Re: Retro Player of the Year Project
Posted: Sun Jun 3, 2012 7:08 pm
Great project you have going on here!
Sports is our Business
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743
C-izMe wrote:No highest 10s POY Shares section yet? It's been two years.
semi-sentient wrote:Finally got around to updating the site.C-izMe wrote:No highest 10s POY Shares section yet? It's been two years.
Check out the "Misc" section on http://rpoy.dolem.com. There are a few different views available, including POY share leaders.
Doc: LeBron is actually up to the #9 spot, just ahead of Dr J.
MacGill wrote:
Hey Semi, 82-83 has Moses #1 & #2.
ushvinder88 wrote:It's obvious the criteria is which player got to play on a team that won, rather than who actually was the best. Surprising though that the criteria doesnt have magic above bird in 1985 when magic was clearly better in the playoffs.
ushvinder88 wrote:Larry Bird being chosen as the 1981 player of the year is probably the weakest choice ever. He wasn't even top 10 in PER during the regular season, did absolutely nothing in the nba finals. Moses Malone, Dr. J and Kareem were all better that year.
Kevin Garnett for 2008 is a hoorendously weak choice too. Played sheltered minutes during the regular season, was the 2nd scoring option in order to win a ring. Chris Paul and Lebron were clearly better players this year.
It's obvious the criteria is which player got to play on a team that won, rather than who actually was the best. Surprising though that the criteria doesnt have magic above bird in 1985 when magic was clearly better in the playoffs.
tsherkin wrote:ushvinder88 wrote:Larry Bird being chosen as the 1981 player of the year is probably the weakest choice ever. He wasn't even top 10 in PER during the regular season, did absolutely nothing in the nba finals. Moses Malone, Dr. J and Kareem were all better that year.
Using PER as an argument is always a bad start.Kevin Garnett for 2008 is a hoorendously weak choice too. Played sheltered minutes during the regular season, was the 2nd scoring option in order to win a ring. Chris Paul and Lebron were clearly better players this year.
Yes, using the guy who was the DPOY and 3rd in the MVP vote was such a bad idea... The whole idea of a
veteran team was to distribute the offensive load and then conserve minutes to help the older players (Pierce, KG and Ray were 30, 31 and 32 respectively that season) stay healthy through the RS and into the PS. Don't miss the forest for the trees on that one, especially since KG played 38 mpg in the playoffs.
More particularly, he was the first option in the playoffs. He struggled at times, that's true, but by a rather wide margin, he was the primary volume scoring threat on the team in the playoffs. Pierce's FGA/g don't reflect his overall usage, of course, you have to account for how effectively he was drawing fouls on possessions not recorded in FGA, but still. The team was running the ball into Garnett a LOT, and he was creating with his passing ability and with his scoring threat.
You can certainly make a good argument for Paul and Lebron that year, but you're doing it in a particularly poor fashion.It's obvious the criteria is which player got to play on a team that won, rather than who actually was the best. Surprising though that the criteria doesnt have magic above bird in 1985 when magic was clearly better in the playoffs.
I'll echo Doctor MJ's comment on that one, because the logic is just abominable.
ushvinder88 wrote:Many people consider chris paul's 2008 and 2009 runs arguable the best ever for pg since magic in 1987.
Kevin garnett's 2008 run was probably not even a top 15-20 season ever by a pf.
I remember the 2008 season like it was yesterday, garnett was not the best player in the league, he was clearly worse than the 2003-2005 garnett. Again this is an example where realgm selectively chooses player of the year based on team success. However, that theory is thrown out of the window when it comes to the golden boy larry bird and his epic choke job in 1985.
Our definition for the Player of the Year was the player who had the best season, including both regular season and playoffs.
I dont care if PER isnt the only criteria. Dr. J in 1981 was also a much better defender than bird was. Moses Malone outperformed larry bird in both the regular season and the playoffs. The retro player of the year is nothing more than made up revisionism by internet fans.
ushvinder88 wrote:The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close. Hey since you tried using his playoff run as a reason as to why you rank him above dr. j and moses in 1981. Where is the same argument for magic in 1985, oh I forgot, for that the playoffs is irrelevant because bird was awesome in the regular season?
1985 playoffs:
Bird: Per of 20.9, TS% of 53.6 and win shares per 48 of .155
Magic: Per of 22.3, TS% of 59.9 and win shares per 48 of .21
Thats called getting outplayed in the playoffs. However I am sure you will make an excuse to disregard bird in 1985, while somehow blaming moses and dr.j for thier shortcoming in 1981. Even though the gap between moses/dr. j and bird in 1981 during the regular season was massive.
Moses was the best player on the court in the 81 playoffs, not bird. Moses lead the playoffs in points, rebounding, had a better per, was clearly more central to how his team got to the finals compared to bird. Had much better regular season numbers. Moses or Dr. J were the player of the year in 81, not bird.
ushvinder88 wrote:The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close. Hey since you tried using his playoff run as a reason as to why you rank him above dr. j and moses in 1981. Where is the same argument for magic in 1985, oh I forgot, for that the playoffs is irrelevant because bird was awesome in the regular season?
