Durant w/ Pippen's Defense vs Lebron w/ McHale's Post Game

[tsherkin]

Payton wasn't overrated at all... see what he did to MJ in the 96 Finals and try again... That was basically MJ's worst Finals series, and it was mostly because Payton gave him the time of his life trying to score. Now, MJ being MJ, still had a great series, but it was far worse than pretty much all of his other Finals performances.

Durant with Pippen's defense, even limited as it would be in the modern era, would be a VERY good player, there's no questioning that.

But at 6'10, he wouldn't be as quick as Pippen, which would change his value as a rotational defender. He wouldn't be the same in terms of picking the passing lanes and he certainly wouldn't be the same kind of man defender.

Yes, Durant is fast, not just for his size, but in general. But Pippen was quicker. It's usually hyperbole when people say "he moved like a guy 6 inches shorter than him," it's just a fancy way of saying he moved really well for his size. People said Ewing moved like he was 6 inches shorter, but that's horsecrap and we all know it, he was just really mobile for a 7-footer over 250 pounds. Even Olajuwon didn't "move like he was 6" shorter." (this phrase isn't from someone in this thread, btw, it's a common refrain that I'm addressing)

Meantime, Durant is some 3 or 4 inches taller than Pippen. He's quick, he's really quick for his size, but he would not be the same type of defender. He would not be the same kind of lockdown individual defender because it's not possible to do that consistently with the new rules. Artest doesn't do it, Bowen didn't do it... They were consistently able to frustrate their checks, true, and you can still do that well, but people are overplaying the value of length and trying to discuss the skills that Pippen had on defense as if they'd miraculously transfer without eroding across eras and into a taller player's body.

The difference between Durant now and what he would be with what would transfer of Pippen's defense isn't that big. He'd be a guy who can do what he does now and who could, at times, play really good man defense and consistently good help defense. At SF, he isn't anchoring any all-time defenses the way Garnett did, especially since he wouldn't rebound like KG did, that's just massive hyperbole. Meantime, I'm expected to take seriously an argument by a person who won't even acknowledge that Dwight Howard is an elite defender. How are we SUPPOSED to respond to that? His argument about Dwight is as ignorant as it gets, there's literally nothing to suggest that Dwight is anything but a fantastic, elite defender, and yet I'm supposed to respect his defensive opinion about a 6'10 SF who wouldn't be able to hand-check and isn't going to be a significant shot-blocker?

The BEST perimeter defenders in the NBA today are not able to defend the way they used to, they get called for too many fouls if they try, and as a result, they must necessarily rely upon team defense. Ray Allen wasn't responsible for limiting Kobe in the 2008 Finals, the TEAM was. The threat of Garnett's rotations, the TRIPLE-TEAMS when he touched the ball in the post... those were responsible. Ray played well, but mostly by shading, getting away with some hand-checking and switching off of Kobe routinely so that the team could keep a FRESH defender on him at all times, those were the big things. Again, the guy doesn't even know what he's talking about as far as how Boston defended Kobe and he's trying to argue that Durant would be this super-mega player, without even discussing how volume offense takes away from consistent defense and that precious few players have managed to do that. Pippen was not one of them, he was never a top-end volume scorer even without Jordan. He was a great player, but Durant would drift on man defense until he locked in just like MJ did, otherwise floating and picking passing lanes, etc, etc.

[lorak]

Payton wasn't overrated at all... see what he did to MJ in the 96 Finals and try again...

LOL, try again Tsherkin, because most of the time Jordan wasn't guarded by Payton. Schrempf (yes!) and Hawkins were guarding him.

And Payton is overrated because he got DPOTY which he didn't deserved. Shawn Kemp was the best defender on that team.

Ray Allen wasn't responsible for limiting Kobe in the 2008 Finals, the TEAM was.

The same could be said about 1996 and SONICS limiting Jordan...

[tsherkin]

LOL, try again tsherkin, because most of the time Jordan wasn't guarded by Payton. Schrempf (yes!) and Hawkins were guarding him.

