Retro Player of the Year Project

[tkb]

The second ATL my top 3 draft picks were 1) Pippen, 2) Gilmore, 3) Barry, despite the fact that I rank Barry highest of the 3, because I knew I could get someone of Barry's quality in the 3rd round, and Pippen would be gone in the second. Does that mean Pippen should actually be ranked ahead of Barry? Well, in the real NBA, the level of quality available is never that high so Pippen won't get used as a Sidekick in many circumstances. Seems kinda crazy to boost him too much for a quality that won't always be able to use, y'know?

It's an interesting issue though. I mean, how valuable is ability to fit and versatility on great teams compared to raw talent?

(Btw; IIRC your top 2 draft picks in that 2nd draft was KG and Pippen, though you traded KG for other picks).

[sp6r=underrated]

Since when is this about career value or even how good a player actually is? It's a year by year snapshot -- making it something else would be a different project.

This is what I signed up for -- doing a year-by-year vote on who the five best players were. Not interested at all with anything else -- career value/rankings, any sort of All-Time League or whatever. Just who the five best guys were in any given season. That's all.

I'd also add that ATL selections are significantly influenced by the opinions of realgm. There are players I would absolutely want on my team for ATL simply because posters on realgm overvalue some players.

[Doctor MJ]

The second ATL my top 3 draft picks were 1) Pippen, 2) Gilmore, 3) Barry, despite the fact that I rank Barry highest of the 3, because I knew I could get someone of Barry's quality in the 3rd round, and Pippen would be gone in the second. Does that mean Pippen should actually be ranked ahead of Barry? Well, in the real NBA, the level of quality available is never that high so Pippen won't get used as a Sidekick in many circumstances. Seems kinda crazy to boost him too much for a quality that won't always be able to use, y'know?

It's an interesting issue though. I mean, how valuable is ability to fit and versatility on great teams compared to raw talent?

(Btw; IIRC your top 2 draft picks in that 2nd draft was KG and Pippen, though you traded KG for other picks).

Very interesting issue. I enjoy thinking about it - and changing my mind - but I doubt I'll ever be totally satisfied.

Re: KG. Hehe yup, and of course I traded KG to you (always a dangerous proposition ). To give a little more information to the rest of you: 16 team league, snake-draft, I got the #16 pick, which meant I got the #17 pick too. Decided I'd go with KG/Pip and get a volume scorer the next time around. tkb persuaded me to part with KG, and in return I ended up getting draft picks early enough to Gilmore & Barry along with some other stuff. Between that and another trade, I had a deep team I really loved (Nash, Walton, Buck - good times). To no avail though, beast's Shaq-Frazier team was beastly indeed.

Also, in that ATL, tkb set it up so that we really had to think about how we'd play our players and how efficient they were. We had to specify how many minutes each guy would play, how many shots they'd take, the expected points scored, etc. If you picked a team a volume scorers and said they'd all get their normal shots, you'd get laughed away. Interestingly, I don't remember how I dealt with Barry's inefficiency - had to have come up, maybe part of the reason I didn't do better in the voting.

[Doctor MJ]

Everyone who's asked to be in the project should be in. Check the first post of the thread to confirm I've added you.

30 people total - a very good number I think.

[Silver Bullet]

So I have a question/ potential issue that may pop up ?

Suppose we're voting for 2008 - everybody except myself has voted for their top 5 players. Kobe is leading Lebron by 9 points. I come in and give my rankings as
1. Lebron
....
6. Kobe

handing the MVP to Lebron and clearly using my vote in a way to deliberately influence the outcome. This in a situation, where no other voter has Kobe outside the top 5.
I see this as a potential problem.

Does anyone else think, this could be an issue ?

[ElGee]

So I have a question/ potential issue that may pop up ?

Suppose we're voting for 2008 - everybody except myself has voted for their top 5 players. Kobe is leading Lebron by 9 points. I come in and give my rankings as
1. Lebron
....
6. Kobe

handing the MVP to Lebron and clearly using my vote in a way to deliberately influence the outcome. This in a situation, where no other voter has Kobe outside the top 5.
I see this as a potential problem.

Does anyone else think, this could be an issue ?

Seems no different than such intellectual dishonesty being an issue at any point in the voting...

[Silver Bullet]

So I have a question/ potential issue that may pop up ?

Suppose we're voting for 2008 - everybody except myself has voted for their top 5 players. Kobe is leading Lebron by 9 points. I come in and give my rankings as
1. Lebron
....
6. Kobe

handing the MVP to Lebron and clearly using my vote in a way to deliberately influence the outcome. This in a situation, where no other voter has Kobe outside the top 5.
I see this as a potential problem.

Does anyone else think, this could be an issue ?

Seems no different than such intellectual dishonesty being an issue at any point in the voting...

