Do you think Carmelo is better than Pippen

jaypo · Post #41 » by **jaypo** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 5:41 pm

writerman wrote:I've always thought Pippen was an overrated second banana who rode someone else's coattails to fame and glory. I still do. But as I've often said, there are players who are more than their stats, players pretty accurately defined by their stats, and those who are less than their stats. Melo belongs to the last category, and IMO is the biggest overrated empty jersey in the league.

Pippen was voted top 50 in the 90's before he won his other 3 titles. And the telling thing is that after the Bulls lost the GOAT, he lead that team to 55 wins. Conversely, when Kobe ran Shaq out, how did the Lakers do that season with Kobe leading them? Pippen was able to lead a team because he had the skills and was a great team player. Carmelo is a better scorer. But ther are more things to do than score the basketball. Carmelo can't guard me! Pippen could guard just about anybody he played against.

kasino · Post #42 » by **kasino** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 8:12 pm

top 50 players is a joke
how many players have been replaced when we know the likes of KG/Kidd/AI/Durant are all on Barkley's level and know Barkley is better than alot of the list.

anywho Melo turned around a 17-65 team(same record as Lebron Cavs) to a playoff team and never missed the playoffs

Great point Kobe is left on the Lakers no Shaq/Phil and miss the playoffs is Pippen better? Nope, so why bring it up? IDK

Melo>Pippen IMO

jaypo · Post #43 » by **jaypo** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 8:33 pm

kasino wrote:top 50 players is a joke
how many players have been replaced when we know the likes of KG/Kidd/AI/Durant are all on Barkley's level and know Barkley is better than alot of the list.

anywho Melo turned around a 17-65 team(same record as Lebron Cavs) to a playoff team and never missed the playoffs

Great point Kobe is left on the Lakers no Shaq/Phil and miss the playoffs is Pippen better? Nope, so why bring it up? IDK

Melo>Pippen IMO

Not sure what you're trying to say there, but the Bulls lost Michael friggin Jordan. They lost him. And the next year, they still had 55 wins with Pippen running the show. The Lakers lost Shaq but got Odom and Butler in a trade. And they dropped 20 games and missed the playoffs. That's what I was getting at.

Bruh Man · Post #44 » by **Bruh Man** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 8:39 pm

jaypo wrote:
kasino wrote:top 50 players is a joke
how many players have been replaced when we know the likes of KG/Kidd/AI/Durant are all on Barkley's level and know Barkley is better than alot of the list.

anywho Melo turned around a 17-65 team(same record as Lebron Cavs) to a playoff team and never missed the playoffs

Great point Kobe is left on the Lakers no Shaq/Phil and miss the playoffs is Pippen better? Nope, so why bring it up? IDK

Melo>Pippen IMO

Not sure what you're trying to say there, but the Bulls lost Michael friggin Jordan. They lost him. And the next year, they still had 55 wins with Pippen running the show. The Lakers lost Shaq but got Odom and Butler in a trade. And they dropped 20 games and missed the playoffs. That's what I was getting at.

Lakers missed the playoffs because of injuries, and obviously Shaq > Odom and Butler.

Post #45 » by **tsherkin** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 8:51 pm

jaypo wrote:Not sure what you're trying to say there, but the Bulls lost Michael friggin Jordan. They lost him. And the next year, they still had 55 wins with Pippen running the show. The Lakers lost Shaq but got Odom and Butler in a trade. And they dropped 20 games and missed the playoffs. That's what I was getting at.

It should be pointed out that Ho Grant was an All-Star and All-Defensive that year (and had the best rebounding season of his entire career), it wasn't just Pippen upping his game. BJ Armstrong made his only All-Star appearance that season as well.

Again, it isn't quite the same thing, certainly not the same as comparing to what happened with the Lakers.

There is no comparison between the Chicago team in 93 and 94 and the Lakers in 04 and 05.

Kobe lost Malone, Payton and Shaq, that's 60% of the team's starting lineup from the previous season. It'd be ridiculous to compare that to what happened to Chicago. Instead of losing talent, two of the guys made the only All-Star teams they'd make in their entire careers, having their best seasons when Jordan left as they peaked.

Pippen did a fine job, no question (apart from blowing at the line), but between the stellar play of Grant and Armstrong and the rookie addition of Toni Kukoc (he was pretty damned good that year) as well as 82 games of Steve Kerr for the first time, they sure as hell weren't hurting for talent.

kasino · Post #46 » by **kasino** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 8:55 pm

jaypo wrote:
kasino wrote:top 50 players is a joke
how many players have been replaced when we know the likes of KG/Kidd/AI/Durant are all on Barkley's level and know Barkley is better than alot of the list.

anywho Melo turned around a 17-65 team(same record as Lebron Cavs) to a playoff team and never missed the playoffs

Great point Kobe is left on the Lakers no Shaq/Phil and miss the playoffs is Pippen better? Nope, so why bring it up? IDK

Melo>Pippen IMO

Not sure what you're trying to say there, but the Bulls lost Michael friggin Jordan. They lost him. And the next year, they still had 55 wins with Pippen running the show. The Lakers lost Shaq but got Odom and Butler in a trade. And they dropped 20 games and missed the playoffs. That's what I was getting at.

I know
Now win without Mike thats a different story
Beat on the Cavs and have a real series against the Knicks nice
But this is great defensive team coached by Phil Jackson and great chemistry what the outcome was supposed to be? What was the team inline to take their mantle?

