RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

AnaheimRoyale · Post #641 » by **AnaheimRoyale** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:55 pm

Not that I take anythin Jordanbulls says too seriously... but Hakeem has 1 MVP... how on earth is that more than "many in the top 10"?

AVolumeScorer · Post #642 » by **AVolumeScorer** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:16 pm

AnaheimRoyale wrote:Not that I take anythin Jordanbulls says too seriously... but Hakeem has 1 MVP... how on earth is that more than "many in the top 10"?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about LeBron

An Unbiased Fan · Post #643 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:08 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:
Hakeem. Needs 2 more titles to enter top 10.

Does he really 2 more titles to get in the top 10 if he has more MVP's than many in the top 10?

I guess it depends on the title/MVP shares ratio you're using.

MJ - 6 rings/8.138 MVP shares
KAJ - 6 rings/6.203 MVP shares
Magic - 5 rings/5.129 MVP shares
Russell - 11 rings/4.827 MVP shares
Kobe - 5 rings/4.054 MVP shares
Duncan - 4 rings/4.207 MVP shares
Shaq - 4 rings/4.380 MVP shares
Wilt - 2 rings/4.269 MVP shares
Bird - 3 rings/5.693 MVP shares
Hakeem - 2 rings/2.611 MVP shares

Lebron - 1 ring/4.389 MVP shares
West - 1 ring/2.090 MVP shares
Dr. J - 1 ring/1.407 MVP shares
Mailman - 0 rings/4.296 MVP shares
Oscar - 1 ring/2.479 MVP shares

I think another great title run puts him over Hakeem, and in the conversation with Bird & Wilt. He would need about 2-3 more great title runs to match people in my Top 7.

MisterWestside · Post #644 » by **MisterWestside** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:58 pm

The fact that Lebron only beat one good team in the PS before joining the Heat is worse than those other guys.

LeBron doesn't beat teams; basketball teams beat teams. And we can adjust his performances for era and opponent.

Until this year Lebron only had two impressive PS performances overall (2007 & 2009). The other ones weren't really good.

His 2011, 2010, and 2008 PS were among the league's best (considering box metrics, +/-, and minutes played in each). His only "pedestrian" PS was in 2006.

The league is very weak right now and he's on a team with other HOF players and another top 20-25 player ever.

These are irrelevant points (see 1st reply above), but HOF players? I count ONE HOF player on his team (Wade).

He has also put his best year behind him (it's possible he can top 09 but highly unlikely).

That's fine. 2009 was one of the best seasons ever by a player.

C-izMe · Post #645 » by **C-izMe** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:02 pm

Bosh is definetly going to end up in the hall.

MisterWestside · Post #646 » by **MisterWestside** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:09 pm

C-izMe wrote:Bosh is definetly going to end up in the hall.

Well...meh. Guess they let anybody in the Hall now.

therealbig3 · Post #647 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:47 pm

BTW, why is 09 unanimously considered better than 10 for LeBron?

By most metrics, 10 comes out on top. He played better in the playoffs in 09, but I think he faced a tougher team in 10 (Celtics) than any of the teams he played in 09. Are we really going to get on him that hard for one bad game? Overall, you've got a 30/9/7 on 60% TS RS with a 29/8/9 on 61% TS PS. His RS and PS +/- were better in 10 as well.

Just saying, I think 10 LeBron was slightly better than 09 LeBron, even though 09 LeBron was better in the playoffs.

C-izMe · Post #648 » by **C-izMe** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:55 pm

therealbig3 wrote:BTW, why is 09 unanimously considered better than 10 for LeBron?

By most metrics, 10 comes out on top. He played better in the playoffs in 09, but I think he faced a tougher team in 10 (Celtics) than any of the teams he played in 09. Are we really going to get on him that hard for one bad game? Overall, you've got a 30/9/7 on 60% TS RS with a 29/8/9 on 61% TS PS. His RS and PS +/- were better in 10 as well.

Just saying, I think 10 LeBron was slightly better than 09 LeBron, even though 09 LeBron was better in the playoffs.

I literately can't think of one metric where 10 comes out on top. His RAPM is slightly higher. Every other metric 09 beats 10. And you mention he played the Boston defense but he played bad against them. In 09 he played amazing against the number one ranked Magic defense. He was better in 09 in every possible way.

therealbig3 · Post #649 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:02 pm

C-izMe wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:BTW, why is 09 unanimously considered better than 10 for LeBron?

By most metrics, 10 comes out on top. He played better in the playoffs in 09, but I think he faced a tougher team in 10 (Celtics) than any of the teams he played in 09. Are we really going to get on him that hard for one bad game? Overall, you've got a 30/9/7 on 60% TS RS with a 29/8/9 on 61% TS PS. His RS and PS +/- were better in 10 as well.

Just saying, I think 10 LeBron was slightly better than 09 LeBron, even though 09 LeBron was better in the playoffs.

I literately can't think of one metric where 10 comes out on top. His RAPM is slightly higher. Every other metric 09 beats 10. And you mention he played the Boston defense but he played bad against them. In 09 he played amazing against the number one ranked Magic defense. He was better in 09 in every possible way.

His RS was better in 10, that's a big sample size.

