Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge

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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#121 » by Piecake » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:06 am

TheGreatBlaze wrote:He's a good shooter. He's an excellent 3-point/free throw shooter and that's how he gets his points and posts a solid TS%. It's nice but not amazing.


I am not trying to convince you that he is an amazing player. I don't think he is an amazing player, I think he is a very good player. KG is an amazing player, and he took an absolutely horrific wolves cast, worse than the one Love has, to a 27 win team in 07, which I thought was quite the accomplishment. What I am arguing is that his teammates are really really bad and definitely a lot worse than the Blazers supporting cast.

I am arguing that because I find the argument that LMA is leading the blazers to more wins than Love lacking, considering that LMA's team is a lot better
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#122 » by thegreatblaze » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:08 am

Zeitgeister wrote:
Precisely. Love doesn't take a lot of shots anyway, and there really are very few plays run for him so I don't think it would change his scoring outload much if at all. A better coach would probably run more plays for the guy as well. His rebounds would probably take a bit of a hit, I can't really be sure how much though.

LOL, if you put Love in Nate's system he would not be putting up better numbers right now, and the Blazers would probably be out of the playoff picture.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#123 » by Piecake » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:11 am

TheGreatBlaze wrote:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

Stats can be helpful but basing your entire argument on them is not a great way to analyze basketball. They don't account for defense which Aldridge is FAR better at than Love.


I get the impression that you don't know what I am arguing right now. And yes, I agree. Stats dont take into account defense and LMA is better than Love at defense.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#124 » by Zeitgeister » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:12 am

TheGreatBlaze wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:
Precisely. Love doesn't take a lot of shots anyway, and there really are very few plays run for him so I don't think it would change his scoring outload much if at all. A better coach would probably run more plays for the guy as well. His rebounds would probably take a bit of a hit, I can't really be sure how much though.

LOL, if you put Love in Nate's system he would not be putting up better numbers right now, and the Blazers would probably be out of the playoff picture.


He might be putting up better numbers. You guys have a better point guard than we do. But my main point is that they would be competitive in more games because Portland takes much better care of the ball.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#125 » by thegreatblaze » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:12 am

Piecake wrote:
TheGreatBlaze wrote:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

Stats can be helpful but basing your entire argument on them is not a great way to analyze basketball. They don't account for defense which Aldridge is FAR better at than Love.


I get the impression that you don't know what I am arguing right now. And yes, I agree. Stats dont take into account defense and LMA is better than Love at defense.

I'm not a stat guru and I don't dip into advanced stats too often other than PER. I prefer watching the games.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#126 » by Worm Guts » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:14 am

KG is an amazing player, and he took an absolutely horrific wolves cast, worse than the one Love has, to a 27 win team in 07, which I thought was quite the accomplishment


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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#127 » by thegreatblaze » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:14 am

Zeitgeister wrote:
TheGreatBlaze wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:
Precisely. Love doesn't take a lot of shots anyway, and there really are very few plays run for him so I don't think it would change his scoring outload much if at all. A better coach would probably run more plays for the guy as well. His rebounds would probably take a bit of a hit, I can't really be sure how much though.

LOL, if you put Love in Nate's system he would not be putting up better numbers right now, and the Blazers would probably be out of the playoff picture.


He might be putting up better numbers. You guys have a better point guard than we do. But my main point is that they would be competitive in more games because Portland takes much better care of the ball.

It's possible but it's not really worth arguing over because we'll never know either way. I'm done here though, both players are good and I'll just leave it at that.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#128 » by Piecake » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:18 am

TheGreatBlaze wrote:I'm not a stat guru and I don't dip into advanced stats too often other than PER. I prefer watching the games.


Are you implying that I dont? :lol:

Look, I said previously, the reason why I am using data is it backs up what I see on the court, that the wolves supporting cast is really really bad. And While I havent seen a lot of Portland games, the Portland supporting cast, while not amazing, sure looked a lot better than the wolves, which again, is born out in the stats.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#129 » by Agenda42 » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:56 am

Piecake wrote:
TheGreatBlaze wrote:I'm not a stat guru and I don't dip into advanced stats too often other than PER. I prefer watching the games.


