Where would you rank Duncan among the all time greats?

Jimmy Recard · Post #21 » by **Jimmy Recard** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 2:52 am

Yeah top 10 easily.

Brooklyn_34 · Post #22 » by **Brooklyn_34** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 4:21 am

G35 wrote:Oh you done messed up....you have signed your REALGM death warrant! Hakeem has no discernible weaknesses, single-handedly won 2 titles, and destroyed other legendary centers in the process. The way he stepped his game up in the playoff's makes his resume' bullet proof......

Hmmm....

I just want to present a fuller picture of his career. People make judgments based an incomplete picture, that's all.

He did have weaknesses as a player. Of course, watching youtube highlights may show otherwise, but he had weaknesses. He was quite turnover prone, despite what people think. People said Patrick Ewing was turnover prone (he had those small hands), but Hakeem was also. He did have trouble reading double teams and opposing teams' defenses-- he just had the moves and athleticism to hide that. Closely watch him in the 1994 NBA finals. Look at the details. Watch him in particularly in games 1 and 2 (second half of both games) and in Game 3. Also watch him in Game 7.... These are just examples. He could be coaxed into picking up cheap fouls because he would buy fakes. To this day I am still upset at Patrick Ewing. He is still one of my favorite players all-time, but in games 6 and 7, Olajuwon picked up his fifth foul in the 4th quarter. Pat should have been more aggressive to try to get him out of the game. IMO, Olajuwon should have never been in the game to block John's 3pt attempt. Every f'ing possession should have been in Pat's hands to drive to the hoop, especially in game 7. Oh well.... that's history.

I understand Olajuwon's post game, but he was also a jump shooter as well. He took way more jumpers than people think he did. Duncan plays in the post more than Hakeem did....way more.

He did not destroy Patrick. Patrick was actually the best defensive player in that series. I don't know how this happened, but Pat finished with more blocks than Hakeem. He had a HUGE rebounding advantage over Hakeem. Hakeem was all over Pat and he could not hit his jump shots. That was the difference in the series. Pat played some honest 'D' on Hakeem and was able to block some of his shots, including a critical one in the 4th quarter of game 2 (and a steal on Hakeem) which helped the Knicks win that game... people forget that.

If Pat was able to hit even a mediocre 41-42% from the field, maybe we could have pulled away.

Yes, Hakeem outplayed him, but he did not destroy him. Watch the series for yourself... it's on youtube.

He DEFINITELY destroyed DRob.....It was unconscionable what I saw in that series. David was totally helpless... he really let his team down.

He did not destroy Shaq. Yes, he outplayed him, but Shaq did a very good defensive job in the series against Hakeem, and did a lot of it without the benefit of double teams. I know he averaged nearly 34 pts per game, but it took 30 shots per game to get that. He was held to 47% shooting. Hakeem MOST CERTAINLY was not able to stop O'Neal. If Nick Anderson hits those free throws, that series would have been very different. I can't say I've seen anything like that in my time watching NBA ball....

But please consider the information I have presented, that's all. There is always a historical context that needs to be looked at when evaluating a player.

SaveOurBullets · Post #23 » by **SaveOurBullets** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 4:31 am

It's funny how he almost gets a backhanded compliment from being consistent, and since he has a reputation for being so quiet and fundamentally sound, people think or get a subconscious vibe that he wasn't that dominant. Yet the dude won two MVPs, and he won a championship in perhaps the most singlehanded fashion in NBA history.

And on the flip side, "consistency" is normally associated with longevity, something that Duncan surprisingly doesn't seem to have the way he's been fading lately.

lakegz1 · Post #24 » by **lakegz1** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 4:33 am

I'm torn about Duncan. He certainly has accomplished successes that few other have in the history of the NBA. His numbers might not blow your mind, but he did what he had to do to win the biggest prize 4 times.
Maybe this is my Laker bias coming out but the thing about Duncan is that he never struck fear into me as I watched my Lakers go up against him so many times. What seemed like the biggest challenge in facing the spurs, was not individual players, but their overall discipline as a team. They always seemed bigger than the sum of their parts and I attribute this of course to the players who executed, but mostly to Popovich and his coaching staff as I don't care who is in the Spurs starting lineup, I just know they're going to play hard, execute well and probably win in the end.

Barstool Blues · Post #25 » by **Barstool Blues** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 5:25 am

Top 10? No. He's not even the best player for the Spurs franchise...Robinson was much more dominant offensively and especially defensively at his best. The only problem is Robinson came into the league at 24 and only had 6-7 super star years...but at his best he's a far superior player to Duncan.

Joseph17 · Post #26 » by **Joseph17** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 5:42 am

My original thought was no, but after thinking about it he's probably around 10.

Joseph17 · Post #27 » by **Joseph17** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 5:46 am

In no order:
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Russell
Robertson
West
Kobe
Shaq

He's actually not in my top 10

huskerdu · Post #28 » by **huskerdu** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 5:56 am

Top 10 no question. He did more with a far less supporting cast than most of the other players listed in the top 15.

He's inarguably the greatest PF of all time.