Moses was the best player on the court in the 81 playoffs, not bird. Moses lead the playoffs in points, rebounding, had a better per, was clearly more central to how his team got to the finals compared to bird.
Had much better regular season numbers. Moses or Dr. J were the player of the year in 81, not bird.
tsherkin wrote:ushvinder88 wrote:The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close. Hey since you tried using his playoff run as a reason as to why you rank him above dr. j and moses in 1981. Where is the same argument for magic in 1985, oh I forgot, for that the playoffs is irrelevant because bird was awesome in the regular season?
I haven't addressed the 85 season, so bringing that up without addressing what I actually said is poor approach.
Meantime, the gap between Bird and Dr. J in the 81 regular season is overblown, but that's less important given that the RPOY project was EXPLICITLY about not just the RS but the playoffs as well.Moses was the best player on the court in the 81 playoffs, not bird. Moses lead the playoffs in points, rebounding, had a better per, was clearly more central to how his team got to the finals compared to bird.
Moses scored more, it's true... but you neglected to mention that he was 4.6 ppg BELOW his playoff average during the Finals. He fell off rather sharply come the Finals and underperformed considerably, which factors in as well. There was a key stretch in game one where the Celtics had 6 offensive rebounds to maintain an extended possession near the end of the game that helped them win, and Moses couldn't do anything about it. Rick Robey defended Malone effectively in Game 3 when Malone injured Parish and knocked him out of the game. Rockets got lucky in Game 4, coming up dry big time in the fourth, but Boston bricked free throws left, right and center to hand the game away. I could go on, but you're ignoring the facts and points I'm making to wank about 1985 instead of addressing the comments about the other seasons you wanted to discuss, which suggests to me that you don't want a debate at all, you just want your point to be true regardless of whether or not it matches reality.Had much better regular season numbers. Moses or Dr. J were the player of the year in 81, not bird.
You continue to prove that you don't know what you're talking about here, and don't understand the nature of the RPOY project.
But for giggles, let's look at 85.
Bird was at .900 shares, Magic was at .800 shares. Bird had 14 first place and 7 second place votes, Magic 7 and 14. Basically everyone knew it came down to Magic and Bird.
RS: 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 6.6 apg, 58.5% TS, 119 ORTG, 10.5 OWS, 15.7 WS and .238 (leading the league in all 3), All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, MVP
PS: 26.0 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 5.8 apg, 53.6% TS, 113 ORTG,
Finals: 23.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 52.7% TS
18/6/9 in game one, the Memorial Day Massacre, on 8/14 shooting and 31 min. Could have padded his stats, didn't.
30/12/3 on 9/21 FG, 11/11 FT in Game 2, scored 12 in the 3rd quarter but couldn't stop Kareem (who scored 30 and rocked like 10 skyhooks made in the game).
20/7/3 on 8/21 FG and 4/5 FT in Game 3.
26/11/5 on 8/16 and 10/12, including 11 pts in the 4th, as well as the assist on the winning bucket by DJ.
20/7/7 on 8/17 and 3/5. Definitely a game that Magic and Kareem dominated. Magic had 26/17 and 3 of the last 7 L.A. buckets (Kareem had the other 4).
28/10/3 on 12/29, 4/5. DJ and Ainge MISSED 25/31 shots. Worthy and Kareem scored 28 and 29 points. Magic had 14/10/14 on 5/15 FG and 4/4 FT, with 5 PF and 4 TOV but had a couple of key drives at the end of the 4th.
Magic
RS: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, 4.0 tpg, 63.7% TS, 123 ORTG
PS: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, 59.9% TS, 122 ORTG, led the playoffs in OWS (2.0) and WS (3.0).
Finals: 18.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 14.0 apg, 3.3 tpg, 56.9% TS
When you look at it that way, it's a reasonably tough argument. Magic had some big games, Bird had some big games. Bird dominated the regular season and played well through the playoffs... Magic had a strong RS and dominated through the playoffs. They met one another in the Finals and dueled it out, with good and bad performances.
It's not nearly as clear-cut as you'd like for the sake of bending reality to your narrative. There's a very good pro-Magic argument, absolutely, but your approach is extremely weak and heavily flawed, riddled with bias and subjectivity.
ushvinder88 wrote:I never said magic should be the consensus choice for player of the year in 1985, what i am implying is that he has a much stronger case for 85 than bird does for 81.
Larry Bird's overall playoff is so mediocre that 1981
He was the best from 84-86, but the player of the year in 81, please.
I do know what i am talking about here, its just that this forum in general has players that are very open to criticism, and certain players are protected. Bird being player of the year in 81 isnt reality, its made up revisionism. Just for giggles, post larry bird's stats in the 1981 finals, he averaged what, like 15 ppg on 41% shooting. Oh yeah that seals the deal for his case against moses and dr. j.
ushvinder88 wrote:The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close.