Are you implying that I dont? :lol:

Look, I said previously, the reason why I am using data is it backs up what I see on the court, that the wolves supporting cast is really really bad. And While I havent seen a lot of Portland games, the Portland supporting cast, while not amazing, sure looked a lot better than the wolves, which again, is born out in the stats.


I agree that the rest of the Blazers are better than the rest of the Wolves. Beasley is the only guy that the Wolves have that the Blazer supporting cast really can't match, and the perennially underrated Miller continues to be a very solid floor general.

On the other hand, I don't believe that Love can carry a team down the stretch offensively. Without a reliable isolation game, he's dependent on other players setting him up with good shots or offensive rebounding for putbacks. Neither are really ways you want your best player to try to score in crunch time, and I think that's something Love will need to develop if he's going to be comparable to Aldridge as an offensive option.

I think Love's best future is as a complementary player on a good team. Rebounding never goes out of style, and the ability to get excellent rebounding and three point shooting from the same PF is a rare and useful piece to place around your superstar.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#130 » by JCWalters » Wed Feb 9, 2011 12:04 pm

When you are comparing LA to Love, you are comparing a 1st option player to an at-best 2nd and a half option player--1 v 2b or 2c. When you are comparing stats, you must take this factor into account.

To elaborate in more concrete terms, LA can break the d down for his team by creating in the low post; against weaker than average teams, LA can probably create facing up, too.

Love cannot create back to the basket or face up; perhaps against really bad defensive teams (celler dwellers) Love can face up from mid to high post, but against average to some below average teams, Love has no 1st option game. Love needs someone else on his team to break down the d first, to initiate the offense.

What all this means in terms of stats is that LA's stats are accumulated against set defenses and defenses that are cognizant that LA is the offensive initiator and that Love's stats are accumulated against broken defenses and defenses that view him as someone to worry less about and work less hard against.

If Love has to overcome the higher level of d that LA catches, Love's number will drop by a lot. And if LA catches the lower level of d that Love routinely faces, LA's numbers will rise by a lot.

You have to account for this or you will be comparing apples to oranges. You will be comparing LA going against stronger d versus Love going against weaker d. To compare LA v Love, it must be 1) LA against strong D versus Love against strong D OR 2) LA against weak D versus Love against weak D. You account for this by discounting Love's numbers and by putting a premium on LA's numbers.


There are other issues, too. One issue is that Love is sleeping on big man's duties that do not show up in stats--being in defensive position against his man, being in defensive position against drives and cuts, etc. LA is not slacking on these things, so he can't devote additional energy and favorable positioning towards stat padding.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#131 » by farzi » Wed Feb 9, 2011 12:40 pm

But there aren't any statistics that show that, so Kevin Love supporters will ignore it / say you 're wrong
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#132 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Feb 9, 2011 1:09 pm

TheGreatBlaze wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:This is preposterous. One thing I've noticed in looking at some numbers is just how much better the Blazers are at protecting the basketball. Both LMA and Love are very good in this regard. The problem is that while LMA's team is also very good, Love's is not, they are the worst in the league.

Portland is the second best team in the league in turnover differential, while the Timberwolves are 28th in the league in turnover differential. Minnesota is also the worst team in the league in Assist/Turnover ratio.

Basketball is not a strictly rigid game, it is fluid and a team game. Every player has a part to play and according to every advanced statistic I've seen, Love is the superior player to LMA. That of course, is according to season long play not the past 15-20 games when Brandon Roy hasn't been playing. You can't judge a player on such a small sample size, Aldridge is playing excellent right now but it hasn't been long enough to know whether he can continue with this.