At the beginning of the series, yes. In Games 4-6 though, it was definitely Payton.

And Payton is overrated because he got DPOTY which he didn't deserved. Shawn Kemp was the best defender on that team.

Shawn Kemp was not the best defender on the team. Whether or not Payton deserved a DPOY is another story, I agree, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was still a phenomenal perimeter defender. Kemp wasn't an elite man OR help defender. He had moments in both respects, but he was certainly not the best defender on the tema.

The same could be said about 1996 and SONICS limiting Jordan...

No, that had a lot more to do with Gary Payton getting into Jordan's shorts; the Sonics didn't have anything like the rotational defense that the Celtics displayed in 2008.

[mattg]

tsherkin is spot on with his defensive assessments.


Also, people seem to not think of defensive rebounding as one of the most important aspects of defense. Infinitely more important than being able to stay in front of your man on the perimeter. The NBA is all about team defense and redirecting offensive players to your help. The rules make it as such. Offensive players have an inherent advantage because defense is reactionary as well. This is why no matter how good a perimeter defender is, he will NEVER come close to the impact of a good defensive big. DurPippen for example, doesn't come close to the defensive impact of an Andrew Bogut even. Anyone with a basic understanding of the game will be able to tell you that.

[lorak]

LOL, try again tsherkin, because most of the time Jordan wasn't guarded by Payton. Schrempf (yes!) and Hawkins were guarding him.

At the beginning of the series, yes. In Games 4-6 though, it was definitely Payton.

Well, so you are saying that every Jordan’s missed FG or turnover in games 4-6 was caused by Payton’s defense?

And Payton is overrated because he got DPOTY which he didn't deserved. Shawn Kemp was the best defender on that team.

Shawn Kemp was not the best defender on the team. Whether or not Payton deserved a DPOY is another story, I agree, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was still a phenomenal perimeter defender. Kemp wasn't an elite man OR help defender. He had moments in both respects, but he was certainly not the best defender on the tema.

1. I agree that Payton was one of the best perimeter defenders at the time, but he wasn’t the best (Pippen for sure and probably Jordan too were better) and of course there were several big defenders who were better than him. So he deserved All Defensive 1st Team, but no way should he be DPOTY. That’s one of the reasons I think he’s overrated.

2. “Kemp was more important to Sonics defense…” Well, ok, maybe it’s not true, it was overstatement and I should say: they were more or less equally important to Sonics defense. For example look at this:

Code: Select all


Sonics DRtg relatively to league average
1992   0,6
1993   -3,1
1994   -4,8
1995   -2
1996   -5,5
1997   -4
1998   -1,4


1993 is the year when Kemp finally became full time starter and we could see huge improvement in Sonics defense: from below average to much above average.
1997 was the last Kemp’s season in Seattle and next year we see big drop off in Sonics defense. And 1998 was the last season when Sonics with Payton were above average defensive team. For the next five years, when Payton was named to All D Teams and his reputation was still big he never led Sonics to above average result on defense. Sure, maybe he had just bad luck and his partners were so bad on defense – it’s something that should be check.

On the other hand Kemp joined already very good Cavs team, but he improved them on defensive end despite the fact that three rookies were playing in Cavaliers starting five (Ilgauskas, Knight and Henderson). He led these rookies to great -5.9 DRtg!

[bastillon]

wow Tsherkin just said Pippen would be Thabo freakin Sefolosha as a man defender. wow.

Thabo was shorter, slower, much weaker, much less athletic, doesn't have 1/10th of Pippens bball IQ, can defend pretty much 2 positions (while Pippen defended Ewing and Stockton on different occasions, not to mention Barkley, Magic, Bird etc) and doesn't have half the skills Pippen had as a man defender either... that's probably the worst statement is tsherkin's career on this board.

you're also severely underrating Pippen as a defensive anchor...

