prime Shaq vs HOF Cs head-to-head

[Warspite]

TLAF,

I'm assuming in your post, Russell gains at least 15lbs bc there's no way he can defend Shaq at his 60s weight, the same way Shaq at 330lbs wouldn't last 15mins in Russell's era. Shaq's exploitation of his size would overwhelm Russell.

When you grow up and get a job/married and raise a family (shudders) and go from being pre teen to 30s and 40s you will notice the your weight will increase. Its pretty much a given that everyones weight increases just as there hair falls out.

23ppg 12rpg vs HOF GOAT Cs is pretty impressive IMHO. Thats about what I would expect with any top 10 C to put up vs another top 10 C.

[kooldude]

TLAF,

I'm assuming in your post, Russell gains at least 15lbs bc there's no way he can defend Shaq at his 60s weight, the same way Shaq at 330lbs wouldn't last 15mins in Russell's era. Shaq's exploitation of his size would overwhelm Russell.

When you grow up and get a job/married and raise a family (shudders) and go from being pre teen to 30s and 40s you will notice the your weight will increase. Its pretty much a given that everyones weight increases just as there hair falls out.

23ppg 12rpg vs HOF GOAT Cs is pretty impressive IMHO. Thats about what I would expect with any top 10 C to put up vs another top 10 C.

Ok that's great....

[ronnymac2]

Shaq supporters: prime Shaq would dominate/run through any HOF C
research: prime Shaq didn't dominate any of the 90s HOF Cs
Shaq supporters: you're trying to make it seem like Shaq was a scrub

give me a break. most of you, like Ronny, Jaypo are talking BS offtopic. refer to the results of Shaq playing an elite competition to a standstill and don't pretend as if he was much better than these guys. we're not trying to minimize what Shaq did, but putting his accomplishments in all-time context, which is extremely important in this case, considering the competition.

Nah I understand. I was just being a douche.

I'm not sure I get what the thread is asking for though. 90's Shaq didn't dominate the other great C's of the 90's, and they didn't dominate him. 2000 Shaq dominated his competition, but that competition was inferior to what he had in the 90's in terms of individual matchups. I think everybody can agree with these statements.


Unfortunately, we'll never really know how 2000 Shaq would stack up against 1994 Hakeem. Asking that question is like asking Jabbar of 77 vs. Wilt of 67. We can all speculate, but we just don't know. The only thing messing people up here is that the gap in years between Hakeem's peak and Shaq's peak is small- yet they clearly never peaked at the same time. Once again, we can only speculate.

If the question is "Was peak O'neal in 2000 that much better than, say, 95 O'neal?"....well, I wouldn't say he was that much better. He was clearly superior though. More trust in his moves come playoff time, better at reading defenses/passing, more patience, better defense, more experienced, and a better big-game player.

In a playoff series, I'd still take 95 and 96 Shaq over any version of David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Deke, and ZO. I wouldn't think twice to be honest. I'd take prime Olajuwon over that version of Shaq though....and that wouldn't be a difficult decision either. Not that it isn't close- but it is clear.

Now....2000 Shaq is equal to peak Hakeem imo. Honestly, I think if 2000 Shaq faced Peak Hakeem with equal teams, they'd produce much like they did in the 95 Finals, except Shaq would score a little more this time. Impact-wise, Shaq's performance would improve, and they'd battle to a draw. 95 Shaq could match numbers with 95 Hakeem, which speaks volumes about how awesome Shaq is, but he wasn't a better player really- Hakeem was superior. 2000 Shaq closes the gap there.

[jaypo]

LOL @ this dude jaypo talking about revising history when saying O'Neal outplayed Olajuwon is the definition of revisionist history.

Hakeem thoroughly outplayed Shaq. Fact.

First off, I'm not of the opinion that Shaq outplayed Akeem. I think he played him evenly. I am of the opinion that Shaq put up better stats, although Akeem was better in the clutch. My point of that statement was to show the yin and yang of the double standard when it comes to people that think they know about Shaq.

