Is Oscar Robertson disrespected here?

[Laimbeer]

...In his rookie season, Robertson finished with incredible all-around stats of 30.5 points, 10.1 rebounds and 9.7 assists (leading the league), almost averaging a triple-double for the entire season. ..

...In the 1961–62 season (second), Robertson wrote NBA history. In that season, he became the only player in NBA history to average a triple-double for the entire season, averaging 30.8 points, 11.4 assists and 12.5 rebounds per game.[1] He also convincingly broke the assists record by Bob Cousy, who had recorded 715 regular season assists two seasons earlier, by logging 899 of them...

...His rookie scoring average of 30.5 points per game is the third highest of any rookie in NBA history, and Robertson averaged more than 30 points per game in six of his first seven seasons.[1] Only two other players in the NBA have had more 30+ point per game seasons in their career. Robertson was the first player to average more than 10 assists per game, doing so at a time when the criteria for assists were more stringent than today.[3] Furthermore, Robertson is the only guard in NBA history to ever average more than 10 rebounds per game, doing so three times...

...If his first five seasons are strung together, Robertson averaged a triple-double over these 400+ games, averaging an incredible 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds and 10.6 assists.[15] For his career, Robertson had 181 triple-doubles, a record that has never been approached.[16] These numbers are even more astonishing if it is taken into account that the three-point shot did not exist when he played, which was introduced by the NBA in the 1979–80 season and benefits sharpshooting backcourt players. In 1967–68, Robertson also became the first of only two players in NBA history to lead the league in both scoring average and assists per game in the same season (also achieved by Nate Archibald)...

...Furthermore, he is also credited to have invented the head fake and the fadeaway jump shot, a shot which Michael Jordan later became famous for.[...

...He received the "Player of the Century" award by the National Association of Basketball Coaches in 2000 and was ranked third on SLAM Magazine's Top 75 NBA Players in 2003, behind fellow NBA legends Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. Furthermore, in 2006, ESPN named Robertson the second greatest point guard of all time, praising him as the best post-up guard of all time and placing him only behind Los Angeles Lakers legend Magic Johnson.[15]...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Robertson

[writerman]

Yes...he's terribly disrespected. Flavors of the month (Rondo) get more respect here than Oscar...some current player that get ppsters here swooning with admiration aren't fit to be washing Oscar's jocks for him...

[jicama]

Oscar was certainly miles better than Cousy, or anyone else who allegedly played the same position.
When other allstar guards were shooting around (or less than) .400 FG%, Oscar was gunning for .500 .
He was a 22 year old rookie, and by age 30 he was in steep decline.

So he had just 8 really transcendent seasons, after which his greatest value was as a sidekick to Alcindor.
The recurring knock on Oscar is that he didn't do much in postseasons. This is fairly true, and it's somewhat unfair. Nobody got past the Celtics.

Like his contemporary Wilt Chamberlain, it may be that Oscar didn't so much struggle in the playoffs, as that his regular season numbers were somewhat inflated. Not only relative to the pace, but relative to players who didn't go virtually every minute of every game.
Garbage-time minutes, and the easy points and rebounds that go with them, are suddenly scarce in the playoffs.

Unlike his rival Jerry West -- and almost everyone else in the late '60s and early '70s -- the huge expansion of the era did not cause Oscar's numbers to improve; just the opposite. When half of his opponents were expansion rosters, he did not put up any spectacular averages.

After 15 years of continual pounding, in bad shoes, he wore down. Only half of this time was NBA; he'd had a full 'career' when he arrived.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't think he's disrespected. OP mentions Oscar's considered by others the #2 point guard of all-time, and most would agree.

Now, I do think there was a pretty big trend for a while (and possibly still) of over-rating him because of the 30/10/10 triple double stats. Not saying he doesn't deserve a ton of respect for that, but I think at a certain point the triple double really began resonating with people on a crazy level. Him being actually a strong candidate for #1 all-time seems excessive to me.

[JordansBulls]

I think he gets overrated. People rank him above Duncan and Hakeem when those guys actually did something as the best player in the NBA.

[SuigintouEV]

Era.