Pippen freakin anchored 29 DWS team in 94 (#1 or #2 def in a normal year). that's with Horace Grant, right. and also with Longley and Paxson/Kerr IIRC. not to mention huge periods when Kukoc was playing PF. that supporting cast wasn't exactly spectacular in terms of team D outside of Pippen. granted that Jax helped them a lot, I still can't be more impressed with Pippen's defense that year.

not to mention that Grant wasn't even there in 95 and Bulls were even better defensively, with 30.2 DWS (but Pippen played more games so that's understandable). Jordan played 17 games but Bulls didn't get any better defensively at the end of the season (+0.4 DRtg so slight regress)

so yeah, that's 2 years in a row when Pippen was anchoring a 30 DWS defense which happens not really that often. Hakeem anchored such defense two or three times. and who were these defensive titans on those Bulls ? Kerr ? PF Kukoc ? how about Perdue ? it's pretty clear where credit is due.

[Jordan23Forever]

Using team DWS is almost as bad as using individual DRtg to determine a player's defensive effiicacy. That said, Pippen would still be better than Sefalosha as a man defender even without handchecking.

[tsherkin]

So he deserved All Defensive 1st Team, but no way should he be DPOTY. That’s one of the reasons I think he’s overrated.

This is largely a foolish approach; Dikembe Mutombo once won a DPOY from the All-Defensive 2nd Team, which was ridiculous, but it doesn't mean he was an overrated defender.

2. “Kemp was more important to Sonics defense…” Well, ok, maybe it’s not true, it was overstatement and I should say: they were more or less equally important to Sonics defense. For example look at this:

1993 is the year when Kemp finally became full time starter and we could see huge improvement in Sonics defense: from below average to much above average.[/quote]

93 is ALSO the first year George Karl coached the team and Gary Payton's best defensive season to that point in his career (his third season). You can't look at that situation and separate them out and say that it was clearly Kemp's impact.

1997 was the last Kemp’s season in Seattle and next year we see big drop off in Sonics defense.

Which is ironic, because they were a 61-win team that year, better without Kemp. The defensive did decline a bit, but let's try not to ignore that they lost a couple of their vets and that they were starting a 35 year-old Detlef Schrempf and a 31 year-old Hersey Hawkins. And 37 year-old Dale Ellis played 24.5 mpg. And that Kemp was replaced with Vin Baker instead of a more reasonable intermediary.


Again, it's kind of hard to really look at that as directly Kemp's doing.

The Cavs were the best D in the regular season in 98, surely, and obviously Kemp helped that, but they were already a top 5 defense without him the year before and coached by a known defensive guru in Mike Fratello. Much of that 3-point leap in defensive efficacy is the result of having a more consistent starting lineup and being better than their opponents on the defensive glass (whereas in 97 they were outrebounded in that respect).

wow Tsherkin just said Pippen would be Thabo freakin Sefolosha as a man defender. wow.

Thabo was shorter, slower, much weaker, much less athletic, doesn't have 1/10th of Pippens bball IQ, can defend pretty much 2 positions (while Pippen defended Ewing and Stockton on different occasions, not to mention Barkley, Magic, Bird etc) and doesn't have half the skills Pippen had as a man defender either... that's probably the worst statement is tsherkin's career on this board.

You've missed the point; I didn't mean as a direct comparison to Thabo's entire defensive ability, I meant as a man defender on the perimeter; Sefolosha is one of the premier defenders in the league today. It doesn't much matter that Pippen was faster, it'd make a small difference in Pippen's favor, I agree. And his help defense wouldn't be any worse, I agree.

Pippen freakin anchored 29 DWS team in 94

Irrelevant; 94 was a different era, with different defensive rules. And yep, he had an All-Defensive PF next to him.

Pippen was a really good defender, but you're approaching this as if I said he'd be a worse overall defender, when what I'm saying is that he'd be a considerably less effective iso defender. Which is true. Understand what I said, not what you want to hear.