Secondly, Hakeem did NOT outplay Shaq. That isn't a fact. His team won, sure. But who won that series? The role players. Shaq shot better. He rebounded more. He assisted and blocked more. But Akeem got him on clutch plays. So in my OPINION, they played each other EVEN. Akeem's teammates stepped up, and Shaq's didn't. If Nick Anderson hits 1 of 4 free throws and the Magic take a 1-0 lead, psychologically, they gain the advantage and possibly the role players play up to their potential, sweeping the Rockets. Then, Shaq's team wins 4-0 AND he has better stats than Akeem. How do we view that argument? Do we say that Akeem dominates Shaq? Even though he put up worse stats in a losing effort? No, my friend. The perception is that Shaq got dominated because Akeem had a bunch of fancy moves and dropped 32 ppg on him. However, he did so on 44%shooting, while Shaq scored only 4 less points on 57% shooting.

So in summary, neither player outplayed the other. Shaq put up better numbers, but he couldn't shut down Akeem. And Akeem couldn't shut down Shaq. Akeem's team stepped up, and Akeem played well down the stretch. Fact. You can remember it any way you like. But that is how it actually happened!

[DatWasNashty]

First off, I'm not of the opinion that Shaq outplayed Akeem. I think he played him evenly. I am of the opinion that Shaq put up better stats, although Akeem was better in the clutch. My point of that statement was to show the yin and yang of the double standard when it comes to people that think they know about Shaq.

Shaq wasn't better statistically when you take turnovers and steals into account. Also, Shaq padded his stats in game 2 and in game 4 with Charles Jones checking him in the 4th quarter. Hakeem also had a higher GmScore (evaluation of single game performances) in game 1, 3 and 4. The one game where Shaq was better statistically, his stats didn't have any significant impact in the game because the game was out of reach when Shaq started dominating. Shaq had 23 points in the second half but Hakeem dominated him in the first half and helped build a huge lead for Houston. Shaq does deserve props for not giving up, though.

Secondly, Hakeem did NOT outplay Shaq. That isn't a fact. His team won, sure. But who won that series? The role players. Shaq shot better. He rebounded more. He assisted and blocked more. But Akeem got him on clutch plays. So in my OPINION, they played each other EVEN. Akeem's teammates stepped up, and Shaq's didn't. If Nick Anderson hits 1 of 4 free throws and the Magic take a 1-0 lead, psychologically, they gain the advantage and possibly the role players play up to their potential, sweeping the Rockets. Then, Shaq's team wins 4-0 AND he has better stats than Akeem. How do we view that argument? Do we say that Akeem dominates Shaq? Even though he put up worse stats in a losing effort? No, my friend. The perception is that Shaq got dominated because Akeem had a bunch of fancy moves and dropped 32 ppg on him. However, he did so on 44%shooting, while Shaq scored only 4 less points on 57% shooting.

So in summary, neither player outplayed the other. Shaq put up better numbers, but he couldn't shut down Akeem. And Akeem couldn't shut down Shaq. Akeem's team stepped up, and Akeem played well down the stretch. Fact. You can remember it any way you like. But that is how it actually happened!

This is where you chime in with your revisionist history. Let me post a few quotes that will show you Hakeem's performance being considered superior and it has nothing to do with team success.

Now, in the first two games of against Orlando's Shaquille O'Neal, [Hakeem] Olajuwon is giving a lesson in durability. Again Friday, he outplayed Shaq

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - Jun 10, 1995

For most of Game 1 on Wednesday, Shaq fought Hakeem to a standoff, but with just 0.3 ... In Friday's Game 2, the 32-year-old center outplayed his larger younger counterpart for most of the game, which the Rockets took, 117-106

TIME - Jun 19, 1995

O'Neal loses ground Magic center is outplayed in Game 2 of NBA Finals

Publish Date: June 10, 1995
Heading of an article from the Milwauke Journal Sentinel right after game 2.

Hakeem Olajuwon continued to outplay Orlando's Shaquille O'Neal with 31 points and 14 rebounds to O'Neal's 28 points, 10 rebounds

USA TODAY - Jun 12, 1995

The Dream outplayed O'Neal from start to finish, completing the job with a three -point bomb that touched off a wild "Twoston" celebration. Olajuwon sought ...

Rocky Mountain News - Jun 18, 1995

Digging into his arsenal of low-post moves, Olajuwon continued to play at a level all his own. As for O'Neal, he had a forceful game, but it was not enough. O'Neal may be the undisputed center of the future, but Olajuwon, as he did against David Robinson of the Spurs, made a statement that this is his time.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/10/sport ... 18&sq=1995

O'Neal (28 points, 10 rebounds) played well in defeat, but Olajuwon (31 points, 14 rebounds, 7 assists) was a little better.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/12/sport ... 15&sq=1995

Olajuwon was better than everyone, joining Michael Jordan as the only back-to-back winner of the finals m.v.p. award. And despite outplaying O'Neal and David Robinson in the playoffs, Olajuwon was humble to the end.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/15/sport ... =5&sq=1995

These quotes basically sum up the entire series. I'll just quote my views on the series.