I strongly believe he's just a 20/6/6 player today or 22/7/7 in the 80s.
Dominating stats in his own joke of an era doesn't make him that great, especially when he still didn't dominate in winning. Even though people always say this and that about how assists were dealt or how the 3pt shot didn't exist, when I watch those ancient games I see a totally different game where those stats simply don't translate. Oscar Robertson was similar to Paul Pierce without the 3pt shot. Even his handles wouldn't translate all that well to the scouting report, long-armed, big, strong defenses of today.
I'm not trying to under-rate him, but I'm going by what i've seen. He was very advanced for his time, but that doesn`t make him very advanced for any time... he was too good for his size back then, but average all star level for his size now. See also: George Mikan.

EDIT: like the poster below me said, now there`s someone who`s underated. West was a hell of a player and would be a 26/7 + 2.7 stl type guy today. Something like a mix of Ray Allen and Jason Kidd.

[Manuel Calavera]

Jerry West is more disrespected

[Blackfyre]

I think he gets overrated. People rank him above Duncan and Hakeem when those guys actually did something as the best player in the NBA.

I've seen sport magazines rank him higher than Magic, Bird, KAJ etc. He definitely gets overrated when people think he was TOP 5 all time. To me he is #11-13 all-time.

[Doctor MJ]

Jerry West is more disrespected

Agree, although I'd feel weird about saying that phrase. Oscar is rated higher than West by most, and I prefer West. What skews opinion is that Oscar's advantage over West comes from years where pace was utterly ridiculous. That was their early years, when Oscar was inherited a team he could basically do exactly what he'd done in college with, but West had to play as Baylor's wingman. Oscar absolutely should get more credit for those early years than West, but for most of their careers, West was putting up comparable huge numbers, with a significantly better reputation with regards to defense, clutchness, and contribution to team chemistry.

[Winsome Gerbil]

The simple answer is yes. There is another thread around here where people, obviously people with no feel for the history of the game, are arguing whether Oscar or JKidd should go on the "Mt. Rushmore of PGs." I guarantee you there is not one single NBA coach, executive, or scout who would ask that same question. When somebody averages 30-10-10 for an entire season its like Wilt's season averaging 50ppg. An era thing, and never going to happen again, but also an asbolute all time great legend thing. He's a Top 10 player all time, regardless of position.

[_BBIB_]

Yes and it's not close. He's punished for not winning when he played on the freaking Royals and was going up in the playoffs either against Russell's Celtics or Wilt's Sixers.

No one who has any sanity or knowledge of the game would state that his team was anything other than heavy heavy underdogs and clearly and thoroughly outmatched talent wise in all of those series.

Only ONE series was his team eliminated outside of playing those juggernauts. And it was certainly no fault of him



Career on Cincinnati Royals (10 Seasons)

1960—No postseason (30.5/10.1/9.7 on 47% shooting in regular season)
1961—Lost vs. Pistons (averaged 28.8/11/11 on 52% in postseason)
1962—Lost vs. Celtics (averaged 31.8/13/9 on 47% in postseason)
1963—Lost vs. Celtics (averaged 29.3/8.9/8.4 on 45% in postseason)
1964—Lost vs. 76ers (averaged 28/4.8/12 on 43% in postseason)
1965—Lost vs. Celtics (averaged 31.8/7.6/7.8 on 41% in postseason)
1966—Lost vs. 76ers (averaged 24.8/4.0/11.3 on 52% in postseason)
1967—No postseason (averaged 29.2/6/9.7 on 50% in regular season)
1968—No postseason (averaged 24.7/6.4/9.8 on 49% shooting in regular season)
1969—No postseason (averaged 25.3/6.1/8.1 on 51% shooting in regular season)

[kasino]

I don't think he is disrespected. Oscar is usually listed right out of the top 10 and even considered top 10 by some posters. He was an exceptional talent but that brings expectations that weren't meet. It comes from no fault of his own, some of his best seasons the Royals weren't playoff teams, but if you get the glory of winning you have to take on the burden of losing.

[tsherkin]

The big thing with Oscar, like with Wilt, is that he played HUGE minutes. This is actually an era-related issue. Today, even if you forget pace and style and whatever and just directly translate Oscar to this time and assume he'd be the same player, he'd be a 22/6/8 player, or maybe 24/7/9 if he played around 39 mpg.

Now, projecting a player's ability to succeed forward in time is only so valuable and ignores that Oscar was the guard version of Wilt; absurdly efficient compared to his peers and a statistical marvel. He's also the only player not named Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell to win an MVP from 60-61 through 67-68 (in 68-69, Wes Unseld finally won it as a rookie, even if it was a BS MVP).