Again, Scottie himself talks about how much more difficult it would be to guard the speed of the great scorers now as a result of not being able to slow them down with an arm bar or a hand on the body. It makes a significant difference.

And because Scottie played against the best perimeter scorer a lot of the time, there would be many nights when (in today's league) he'd be so busy trying to slow that guy down that he wouldn't really have the time (or maybe the energy) to devote to playing the same level of help defense he did in the late 80s and 90s. I mean, in the 90s, there were exactly 5 players 6'9 or shorter who scored 27+ ppg, and Scottie played with one of them. Beyond that, Bernard King did it once, Charles Barkley did it once, Dominique Wilkins did it twice and Karl Malone did it give times.

Since 2005, Wade's done it three times, Lebron's done it 6 times, Iverson did it twice, Kobe's done it four times, Arenas did it twice and Melo's done it twice. And since B-R lists KD at 6'9, he's done it as well. A considerably larger portion of the league is scoring at that rate than they did in Scottie's time. Some of it is pace-related, some of it is focus-related (where as guys like Dream, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq today, for example), but a lot of it is rules-related. Scottie would have a lot more on his plate than he did then, I don't really think he would be anchoring a dominant defensive team as a 3, with or without an All-Defensive PF.

[lorak]

Which is ironic, because they were a 61-win team that year, better without Kemp.

No, they were worse - SRS.

The defensive did decline a bit,

A bit? 2.6 in defensive efficiency isn't a bit. It's difference like for example between last season Magic defense and Jazz defense.



And you didn't answered to question about Payton and MJ in games 4-6. Was Payton responsible for every Jordan's miss and turnover?

[tsherkin]

No, they were worse - SRS.

SRS isn't the be-all and end-all. Their DRTG increased by 0.9 and their ORTG increased by 0.4. Not a matching progression, but they also won 4 more games and their SRS changed by only .58, they were still a dominant team. That's a fluctuation easily explicable by year-to-year variance.

And you didn't answered to question about Payton and MJ in games 4-6. Was Payton responsible for every Jordan's miss and turnover?

I didn't answer because it's a stupid question and I know what you're going to try and do with the answer, even though it's similarly ridiculous.

[bastillon]

Using team DWS is almost as bad as using individual DRtg to determine a player's defensive effiicacy. That said, Pippen would still be better than Sefalosha as a man defender even without handchecking.

team DWS correlates perfectly with team DRtg relative to lg average. try again.

[bastillon]

Irrelevant; 94 was a different era, with different defensive rules. And yep, he had an All-Defensive PF next to him.

he also anchored a better defensive team in 95 WITHOUT all-defensive PF (unless of course you consider Tony Kukoc to be that good), but you didn't respond to that point. if he anchored 30 DWS defenses in the mid 90s, I don't see why he wouldn't do it today.

and I understand your point about the rules, I just don't think it's true. I think he'd limit every guy you listed and still anchor a great defense in the meantime. anchoring the defense and man defense doesn't have a lot in common. you're not anchoring the defense by being a great man defender. to have anchor-type impact on the game you have to really influence 4 other guys.

[joe.linnen]

Durant with Pippen's defense

[NO-KG-AI]

So is it Durant's tools and pippen's fundamentals/mindset, or is it a combo of the best of Durant's tools and Scottie's + the best of scottie's mental aspects?

If you are just putting Pippen's defensive skills into Durant, he's longer, but gives up a lot of strength and athleticism, even though Pippen isn't LeBron athletically, his lateral quicks, pure speed, and vertical is solidly above Kevin's.

[MSGBallerz]

LeBron is already one of the best offensive players in the game. He's efficient as hell with the ball, giving him a new way to score will result in a marginal increase in his overall impact offensively. He can only score in so many ways at a time. So Durant will be given the bigger improvement with Pippen's defense.

Even so, its close... I think I'll still take LeBron because he gets even better offensively(though not by as much as the homers here are thinking), but he's already a lot better playmaker and he's a solid defender especially off the ball.