Kobe and Lamar missed alot of games(around the 20 or so) that season and played with the likes of "whats his names" and "still in leaguers?" Just saying scrubs.
Atkins
Bryant
Butler
Odom
Mihm
No Bench
but honestly ur right they still should have made the playoffs

Melo makes the playoffs every year as the teams focus.

jaypo · Post #47 » by **jaypo** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 9:00 pm

He sure does. But he also gets bounced from the playoffs every year. Melo is a great scorer. Far better than Pippen. But as I said before, he doesn't hold a candle to Pippen in other aspects of the game. Like defense!

joelafan · Post #48 » by **joelafan** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 9:11 pm

jaypo wrote:He sure does. But he also gets bounced from the playoffs every year. Melo is a great scorer. Far better than Pippen. But as I said before, he doesn't hold a candle to Pippen in other aspects of the game. Like defense!

the whole team doesnt play defense. It would be insane to think melo could be the only defensive contriubtor.

Sinant · Post #49 » by **Sinant** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 9:22 pm

I'll take Pippen's playmaking and defense over Melo's scoring.

kasino · Post #50 » by **kasino** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 9:24 pm

jaypo wrote:He sure does. But he also gets bounced from the playoffs every year. Melo is a great scorer. Far better than Pippen. But as I said before, he doesn't hold a candle to Pippen in other aspects of the game. Like defense!

bounced out every year?
You can't turn making the playoffs bad.
I know Pippen is the better defender and skillset is perfect for a 2nd option(if not for 3peat Kobe best 2nd option ever IMO). But Melo's scoring can carry ur team further than Pippens man defense.

jaypo · Post #51 » by **jaypo** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 9:50 pm

kasino wrote:
jaypo wrote:He sure does. But he also gets bounced from the playoffs every year. Melo is a great scorer. Far better than Pippen. But as I said before, he doesn't hold a candle to Pippen in other aspects of the game. Like defense!

bounced out every year?
You can't turn making the playoffs bad.
I know Pippen is the better defender and skillset is perfect for a 2nd option(if not for 3peat Kobe best 2nd option ever IMO). But Melo's scoring can carry ur team further than Pippens man defense.

Actually< ChucktheD turned "making the playoffs bad" yesterday. He said that turning a team from a 21 win team to a finals contender in 3 years wasn't impressive and that the players around the star (who was putting up great numbers) were the ones to credit for the success.

Anyhow, it wasn't just Pipp's man defense. It was his playmaking. His BBIQ. His decision making. And the fact that, as per one expert, his length and activity on the defensive end gave the Bulls about 3 extra possessions per game. Translate that into 3 more shots for Jordan at about 50%. Over a 7 game series, that's about 21 points he gives you that isn't reflected in the box score.

And Pip DID lead a team. He lead the team after Jordan left. And how did he do? 55 wins. They year immediately following the loss of the GOAT from the team!

kasino · Post #52 » by **kasino** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 10:01 pm

Again a skillset perfect for a 2nd option
IDK what happened with Chuck guess it had to do wit Shaq
IDK but that seems bad for Jordan but his is great defensive team coached by Phil Jackson and great chemistry what the outcome was supposed to be? What was the team inline to take their mantle?

jaypo · Post #53 » by **jaypo** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 10:33 pm

kasino wrote:Again a skillset perfect for a 2nd option
IDK what happened with Chuck guess it had to do wit Shaq
IDK but that seems bad for Jordan but his is great defensive team coached by Phil Jackson and great chemistry what the outcome was supposed to be? What was the team inline to take their mantle?

He had the perfect skillset for a 2nd option. So does Kobe. So does that make him a 2nd option? I guess that's why his 1st 3 rings don't count, right?

Post #54 » by **tsherkin** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 10:50 pm

Actually, Kobe's skill set looks pretty much like Jordan's, and he is the prototypical modern first option scoring guard. Kobe has better range, less physical talent and doesn't have the same approach that Jordan had, so he isn't quite as good, but he's basically the same kind of player.

jaypo · Post #55 » by **jaypo** » Wed Feb 2, 2011 10:57 pm

tsherkin wrote:Actually, Kobe's skill set looks pretty much like Jordan's, and he is the prototypical modern first option scoring guard. Kobe has better range, less physical talent and doesn't have the same approach that Jordan had, so he isn't quite as good, but he's basically the same kind of player.

I know, tsherkin. I was just being a smartass to kasino! I know that's hard to believe!

therealbig3 · Post #56 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 6:41 am

Well, the 04 Nuggets weren't the same 17 win team they were the year before, when Melo joined. Besides Melo, they added Miller, Boykins, and Nene...and Camby had a much better season that year. So to say Melo came to a 17 win team and turned them into a playoff team is kind of not true. There were a few other key players involved in that turnaround.

J~Rush · Post #57 » by **J~Rush** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 8:49 am

Melo is closer to Granger than Pippen

Post #58 » by **kingkirk** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 9:23 am

menofvalor wrote:Easily, better numbers across the board.

um...LOL?

kasino · Post #59 » by **kasino** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 3:29 pm

jaypo wrote:
kasino wrote:Again a skillset perfect for a 2nd option
IDK what happened with Chuck guess it had to do wit Shaq
IDK but that seems bad for Jordan but his is great defensive team coached by Phil Jackson and great chemistry what the outcome was supposed to be? What was the team inline to take their mantle?

He had the perfect skillset for a 2nd option. So does Kobe. So does that make him a 2nd option? I guess that's why his 1st 3 rings don't count, right?

uh Kobe goes for 30 and still a great defender and above average rebounder/playmaker
1st option

Pippen not so much but he is really really good.

kasino · Post #60 » by **kasino** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 3:45 pm

jaypo wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Actually, Kobe's skill set looks pretty much like Jordan's, and he is the prototypical modern first option scoring guard. Kobe has better range, less physical talent and doesn't have the same approach that Jordan had, so he isn't quite as good, but he's basically the same kind of player.

I know, tsherkin. I was just being a smartass to kasino! I know that's hard to believe!

jaypo not cool but you got thought u was for real