Nate McMillan runs the slowest, most cautious offense in the league. His style limits turnovers and mistakes a lot. Another thing since Nate's system is so slow it's hard to put up good stats with slow grind it out pace and fewer possessions.

And since Roy has been out the past 30 games LMA has been a different player. I'd love to see what his advanced stats have been since then, his PER amongst other things is probably a lot higher. Small sample size sure, but Love only has a 20 more game sample size.


Slow pace inflates the statistics (advanced) or star players.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#133 » by CoffeeJanitor » Wed Feb 9, 2011 2:46 pm

Agenda42 wrote:
Piecake wrote:
TheGreatBlaze wrote:I'm not a stat guru and I don't dip into advanced stats too often other than PER. I prefer watching the games.


Are you implying that I dont? :lol:

Look, I said previously, the reason why I am using data is it backs up what I see on the court, that the wolves supporting cast is really really bad. And While I havent seen a lot of Portland games, the Portland supporting cast, while not amazing, sure looked a lot better than the wolves, which again, is born out in the stats.


I agree that the rest of the Blazers are better than the rest of the Wolves. Beasley is the only guy that the Wolves have that the Blazer supporting cast really can't match, and the perennially underrated Miller continues to be a very solid floor general.

On the other hand, I don't believe that Love can carry a team down the stretch offensively. Without a reliable isolation game, he's dependent on other players setting him up with good shots or offensive rebounding for putbacks. Neither are really ways you want your best player to try to score in crunch time, and I think that's something Love will need to develop if he's going to be comparable to Aldridge as an offensive option.

I think Love's best future is as a complementary player on a good team. Rebounding never goes out of style, and the ability to get excellent rebounding and three point shooting from the same PF is a rare and useful piece to place around your superstar.
Huh. Love nailed two clutch 3's and got a few other buckets down the stretch last night.

If you've watched the Wolves at all this year you'd know he's actually pretty deadly from downtown down the stretch.

Of course, you can't just give it to him and tell him to score, so that's obviously a knock on him.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#134 » by Malapropism » Wed Feb 9, 2011 4:49 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:Slow pace inflates the statistics (advanced) or star players.

Yeah...because most advanced stats are pace adjusted.

Chances are, if said player played in a faster paced offense, they'd likely be putting up better raw stats...
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#135 » by Piecake » Wed Feb 9, 2011 6:20 pm

JCWalters wrote:When you are comparing LA to Love, you are comparing a 1st option player to an at-best 2nd and a half option player--1 v 2b or 2c. When you are comparing stats, you must take this factor into account.

To elaborate in more concrete terms, LA can break the d down for his team by creating in the low post; against weaker than average teams, LA can probably create facing up, too.

Love cannot create back to the basket or face up; perhaps against really bad defensive teams (celler dwellers) Love can face up from mid to high post, but against average to some below average teams, Love has no 1st option game. Love needs someone else on his team to break down the d first, to initiate the offense.

What all this means in terms of stats is that LA's stats are accumulated against set defenses and defenses that are cognizant that LA is the offensive initiator and that Love's stats are accumulated against broken defenses and defenses that view him as someone to worry less about and work less hard against.

If Love has to overcome the higher level of d that LA catches, Love's number will drop by a lot. And if LA catches the lower level of d that Love routinely faces, LA's numbers will rise by a lot.


What you don't seem to understand is while Love is not a number 1 option and is not the focal point of our offense, the wolves don't have number 1 option. Love gets his points in the flow of our offense and from offensive rebounds. Love gets points on jumpers, the low block, and put backs. A team would be foolish not to pay attention to Love on the first two of those because he is our only consistent scorer.

Our only other scoring threat is Beasley, who has played like crap since January and is widely inconsistent, and our 3rd scoring threat averages like 10 points a game and only scores on wide open jumpers. No one our team can really break down a defense. Well, Beasley can, but for some reason he usually doesnt.