I'm not sure I follow, I was using 2008 as an example and the last vote as an example. Couldn't care less if it's Kobe and Lebron or Russell and Wilt or if it's the first vote or the last. My point is, if everyone else feels that this could be an issue, we could maybe have a veto system or secret balloting for a Ballot that for example puts in mmm... say Lebron James outside the top 5 in 2009.

[sp6r=underrated]

So I have a question/ potential issue that may pop up ?

Suppose we're voting for 2008 - everybody except myself has voted for their top 5 players. Kobe is leading Lebron by 9 points. I come in and give my rankings as
1. Lebron
....
6. Kobe

handing the MVP to Lebron and clearly using my vote in a way to deliberately influence the outcome. This in a situation, where no other voter has Kobe outside the top 5.
I see this as a potential problem.

Does anyone else think, this could be an issue ?

Seems no different than such intellectual dishonesty being an issue at any point in the voting...

I agree and would add. Most of the voters are pretty mature and public shaming will happen.

[Doctor MJ]

So I have a question/ potential issue that may pop up ?

Suppose we're voting for 2008 - everybody except myself has voted for their top 5 players. Kobe is leading Lebron by 9 points. I come in and give my rankings as
1. Lebron
....
6. Kobe

handing the MVP to Lebron and clearly using my vote in a way to deliberately influence the outcome. This in a situation, where no other voter has Kobe outside the top 5.
I see this as a potential problem.

Does anyone else think, this could be an issue ?

Seems no different than such intellectual dishonesty being an issue at any point in the voting...

SB's correct. It's potentially more of an issue because we're not using secret ballots. Here's what I'll say:

-If we see an odd vote, we'll question the voter on it. In fact I'll say at the beginning of threads to expect to give some explanation of your vote if it's highly unusual. I'll boot people if necessary.

-If we find this a really common problem, we have the option of people PM'ing their votes to me.

-I'm hoping this won't be a huge issue primarily because it's not as important. In actual MVP voting, the difference between winning and 2nd place is huge. One player is forever known as an MVP, the other may not be - not as big a deal if a player wins this award.

[CellarDoor]

MJ, if you guys end up with a slot for judging, shoot me a PM.

[Doctor MJ]

MJ, if you guys end up with a slot for judging, shoot me a PM.

Actually not totally sure what you mean. If you want into the project as a voter, you're in - just confirm. Else, I'd need more details. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss there.

[CellarDoor]

I just noticed your last post about 30 being a good number and assumed you'd capped it. If there's still openings either way, I'd certainly be interested.

[Optimism Prime]

Alright, so let's get this going! I'm pumped!

[Doctor MJ]

I just noticed your last post about 30 being a good number and assumed you'd capped it. If there's still openings either way, I'd certainly be interested.

You're in. 31's a good number too.

[Optimism Prime]

Another question--and this may become apparent as voting progresses: how do people reach their decision? I think this is more important than "home team," personally.

I mean, is one person going to be totally subjective? Is another going to go ".25PER+.75WS+playoffs"? Will one person rely on the actual MVP ballot? Top-five PER? How are we each making our picks?

Will this turn into "statheads" versus "popular opinion", basically.

[Doctor MJ]

Another question--and this may become apparent as voting progresses: how do people reach their decision? I think this is more important than "home team," personally.

I mean, is one person going to be totally subjective? Is another going to go ".25PER+.75WS+playoffs"? Will one person rely on the actual MVP ballot? Top-five PER? How are we each making our picks?

Will this turn into "statheads" versus "popular opinion", basically.

It is an interesting question. Different people will do it in different ways, and we will learn more about how each other think. I'm not particularly worried about the fact that we don't think the same way - more just interested.

[Optimism Prime]

Another question--and this may become apparent as voting progresses: how do people reach their decision? I think this is more important than "home team," personally.

I mean, is one person going to be totally subjective? Is another going to go ".25PER+.75WS+playoffs"? Will one person rely on the actual MVP ballot? Top-five PER? How are we each making our picks?

Will this turn into "statheads" versus "popular opinion", basically.

It is an interesting question. Different people will do it in different ways, and we will learn more about how each other think. I'm not particularly worried about the fact that we don't think the same way - more just interested.

Agreed--I'm not "worried" exactly, just curious about the breakdown in how people are choosing their votes.

[semi-sentient]

Is this thing locked up or can I get in still?

[sp6r=underrated]

Is this thing locked up or can I get in still?

DR MJ has said, I believe, that if you post seriously you can still vote in the project. So I would just vote. You are not (Please Use More Appropriate Word) and make reasonable arguments, so I'm sure they wouldn't mind.

[bastillon]

I think the 1st thread of this project is the most important because it's gonna set a certain standard, the direction which we're going to follow in the other years. if people don't value team accomplishments so far, I expect them to do the same in the other years. if statistics are primary criterion of evaluating players, let's be consistent and use the same statistics in other years.