Hakeem was better by a decent margin and anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging in revisionist history.

Hakeem was superior for the majority of the series and demolished him in the closeout game. I'd say Shaq got the better of him in game 1 but he was relatively subpar in OT due to a crucial turnover thanks to Horry playing possum and not scoring a single field goal. He was also extremely turnover prone which is due to being bad in transition, Hakeem getting steals, drawing offensive fouls and the Rockets swarming defense. Charles Jones checked him a good bit in that series. I'd say about 30% along with Hakeem and co guarding him about 70%. Jones was brought in to do the dirty work (foul him, playing tough, hardnosed defense etc) and that allowed Hakeem to rest a bit and roam on defense (shot blocking threat, playing help defense etc).

Game 2, Hakeem was quite clearly better despite the stats suggesting otherwise. Shaq padded his stats in the second half while Hakeem had a monstrous first half and helped the Rockets establish a huge lead. Shaq's dominance in the second half didn't translate to success for Orlando so Hakeem has an edge here. It was a matter of Hakeem producing at the right time and outplaying him in the key moments.

Game 3, Hakeem was checked by Grant a good bit since Shaq was in foul trouble the first quarter. Shaq got off to a slow start this game and came into synch in the second half. Hakeem again has a slight edge due to elevating the play of his teammates, dishing out more assists, outrebounding and outscoring him along with being less turnover prone. Not to mention the gamewinning assist which I attribute to Ho Grant's lack of awareness. He was looking to triple team but should've stayed glued to Horry.

Game 4, Shaq was dominated from start to finish. He was subpar for the first 3 quarters and came alive in the 4th due to being guarded by Charles Jones and the Rockets letting him do whatever he wanted. Hakeem was meanwhile leading a huge surge by the Rockets in the 3rd quarter as well as nailing a three in Shaq's face to closeout. Shaq was terrible from the line this game and looked out of synch.

That said, Shaq didn't have much trouble scoring on Hakeem due to getting deep position. Shaq forced Hakeem away from the basket a bit but that helped Rockets on the offensive glass and Hakeem obviously scored on him in bunches. Shaq played good post-defense but couldn't guard him while facing up. Both guys were excessively double and triple teamed, though. The series came down to clutch play by the Rockets role players while the Magic (mainly Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott) folded under pressure. You can't say Hakeem outplaying Shaq is the MAIN reason why Houston won.

[bastillon]

great post, pretty much sums up my 50 posts from debates with Jaypo. vastly outplayed in the key moments - that's what made this series lopsided. let's remember games weren't decided by 15-20 pts. often they came to the very end and either Hakeem was tipping a game winner (G1), game-winning assist (G3) or just dominating for the whole stretches when it mattered (1st half of G2) it came at the right time, when game was being decided. 4th game was Olajuwon all out, Shaq knew what happened and understandably admitted to being beaten up/dominated. stats may not have showed it, but Shaq knew exactly what was happening in that series.

[DatWasNashty]

great post, pretty much sums up my 50 posts from debates with Jaypo. vastly outplayed in the key moments - that's what made this series lopsided. let's remember games weren't decided by 15-20 pts. often they came to the very end and either Hakeem was tipping a game winner (G1), game-winning assist (G3) or just dominating for the whole stretches when it mattered (1st half of G2) it came at the right time, when game was being decided. 4th game was Olajuwon all out, Shaq knew what happened and understandably admitted to being beaten up/dominated. stats may not have showed it, but Shaq knew exactly what was happening in that series.

Thanks. The internet is the only place where I've seen people disagree with the notion of Dream outplaying Shaq. Everybody at that time, including Shaq, knew Hakeem was the clearcut winner of the match up but now we have Shaquille supporters trying to revise history as much as possible to make their hero look better.

Shaq on the match up.

"If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it] ... I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt."

"But but but Shaq was better."

[jaypo]

I have another thing to throw out there. Were there or were there not 8 other players on the court? Was it Akeem that hit clutch 3's at the end of game 1? Why is it that nobody believes or takes Shaq seriously when he says most things, but ya'll will cling to that last quote like gospel to prove your point. AND you are taking a bunch of journalists OPINIONS also and making it sound like they were 100% correct. Then, you say that Shaq's stats didn't count because they had no meaning to the game. THEN you say that the games were close. Blah blah blah.

