ball off the side of the backboard. Furthermore, Mo Williams and Jamison couldn't guard a lamp post. I suppose that's all LeBron's fault though??

And finally, you keep harping on this ball domination. How should they run the offense? I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Cleveland can improve on that crappy 116 ORtg (for 2 consecutive years) with 90% of the offense going through James. Should they run the flex? Motion? Post Z more? High PnR with Williams? I suppose Phoenix should stop having Nash "ball-dominate" so much?

Not all points are the same, not all assists are the same. Lebron's points came at the expense of team flow & ball movement most of the time in those playoffs. Going to the top of the key, putting your head down, and either driving or taking a jumper is not very impactful for anyone but James. Others need to touch the ball, and they don't unless James is doubled or caught in traffic. Even when he passes the ball, he's calling for it back shortly after, and his teammates never get any rythem on the floor. That's why Cavs management put catch & shoot players around him. Aguy like Jamison who is a career 20 & 8 player, CAN create his own shot, but did he ever get that opportunity. And when his play regresses, is it that he just forgot how to play, or maybe that the system & main ball-handler have turned him into a spot up roleplayer?

Btw, here's what the Cav supporting cast shot in the playoffs:

Jamison shot 47% FG (above career avg) and added 7.4 rpg. Hell, The whole supporting cast shot 45.7%. So were they that bad, or were they just marginalized.

Basketball is a team game. Any star who plays 1 on 5, can put up amazing numbers, but it's those who can find the right balance, who get others off and not just himself, who sacrifices stats so that others can produce, that end up excelling and leading their team further. Look at how Nash gets assists by finding guys in the right spots & utilizing their strengths, versus Lebron dribblling from the 3pt line, and passing out when doubled. Nash assists are the result of playmaking, lebron's are because the ball's in his hands half the time. very different impact wise, and you can see this in how Nash's cast plays vs Lebron's. Put Jamison on the Suns, and I guarantee you he's not regressing.

When you add in the fact that Lebron finished that Boston series in an ugly fashion, and Cleveland lost with the best record/HCA in the 2nd orund, it's easy to see why his PS performance is looked at poorly. If he were Dirk or DRob, he would be getting destroyed right now.

[ElGee]

This is why I'm trying to emphasize that it's not a math thing. With Durant being a young player who has never played in the playoffs before I just have less faith in his immediate ability. Had he performed well in the playoffs, he'd have been fine - but as is, I just can't claim I'd have rather had him this year than Kobe or Wade.

Re: 1 vs 8, 4 vs 5. Honestly, the Lakers were playing like crap at the end of the regular season, and while Gasol started picking it up in the OKC series, Kobe didn't. Boston on the other hand looked so sharp against Miami I didn't know what to make of it until I saw what they did to their subsequent opponents. Bottom line - if the Lakers play like that the rest of the playoffs, not only do they lose to the Celtics - they lose to the Suns.

Kobe's OKC series was significantly worse than LeBron's Bos series. He was essentially average in that series. LeBron's series against Boston was better than Kobe's 3 other series outside of Phoenix (offensively Bryant was better vs. Utah as well).

So how do you balance this? How does a bad first round compare to a bad second round or FInals? Gasol (and Bynum to a degree) saved LA in the first round from epic embarrassment. Heck, Gasol literally cleaned up G6 to avoid a G7 after Kobe missed. And Durant didn't play well at all...

Offensively:
Bryant v OKC
G1: 6-19 FG 7-12 FT 2 TO. Regular offense created.
G2: 12-28 FG 13-15 FT 4 TO. Little offense created.
G3: 10-29 FG 0-0 FT 3 TO. Regular offense created. 8 assists. (Durant smothered Kobe in 4th Q)
G4: 5-10 FG 1-2 FT 3 TO. Regular offense created.
G5: 4-9 FG 5-7 FT 4 TO. Regular offense created. 7 assists.
G6: 12-25 FT 5-7 FT 5 TO. Less offense crated.

4 OReb in series. 6.76 fouls/100

Jamesv Bos
G1 12-24 FG 8-11 FT 2 TO. Little offense created.
G2 7-15 FG 10-15 FT 5 TO. Regular offense created.
G3 14-22 FG 8-9 FT. 1 TO. Less offense created.
G4 7-18 FG 8-11 FT 7 TO. Regular offense created.
G5 3-14 FG 9-12 FT 3 TO. Less offense created.
G6 8-21 FG 9-12 FT 9 TO. Regular offense created.