Love can also create his own shot in the low block. Is he as good as LMA? No, but dont say he can't get his shot off in the block when he can. Love is also great in the pick and pop, which is a pretty useful skill in the NBA. You simply cannot leave love open in that scenario because he will hit a 3. As for your lower level of D BS and LMA's numbers would rise, well, they sure didnt rise when LMA was a second option to Roy and saw less defensive attention. They actually rose when LMA became the focal point of the offense...

As the focal point of your offense, it is really surprising how low LMA assists numbers are. You'd think he would at least average 3.5-4 assists a game. I mean, Tim Duncan isnt a particularly good passer, but he at least averaged about that.

There are other issues, too. One issue is that Love is sleeping on big man's duties that do not show up in stats--being in defensive position against his man, being in defensive position against drives and cuts, etc. LA is not slacking on these things, so he can't devote additional energy and favorable positioning towards stat padding.


He did a pretty good job on team defense in our win against Houston. Am I saying that he is a good defender or even an average one or is even always in the correct position for team defense? No, but don't over-exaggerate Love's faults and say that his poor defense is just a way for him to pad stats
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#136 » by Agenda42 » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:35 pm

CoffeeJanitor wrote:Huh. Love nailed two clutch 3's and got a few other buckets down the stretch last night.

If you've watched the Wolves at all this year you'd know he's actually pretty deadly from downtown down the stretch.

Of course, you can't just give it to him and tell him to score, so that's obviously a knock on him.


I'm plenty aware of what Love can do. He went to high school a few minutes from my house, I'm excited he's doing so well in the NBA.

Love making clutch threes falls into the "dependent on other players setting him up" category. He's not a guy who can create shots very well, and that's not a good thing if you're trying to make him your first option.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#137 » by Piecake » Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:53 pm

Agenda42 wrote:
CoffeeJanitor wrote:Huh. Love nailed two clutch 3's and got a few other buckets down the stretch last night.

If you've watched the Wolves at all this year you'd know he's actually pretty deadly from downtown down the stretch.

Of course, you can't just give it to him and tell him to score, so that's obviously a knock on him.


I'm plenty aware of what Love can do. He went to high school a few minutes from my house, I'm excited he's doing so well in the NBA.

Love making clutch threes falls into the "dependent on other players setting him up" category. He's not a guy who can create shots very well, and that's not a good thing if you're trying to make him your first option.


What wolves fan is saying that he is going to be our first option in the future or is the focal point of the offense? We are simply saying that right now, he is our only consistent offense.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#138 » by Zeitgeister » Wed Feb 9, 2011 10:16 pm

Agenda42 wrote:
CoffeeJanitor wrote:Huh. Love nailed two clutch 3's and got a few other buckets down the stretch last night.

If you've watched the Wolves at all this year you'd know he's actually pretty deadly from downtown down the stretch.

Of course, you can't just give it to him and tell him to score, so that's obviously a knock on him.


I'm plenty aware of what Love can do. He went to high school a few minutes from my house, I'm excited he's doing so well in the NBA.

Love making clutch threes falls into the "dependent on other players setting him up" category. He's not a guy who can create shots very well, and that's not a good thing if you're trying to make him your first option.


He's not a "first scoring option" and Aldridge hasn't proven yet that he is either. I'd rather look for a first scoring option from the perimeter since the league tends to favor them anyway.
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#139 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Feb 9, 2011 10:39 pm

Malapropism wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:Slow pace inflates the statistics (advanced) or star players.

Yeah...because most advanced stats are pace adjusted.

Chances are, if said player played in a faster paced offense, they'd likely be putting up better raw stats...


More possessions = more opportunity for raw numbers, so yes agreed.

A lot of people realize the point I made is true. (apparently lol, I wasn't the one who did the research...)
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Re: Kevin Love vs Lamarcus Aldridge 

Post#140 » by DaVoiceMaster » Wed Feb 9, 2011 11:03 pm

Love may be stat-padding his rebounds, but so are a few posters in this thread. Holy cow, I can't believe this argument went on all night long, nor that I read it all morning long. Geez!!!
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