Okay. If the games were close, and Shaq was putting up 28 and 12, I'd say his points counted. Secondly- it wasn't Shaq missing clutch free throws and shooting a low %. And it wasn't Shaq's defense on Akeem that lost them the series. Hell, he held him to 44% from the field. It took Akeem like twice as many shots as Shaq to score 4 more points than Shaq. But why do his points count so much more than Shaq's? Now points only count when the games are being decided which HAPPENED to be when Akeem was scoring them? The key moments were only when Akeem was outplaying Shaq?

I stand by what I said. Shaq put up great numbers and so did Akeem. But Akeem's supporting cast stepped up. Why don't you get tsherkin's take on that series. I've seen thousands of people on these threads, and he is one of very few whose opinions I would take seriously. Because he isn't a 17 yr old dredging up advanced stats or revisionist history to bash Shaq. So if you can convince him that Akeem vastly outplayed Shaq and that it was Shaq's fault they lost the 95 finals, you can convince me as well.

[DatWasNashty]

I have another thing to throw out there. Were there or were there not 8 other players on the court?

Well, no ish.

Why is it that nobody believes or takes Shaq seriously when he says most things, but ya'll will cling to that last quote like gospel to prove your point.

Because Shaq's praise on Hakeem is the ONLY thing he's ever been consistent on besides his inability to shoot free throws. Everything else? He backpedals faster than Melo. From calling Riley the GOAT coach to trashing him and the Miami staff on his way out ... From calling Nash's MVPs tainted to riding his sack when he got traded to Phoenix .. From firing shots at Kobe to praising him when he won the finals ... There's countless other examples. The quote game works when the person is consistent in his beliefs. I won't take Shaq seriously when he calls Nash the GOAT PG but I will assume Shaq is presenting his legit opinion on whatever he says about the Dream.

AND you are taking a bunch of journalists OPINIONS also and making it sound like they were 100% correct.

NY times is a pretty legit source. And I'm assuming the writers were drinking the Hakeem kool-aid just like I am? Why is it that NOBODY was implying Shaq outplaying Dream with his "superior statistical advantage."

Then, you say that Shaq's stats didn't count because they had no meaning to the game.

It's a FACT that Shaq's G2 stats are deceiving because the game was pretty much decided by halftime. Several articles also noted this. But I guess they're incorrect and you're right ....

Okay. If the games were close, and Shaq was putting up 28 and 12, I'd say his points counted.

Not in game 2 where he padded his stats in the second half. Houston had also established a decent lead in the 4th quarter of game 4 when O'Neal came alive thanks to being guarded by Charles Jones.

Secondly- it wasn't Shaq missing clutch free throws and shooting a low %. And it wasn't Shaq's defense on Akeem that lost them the series.

Damn, this dude is dense. I've NEVER said Shaq was the reason Orlando didn't win. Shaq played well but not as well as Hakeem. Period.

Hell, he held him to 44% from the field.

Hyperbole. 48.3 FG%. At least get your facts straight.

It took Akeem like twice as many shots as Shaq to score 4 more points than Shaq.

32.8 ppg to Shaq's 28.0 is more than 4. He didn't take twice as many shots either. Keep exaggerating.

But why do his points count so much more than Shaq's?

Because they came when the games were being decided.

The key moments were only when Akeem was outplaying Shaq?

How hard is it to understand that Hakeem's play helped elevate his teammates and helped establish a big lead? Orlando never came close to tieing the game hence Shaq's stats didn't translate to impact contrary to Hakeem's.

I stand by what I said. Shaq put up great numbers and so did Akeem. But Akeem's supporting cast stepped up. Why don't you get tsherkin's take on that series. I've seen thousands of people on these threads, and he is one of very few whose opinions I would take seriously. Because he isn't a 17 yr old dredging up advanced stats or revisionist history to bash Shaq. So if you can convince him that Akeem vastly outplayed Shaq and that it was Shaq's fault they lost the 95 finals, you can convince me as well.

This dude is dense. Seriously. Dream outplaying Shaq wasn't the primary reason for the sweep. That would be Nick Anderson and Scott folding under pressure like I stated before. The only one engaging in revisionist history here is you.