9 OReb in series. 9.68 fouls/100.

Defensively:

G1-G4 Bryant wasn't very good defensively. Mostly guarding Thabo. He switched to Westbrook and distrupted him (and maybe psyched him out) in G5, but this wasn't exactly Pippen v Marc Jackson in 1998. Westbrook still smoked him off the dribble twice and had moderate success offensively -- but Bryant certainly slowed him down.

In G6 Bryant was on Westbrook predominantly again, and this time Westbrook had a better game. Scoring on Bryant a handful of times, beating him badly off the bounce once, and creating a lot again for his teammates (back to 9 assists in this game).

I've already posted what James did to Pierce defensively in his series. Celtics shot 25% against him. Very few errors. Excellent defensive rebounding.

[tkb]

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade
3. LeBron James
4. Kevin Durant
5. Dwight Howard

[An Unbiased Fan]

To those who are propping Kobe up (assuming you didn't already have him No. 1 which seems absolutely preplexing given his injuries and struggles) and knocking James down, how much are you valuing the postseason and how is Kobe's postseason better than LeBron's? If your answer is "leadership," that's obviously too ethereal to challenge.

Leading his team trough 4 quality opponents and getting Finals MVP is a major reason. When the OKC series as 2-2, and the THunder had the momentum, Kobe asked to guard Westbrook and changed the complexion of that series. From that point, LA went on to win 8 straight games, and Kobe himself had a 30 point streak. When Phoenix tied their series at 2-2, Kobe again hit shot after shot to lead LA to a win.

Here's Kobe's game logs from the 2010 playoffs. These were against 4 50+-win teams:

OKC:
G1 - 21/2/3
G2 - 39/5/1
G3 - 24/4/8
G4 - 12/3/4
G5 - 13/3/7
G6 - 32/6/7

Utah:
G1 - 31/3/4
G2 - 30/5/8
G3 - 35/4/7
G4 - 32/3/4

PHX:
G1 - 40/5/5
G2 - 21/5/13
G3 - 36/9/11
G4 - 38/7/10
G5 - 30/11/9
G6 - 37/4/6

Boston:
G1 - 30/6/7
G2 - 21/5/6
G3 - 29/5/7
G4 - 33/6/2
G5 - 38/5/4
G6 - 26/11/3
G7 - 23/25/2

The sheer volume of great games Kobe had clearly puts his PS performance at #1.

Kobe had 3 games with a Game score of 30 or better, and 15 with a Game score of 20 or better. That's a great PS run. Wade had only 1 game that was above 30, the rest were 20+. Lebron had 3 30+ Games scores against Chicago, and 2 in the Boston series, but he also had an equal amount of sub 20 games too. So he was very sink or swim during his PS run. Dwight had no games that were above 30, and most were sub 20. Durant had the worst of them all, he managed one game at 21.8, the rest were all below 17.7.

So yes, I would say Kobe showed more consistentcy and dominance during the PS than anyone by good measure.

[ElGee]

Never said he didn't. Your post asked for opinions on that specific quarter, and I provided one.

It should also be pointed out that the 3rd quarter was Lebron's best quarter that game, which speaks to how bad it was. He didn't score a field goal until the 3rd on an outlet pass fast break. He was 1-8 shooting in the other quarters.

Understand, that people aren't downgrading Lebron for just one bad quarter, or game. It's about his total lack of leadership throughout the whole series. He's still a great individual player, but has a small impact as a team player, which is amazing considering how good a passer he is.

Think of the recent POY debates in the 80's, and how we regard Magic & Bird. Notice how much their team skills come to the forefront. That's what Lebron lacks and failed to deliver in the playoffs. It's like that old school movie Teen Wolf, where Michael J. Fox is on the basketball team dominating the ball all game, while his teammates stand around and are ignored. Lebron has to learn how to get guys off, and put them in the position/spots where they are most effective, instead of just throwing up his hands and saying he has no help, while playing 1 on 5.

No team is 100% healthy, or has all guys hitting on all cyclinders during a PS(except maybe the 01' Lakers), so it's up to the Star player to overcome that adversity. Bynum has been hurt the last 3 postseasons, but I don't see people giving Kobe an out if the lose, in fact, they killed him for losing the 08' Finals in 6 games. Dwight had to deal with his all-star PG being hurt....and still upset the Cavs last year. Wade had to deal with a banged up Shaq in 06', etc., etc. The crazy thing is the Cavs have been healthy the last 2 years and still under-achieved bigtime. It's up to Lebron to utilize guys like Jamison, Mo, and Shaq. We see Nash do it, Duncan do it, Kobe do it.