He had a decade of dominant performances (even when he "declined" in his final years in Cinci, he was still an awesome player). He missed the playoffs 4 times and averaged 42 wins per season. He never won a division title, but he did play in the same division as the Celtics and the Sixers, so there's something to be said about how badly things were stacked against him.

Two of the most titanic forces in basketball were in the same division as him, and some all-time great teams as well. To rank him out of the top 10 all-time makes sense, because that's about more than just stats and individual achievements, it's about team success. Oscar isn't any different than, say, Jerry West in the sense that they both have one title, excellent stats and great individual careers but just the one title. West was consistently making the Finals, but he had more help and wasn't playing against Wilt and Russell a total of 16 times a season, which had to be rough. Same sort of thing with Dr. J, actually, unless you're disposed towards including his ABA career.

This hurts Oscar in terms of an all-time ranking because he flat-out doesn't have the team success to compete with the guys in the top-10, but in terms of actual talent, and even impact on the game, he's among the most important players to ever lace up and get on the hardwood.

In terms of talent, though, Oscar was definitely among the best players ever and his game would translate pretty well into the modern game. He didn't have the range to be a dominant 3pt shooter, though he'd assuredly shoot at least 30-33% from downtown. He had a pretty strong post game, some go-to moves that are timelessly effective, a lot of power and his athleticism is underrated because he didn't play above the rim. Good mid-range shooter, though, good post-up scorer, could drive to either side and he had a bunch of moves to go to for a bucket.

He'd probably be a 25/6/7 player today, IMO. Very, very good, just never had the ability to really compete with the Celtics or the Sixers.

[Warspite]

Are we discussing Oscars ability or his resume??

Hes not underrated when he compare his career but maybe his talent. Oscar is the 2nd best PG of alltime now how high do you value PGs? Is the 2nd best PG worth more than the 6th best C?

Anyone that has Oscar in the top 15 IMHO being pretty fair to the guy. I personaly think hes higher but then again I have seen the guy play while 90% of posters havent.

Seriously is there a better kudo than being ranked just behind or ahead of Kobe by a 15-20 yr old who never saw you play and couldnt name the teams you played for?

[ronnymac2]

He's overrated everywhere else. He's underrated on RealGM.

I think people underrate him here because they don't understand what he was. If somebody sees that Oscar didn't have a lot of playoff success, and then reads that he was a bit ball-dominant and played a lot of minutes and was in a fast-paced era, and then reads that he was a low-post player as a point guard.....people are going to think his stats are artificial, that he's not a winner, and that his style of play isn't conducive to today's style of play with the emphasis on 3-point shooting and slashing.

In all honesty, that's what I thought he was like. He's not though. He's actually very good without the ball. He's a Tyreke Evans-like finisher inside. His jumper is money out to 20 feet (with a high release point, so it's unblockable, especially since he usually got a defender on his hip or bumped him with a shoulder so the defender couldn't contest). He looks like Jason Kidd on the fast-break with a bit less creativity (not a slight). And he's actually a really good slasher. Very strong with excellent ball-handling using either hand.

He doesn't post up on the low block. He just uses his body to protect the ball a lot.

I think he'd actually be a better utilized player today. I'd still prefer Dr. J, Jerry West, and Kobe over him, but Oscar was a beast. If Kobe Bryant is watching tape of you to learn moves, you're **** good.

[tsherkin]

Are we discussing Oscars ability or his resume??

Always an important distinction. He's not at all disrespected in all-time rankings, IMO, he didn't have a top-10 career, though not that far from it.

Hes not underrated when he compare his career but maybe his talent. Oscar is the 2nd best PG of alltime now how high do you value PGs? Is the 2nd best PG worth more than the 6th best C?

Anyone that has Oscar in the top 15 IMHO being pretty fair to the guy. I personaly think hes higher but then again I have seen the guy play while 90% of posters havent.

I think he's probably somewhere between 11-13, personally.

Seriously is there a better kudo than being ranked just behind or ahead of Kobe by a 15-20 yr old who never saw you play and couldnt name the teams you played for?

Heh.

[Doctor MJ]

Seriously is there a better kudo than being ranked just behind or ahead of Kobe by a 15-20 yr old who never saw you play and couldnt name the teams you played for?

Wow, that's one of the best lines I've seen RealGM. Sig worthy - in a good way.