Where does Kobe rank on "greatest of all time" lists?

[Dr Positivity]

11 and down for me. I put Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron ahead for sure. Kobe can go against anyone after that.

LOL good one, I almost thought you were serious there for a second. Next time use green font so no one thinks you're crazy.

I assume your exception is Lebron on the list

Here's my reasoning

Lebron is a better basketball player than Kobe has ever been. Therefore, he should rank higher on the all-time best basketball players list

[tsherkin]

Got to respect Tsherkin's grudging respect for Kobe... as pained as it comes out. Forced objectivity is still objectivity.

Hey, hey, I've always appreciated Kobe the player. It's just that his fans have been extremely zealous in their attempts to paint him as the next Jordan and I often find myself on the other end of that spectrum.

If you look at Kobe's play in a vacuum, you're looking at easily one of the four best SGs in league history (and really, more like the 2nd best since West and Oscar were both really more like scoring point guards).

My only argument with this statement is the failure to even reference the other three championships. The last two of them, Kobe clearly played at least a 1b role.

It's implicit that they're part of his career, though, and a big part of why he's ranked where he is compared to, say, top 15-20. I don't agree with a 1b label, though, since the team was blatantly tailored around Shaq and the coach spent the entire stretch harping on how the triple-POST offense had to run through the dominant post scorer. Kobe was a very good player, but this is like saying Havlicek was 1b to Russell. If you mean 1b in the sense that the 4th quarter was more Kobe's domain than Shaq, then that's true, but that was a team clearly designed with Diesel as the main man and Kobe as the second star.

I also disagree with the bolded part. Pretty subjective stuff passed off as facts.

I look at that mainly in terms of what I saw from him compared to what I saw from the truly dominant greats. Kobe was a shade of MJ, for example, and not nearly as dominant as guys like Wilt, Russell and Kareem. He also never managed to be good enough to garner consistent recognition as the best player in the league while Shaq and Duncan were at the peak of their games, which does hurt Kobe in the context of his GOAT ranking (a relative measure to be sure, given the quality of player to which he's being compared, which itself says something about his talent level).

EDIT: Anyway, now you've got me being negative when what I wanted was a positive affirmation that Kobe's career is one of the 10 best in league history, which it is. He's a remarkable player. He's vulnerable now as he gets noticeably into his decline phase for the first time, but his body of work is matched by precious few, and exceeded only by the most truly dominant players in league history. A truly incredible athlete.

[Black Feet]

11 and down for me. I put Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron ahead for sure. Kobe can go against anyone after that.

LOL good one, I almost thought you were serious there for a second. Next time use green font so no one thinks you're crazy.

I assume your exception is Lebron on the list

Here's my reasoning

Lebron is a better basketball player than Kobe has ever been. Therefore, he should rank higher on the all-time best basketball players list

1st. Lebron isn't better than Kobe and probably never will be imo and in many others opinions as well

2nd Everyone in the top 10 has lead their teams to multiple championships unlike your King James

3rd I can't take anyone seriously who thinks Lebron is a top 15 let alone top 10 player already, but you're entitled to your opinion however crazy it may be.

[GilmoreFan]

1st. Lebron isn't better than Kobe and probably never will be imo and in many others opinions as well

Ah. I'll know better than to take your seriously next time then... is there any actual evidence to support this contention btw?

[tsherkin]

1st. Lebron isn't better than Kobe and probably never will be imo and in many others opinions as well

It's actually pretty hard to make that argument at this point, given that Kobe's major advantage is pretty much in FT and 3PT shooting and nothing else. Lebron's a better rebounder and defender while providing comparable scoring and superior playmaking. Kobe's game is considerably more pleasing from an aesthetic perspective, but it's hard to really say he's a BETTER player. If nothing else, there's at least an incredibly strong argument that they are of comparable value as players, rather than Kobe > Lebron.

Beyond that, legit points though. Kobe's definitely had what you could consider a greater career, and that's excluding the first half of his career. Three straight Finals appearances with two consecutive titles compared to a single Finals appearance resulting in a sweep loss? Check for Kobe on that account even down one MVP. Three All-Star MVPs (IIRC tying the record), two scoring titles to Lebron's one, and there remain the specter of those three titles with Shaq.

Kobe's 100% deserving of being ranked ahead of Lebron on a GOAT list at this point.

[ORLANDO_MAGIC]

11 and down for me. I put Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron ahead for sure. Kobe can go against anyone after that.

LOL good one, I almost thought you were serious there for a second. Next time use green font so no one thinks you're crazy.

I assume your exception is Lebron on the list

Here's my reasoning

Lebron is a better basketball player than Kobe has ever been. Therefore, he should rank higher on the all-time best basketball players list

Lebron is also better than Magic or Bird ever were. Your rankings are Bad.


BTW gilmorefan has a new nickname and already has over 100 post in 2 days.

[drza]

Kobe is always such an interesting case to me. Of those in his generation I think he wasn't quite as good as Duncan and KG but was slightly ahead of Dirk. If we bring in overlapping half-generations, I think both Shaq (1/2 generation prior) and LeBron (1/2 generation later) are also better. So if I were ranking just the "post-Jordan" era I'd have Kobe about 5th. But that isn't the question at hand (and yes, I know the OP asked for what the consensus on Kobe is and not individual opinions, but by this point I think it's safe to say the thread has evolved).

I don't especially love all-time lists, because I don't see realistic ways to correct for huge changes across eras. To me, there's more of a "top tier" that includes the best of the best from every generation than a correct cross-generational hierarchy. That said, I would say that in the shot clock era Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird and Jordan have all dominated their eras more-so than Kobe dominated his and players like Petit, Oscar, West, Erving, Hakeem, Malone, Malone, David Robinson, and Barkley would all deserve to be in the conversation as well.