Gaudy production numbers are great if you're in a fantasy league, but they only matter if they're IMPACTFUL stats, which is my biggest critique of Lebron. Having one player dominate the ball & stat sheet so much does nothing other than help him, it certainly doesn't help the team prosper as a group.

You keep pimping this line, but what the heck does it mean? Do his points count less than others? Do his assists count less? He IS that team.

He creates a similar amount of offense for his teammates as Wade and Bryant. I already posted his efficiency in PnR situations. His assists are higher (which means he's passing to players who SCORE -- it still counts as a score) His team's ORtg in the regular season was 116.6 with him on the court. +15. Nash is 118 (+6) in Phoenix. Kobe 112.5 (+(9) with the Lakers.

re: The Cavs team. What does LeBron driving, getting double or triple-teamed, passing to an open player and having him miss have to do with LeBron??? Mo Williams missed open shot after open shot. He air-balled an open elbow jumper in G6. Jamison nearly fumbled the ball away by himself on an open shot in G6, wide open from the wing, and clanged the ball off the side of the backboard. Furthermore, Mo Williams and Jamison couldn't guard a lamp post. I suppose that's all LeBron's fault though??

And finally, you keep harping on this ball domination. How should they run the offense? I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Cleveland can improve on that crappy 116 ORtg (for 2 consecutive years) with 90% of the offense going through James. Should they run the flex? Motion? Post Z more? High PnR with Williams? I suppose Phoenix should stop having Nash "ball-dominate" so much?

Not all points are the same, not all assists are the same. Lebron's points came at the expense of team flow & ball movement most of the time in those playoffs. Going to the top of the key, putting your head down, and either driving or taking a jumper is not very impactful for anyone but James. Others need to touch the ball, and they don't unless James is doubled or caught in traffic. Even when he passes the ball, he's calling for it back shortly after, and his teammates never get any rythem on the floor. That's why Cavs management put catch & shoot players around him. Aguy like Jamison who is a career 20 & 8 player, CAN create his own shot, but did he ever get that opportunity. And when his play regresses, is it that he just forgot how to play, or maybe that the system & main ball-handler have turned him into a spot up roleplayer?

Btw, here's what the Cav supporting cast shot in the playoffs:

Jamison shot 47% FG (above career avg) and added 7.4 rpg. Hell, The whole supporting cast shot 45.7%. So were they that bad, or were they just marginalized.

Basketball is a team game. Any star who plays 1 on 5, can put up amazing numbers, but it's those who can find the right balance, who get others off and not just himself, who sacrifices stats so that others can produce, that end up excelling and leading their team further. Look at how Nash gets assists by finding guys in the right spots & utilizing their strengths, versus Lebron dribblling from the 3pt line, and passing out when doubled. Nash assists are the result of playmaking, lebron's are because the ball's in his hands half the time. very different impact wise, and you can see this in how Nash's cast plays vs Lebron's. Put Jamison on the Suns, and I guarantee you he's not regressing.

When you add in the fact that Lebron finished that Boston series in an ugly fashion, and Cleveland lost with the best record/HCA in the 2nd orund, it's easy to see why his PS performance is looked at poorly. If he were Dirk or DRob, he would be getting destroyed right now.

Umm, c'mon, not in the Celtics series.

Jamison: .422
WIlliams: .409

Rest of team (not LeBron): 142-316 (.449). Down from .480 in the regular season.

I mean, Mike Brown had Shaq guarding Kevin Garnett to start G6. What does that have to do with LeBron James (KG went 3-3 before they switched off).

Furthermore, you're disproving your own point. Jamison didn't regress with LeBron! He's played on 2 good teams (Dallas, Cleveland) and his numbers were better on Cleveland. If you think Jamison's a 20-8 guy on a good team (or a legit No. 2 option) I don't know what to tell you...

And what do you mean all points don't count the same? They do count the same. 2 points are 2 points. Do you have an example of when 2 points aren't 2 points? Do they count as more when Kobe Bryant scores them?

Btw, Steve Nash calls for the ball back immediately when Phoenix runs high PnR. Magic Johnson called for the ball back immediately during the second half of the 80s in the halfcourt. LeBron's creating, not just open shots, but layups for players like Varajeo and Hickson.

And, per the norm, you ignored all of the points about Cleveland's TEAM ORtg as a result of LeBron's "ball dominant" style. And you didn't suggest what they should do to improve.