Brooklyn_34 · Post #29 » by **Brooklyn_34** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 6:23 am

Barstool Blues wrote:Top 10? No. He's not even the best player for the Spurs franchise...Robinson was much more dominant offensively and especially defensively at his best. The only problem is Robinson came into the league at 24 and only had 6-7 super star years...but at his best he's a far superior player to Duncan.

Interesting point. I like David, but I felt he underachieved during his career.

He was an absolute physical speciman.... it was like he was really a 5 foot 7 person that the camera blew up and made into a seven footer. He was well proportioned. He moved and had the mobility of a shooting guard.

Offensively, he was dominant but during the playoffs, he was not as effective. Part of it had to do with HOW he scored....He was a scorer in the mold of Walt Bellamy-- a good face up game. Also, teams would start playing him dirty in the playoffs. He would also be tripled a lot. Hakeem did light David up, but Hakeem also used doubles and triples on him as well. His teammates did not step up when this happened. But sometimes David did not hold his end of the bargain.... that 1995 series (however unfair, and I do blame a little bit on Rodman) really hurt his career-- sometimes he himself did not step up. Tim was actually harder to defend in situations like that because of his BACK TO THE BASKET game and deftness in the post. He was also a MUCH better passer than David to find open people.

Defensively, David was a slightly better shotblocker. In terms of TOTAL IMPACT on that end, I would say they are roughly even. Tim IMO is a better TEAM defender than David.

Tim brings other intangibles to the game so that he does not need to score 30+ for his team to be successful(although he can when necessary: see Game 6, 2003 playoffs against LAL-- legendary performance. He really took it to O'Neal that game. Horry was helpless. David never did anything like that).

He knows the game so darned well..there are many ways he can impact the game. As good a player as DRob was, he did not have the knowledge of the game Timmy has. Duncan essentially has mastered post play and defense. He is one of the few players you can watch and learn how to play the game from. David did not have the understanding of the game Tim has.

Both were skilled at generating regular season wins. Duncan was way more successful at generating PLAYOFF wins.

JonnyF · Post #30 » by **JonnyF** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 6:37 am

For people (Joseph17) putting Kobe in the top 10, can I ask why him over Duncan?

kaulkhara15 · Post #31 » by **kaulkhara15** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 6:51 am

If you don't have him in your top 10, then I can't take you seriously.

He's #7 on my list.

howardnorl · Post #32 » by **howardnorl** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 6:55 am

kaulkhara15 wrote:If you don't have him in your top 10, then I can't take you seriously.

He's #7 on my list.

To be fair I think those posters were talking about Duncan right now in the current NBA (I hope).

Coxy · Post #33 » by **Coxy** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 7:02 am

Brooklyn_34 wrote:When I evaluate players for 'all time' sake, one of the things I look at are MVP voting, and especially All-NBA team selections. That gives me a much better idea of who is doing what and when they were doing it.

When you look at Tim Duncan's resume (MVPs as well as MVP finishes, All NBA team selections, titles, playoff performances, etc), it is quite clear that he is in EXTREMELY select company.

He is what I call an "alpha dog"-- meaning unquestionably one of the best in his position for an extended period of time. Bob Petitt was another example --he was all-nba 1st team every single year he played until his last season, when he made the 2nd team. Bird was another 'alpha dog':1st teams almost all the way through along with 3 MVPs and titles to boot. Jordan was probably the biggest "alpha" along with Jabbar.

For me, there are only 6 players that have a resume as SUBSTANTIAL as Timmy boy's:

Jordan
Chamberlain
Jabbar
Bird
Russell
Johnson

Shaq and Kobe could be in there as well. A case can be made for Jerry West and Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson. But Duncan has the titles over West and Robertson and definitely over Baylor.
He has them over Petitt as well.... I respect Pettit and think he has been totally forgotten about (he is in my top 3 PF of all time and had one of the greatest performances in NBA finals history) but I can't take Bob over Timmy boy.

At most I can say that 11 players have a more substantial resume than Duncan. There are in my mind at least 6.

That's about it....

Great post. Well analysed.

His resume and effect on the Spurs as a franchise can not be disputed. He's almost top 5 for me, and like this last post has stated, he is in rare company with his resume now. Hard to NOT have him in the top 10.

Post #34 » by **Def Swami** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 7:02 am

Best power forward of all time.

TeeheeDumDum · Post #35 » by **TeeheeDumDum** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 7:04 am

Top 2 definitely.

In fact, I'm not sure which is better, Kryspy Kreme Donuts or Duncan Donuts.

Jeff23 · Post #36 » by **Jeff23** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 11:41 am

kaulkhara15 wrote:If you don't have him in your top 10, then I can't take you seriously.

He's #7 on my list.

this.

treiz · Post #37 » by **treiz** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 1:33 pm

I have him really high.! he was my fav player in the noughties.
I still say his second title is the most impressive title or least help I have seen a player win the title.

kuhane gace · Post #38 » by **kuhane gace** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 4:17 pm

magic
jordan
jabbr
olajuwon
russel
duncun
shaq
kobe
wilt
bird

Pomme · Post #39 » by **Pomme** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 4:38 pm

greatest PF of all time.

TOP 10 EASY.

swstein · Post #40 » by **swstein** » Sat Apr 9, 2011 4:46 pm

Top 10 but not Top 5.