All told, I guess I'd currently have Kobe in the 12 - 16 range.

[Gongxi]

1st. Lebron isn't better than Kobe and probably never will be imo and in many others opinions as well

It's actually pretty hard to make that argument at this point, given that Kobe's major advantage is pretty much in FT and 3PT shooting and nothing else. Lebron's a better rebounder and defender while providing comparable scoring and superior playmaking. Kobe's game is considerably more pleasing from an aesthetic perspective, but it's hard to really say he's a BETTER player. If nothing else, there's at least an incredibly strong argument that they are of comparable value as players, rather than Kobe > Lebron.

Beyond that, legit points though. Kobe's definitely had what you could consider a greater career, and that's excluding the first half of his career. Three straight Finals appearances with two consecutive titles compared to a single Finals appearance resulting in a sweep loss? Check for Kobe on that account even down one MVP. Three All-Star MVPs (IIRC tying the record), two scoring titles to Lebron's one, and there remain the specter of those three titles with Shaq.

Kobe's 100% deserving of being ranked ahead of Lebron on a GOAT list at this point.

I agree that he is, but not because of random accolades. You don't judge players based upon how they play basketball but instead upon 'career achievements'? I had thought better of you.

The reason Kobe would be ahead of LeBron now is longevity. And that's it.

[tsherkin]

I agree that he is, but not because of random accolades. You don't judge players based upon how they play basketball but instead upon 'career achievements'? I had thought better of you.

The reason Kobe would be ahead of LeBron now is longevity. And that's it.

I evaluate the answer to GOAT rankings differently than I evaluate who was better.

A GOAT ranking is entirely about how your career played out; individual accolades, team achievements, stand-out abilities, dominance relative to peers, that sort of thing.

How good you were as a player is not a function of how lucky you were as far as team management and such go, however, and thus must be evaluated independently.

[GilmoreFan]

I guess Erving should be above Kobe based on how much he meant to the game of basketball... Mikan too maybe? Come to think of it, M.Malone has 3 MVP awards among other things.

[Gongxi]

I agree that he is, but not because of random accolades. You don't judge players based upon how they play basketball but instead upon 'career achievements'? I had thought better of you.

The reason Kobe would be ahead of LeBron now is longevity. And that's it.

I evaluate the answer to GOAT rankings differently than I evaluate who was better.

A GOAT ranking is entirely about how your career played out; individual accolades, team achievements, stand-out abilities, dominance relative to peers, that sort of thing.

How good you were as a player is not a function of how lucky you were as far as team management and such go, however, and thus must be evaluated independently.

I think that's pointless. Why not just have a 'Greatest of All-Time' list based upon, ya know, how great you were at playing basketball?

[Black Feet]

1st. Lebron isn't better than Kobe and probably never will be imo and in many others opinions as well

It's actually pretty hard to make that argument at this point, given that Kobe's major advantage is pretty much in FT and 3PT shooting and nothing else. Lebron's a better rebounder and defender while providing comparable scoring and superior playmaking. Kobe's game is considerably more pleasing from an aesthetic perspective, but it's hard to really say he's a BETTER player. If nothing else, there's at least an incredibly strong argument that they are of comparable value as players, rather than Kobe > Lebron.

Beyond that, legit points though. Kobe's definitely had what you could consider a greater career, and that's excluding the first half of his career. Three straight Finals appearances with two consecutive titles compared to a single Finals appearance resulting in a sweep loss? Check for Kobe on that account even down one MVP. Three All-Star MVPs (IIRC tying the record), two scoring titles to Lebron's one, and there remain the specter of those three titles with Shaq.

Kobe's 100% deserving of being ranked ahead of Lebron on a GOAT list at this point.

Lebron isn't a better defender, and his rebounding advantage is only on the defensive boards which doesn't impress me.

[GilmoreFan]

That's absurd. Lebron is a far better defender than Kobe has ever been, and Kobe hasn't been an especially good defender for years now. He's been getting his defensive teams largely on rep.

[Gongxi]

Black Feet be trolling.

[Jordan23Forever]

I usually have him in the #9 or 10 spot.

[Black Feet]

That's absurd. Lebron is a far better defender than Kobe has ever been, and Kobe hasn't been an especially good defender for years now. He's been getting his defensive teams largely on rep.

Absurd? Kobe in the early 2000's was a much better defender than Lebron is now, you're probably too young to know.

[305rob305]

Top 7-8 all time

[305rob305]

That's absurd. Lebron is a far better defender than Kobe has ever been, and Kobe hasn't been an especially good defender for years now. He's been getting his defensive teams largely on rep.

Absurd? Kobe in the early 2000's was a much better defender than Lebron is now, you're probably too young to know.

I'm sorry you're wrong. I've seen kobe since '96 and he has never been better than Lebron defensively

[Black Feet]

That's absurd. Lebron is a far better defender than Kobe has ever been, and Kobe hasn't been an especially good defender for years now. He's been getting his defensive teams largely on rep.

Absurd? Kobe in the early 2000's was a much better defender than Lebron is now, you're probably too young to know.

I'm sorry you're wrong. I've seen kobe since '96 and he has never been better than Lebron defensively

Says the Heat fan, Its really no question Lebron isn't even the best defender at his position he also often coasts on the defensive end. I've probably seen Lebron play more than you and you're a Heat fan.

[GilmoreFan]

I'm not a Heat fan, and I say it too. When did Kobe shut down D.Rose or P.Pierce? Even with all the rep votes Kobe gets for All-D teams, he's never sniffed coming as close the DPOY as Lebron did last year. Ridiculous stuff.