And not only his RAPM, but his on/off in the playoffs is better in 10 than in 09 as well. His adj. +/- for the playoffs is better as well.

http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?i ... 20playoffs
http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?i ... 20playoffs

Also, he was a clearly superior shooter from pretty much everywhere on the court in 10 than he was in 09 outside of a small difference in 3pt%.

http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=LeBron%20James

And I think 10 Boston was a lot better than 09 Orlando.

C-izMe · Post #650 » by **C-izMe** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:24 pm

Lebron's 09 regular season is clearly better than 10.
Better rebounder
Better passer according to numbers. in 2010 had a 4.4:1 good:bad pass ratio. He had a 5.2:1 in 09 and his ast% was barely lower (a 38.0 in 09 and a 41.8 in 10).
Higher usage and a worse team can easily be the reason for the difference (as small as it is) in efficency.
He was a better defender in 09. His team ranked 3rd (instead of 7th) and his DRAPM was a 2.8 instead of a 2.6.
He also played WAAAAAY better in the playoffs. 2010 is far from a top ten season ever and 09 ranks top 10 minimum.

therealbig3 · Post #651 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:40 pm

C-izMe wrote:Lebron's 09 regular season is clearly better than 10.
Better rebounder
Better passer according to numbers. in 2010 had a 4.4:1 good:bad pass ratio. He had a 5.2:1 in 09 and his ast% was barely lower (a 38.0 in 09 and a 41.8 in 10).
Higher usage and a worse team can easily be the reason for the difference (as small as it is) in efficency.
He was a better defender in 09. His team ranked 3rd (instead of 7th) and his DRAPM was a 2.8 instead of a 2.6.
He also played WAAAAAY better in the playoffs. 2010 is far from a top ten season ever and 09 ranks top 10 minimum.

Ok, fair enough, but I don't think 10 is as far off 09 as you make it seem.

C-izMe · Post #652 » by **C-izMe** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:42 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
C-izMe wrote:Lebron's 09 regular season is clearly better than 10.
Better rebounder
Better passer according to numbers. in 2010 had a 4.4:1 good:bad pass ratio. He had a 5.2:1 in 09 and his ast% was barely lower (a 38.0 in 09 and a 41.8 in 10).
Higher usage and a worse team can easily be the reason for the difference (as small as it is) in efficency.
He was a better defender in 09. His team ranked 3rd (instead of 7th) and his DRAPM was a 2.8 instead of a 2.6.
He also played WAAAAAY better in the playoffs. 2010 is far from a top ten season ever and 09 ranks top 10 minimum.

Ok, fair enough, but I don't think 10 is as far off 09 as you make it seem.

During and immediately after the 2010 season I could see the argument for it but the more I thought about it the more I raised 2009 into a different class.

AnaheimRoyale · Post #653 » by **AnaheimRoyale** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:42 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:
Hakeem. Needs 2 more titles to enter top 10.

Does he really 2 more titles to get in the top 10 if he has more MVP's than many in the top 10?

I guess it depends on the title/MVP shares ratio you're using.

MJ - 6 rings/8.138 MVP shares
KAJ - 6 rings/6.203 MVP shares
Magic - 5 rings/5.129 MVP shares
Russell - 11 rings/4.827 MVP shares
Kobe - 5 rings/4.054 MVP shares
Duncan - 4 rings/4.207 MVP shares
Shaq - 4 rings/4.380 MVP shares
Wilt - 2 rings/4.269 MVP shares
Bird - 3 rings/5.693 MVP shares
Hakeem - 2 rings/2.611 MVP shares

Lebron - 1 ring/4.389 MVP shares
West - 1 ring/2.090 MVP shares
Dr. J - 1 ring/1.407 MVP shares
Mailman - 0 rings/4.296 MVP shares
Oscar - 1 ring/2.479 MVP shares

I think another great title run puts him over Hakeem, and in the conversation with Bird & Wilt. He would need about 2-3 more great title runs to match people in my Top 7.

What a ridiculous, contextless metric. Even with the most minor amount of context it falls into nothing. For instance, Kobe was only the man for 2 rings, so giving guys credit for rings they were actually the best player on their team for, Kobe would slide down to 9th (with Lebron a lock to catch him. Of course, that's still a stupid analysis, but the ridiculous way you've tried to claim all rings are equal for all players is rather bizarre. For instance, what Duncan or Erving or Hakeem did in 03/76/94 is more impressive than both Kobe's rings as the man put together.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #654 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:55 pm

AnaheimRoyale wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Does he really 2 more titles to get in the top 10 if he has more MVP's than many in the top 10?

I guess it depends on the title/MVP shares ratio you're using.

MJ - 6 rings/8.138 MVP shares
KAJ - 6 rings/6.203 MVP shares
Magic - 5 rings/5.129 MVP shares
Russell - 11 rings/4.827 MVP shares
Kobe - 5 rings/4.054 MVP shares
Duncan - 4 rings/4.207 MVP shares
Shaq - 4 rings/4.380 MVP shares
Wilt - 2 rings/4.269 MVP shares
Bird - 3 rings/5.693 MVP shares
Hakeem - 2 rings/2.611 MVP shares

Lebron - 1 ring/4.389 MVP shares
West - 1 ring/2.090 MVP shares
Dr. J - 1 ring/1.407 MVP shares
Mailman - 0 rings/4.296 MVP shares
Oscar - 1 ring/2.479 MVP shares

I think another great title run puts him over Hakeem, and in the conversation with Bird & Wilt. He would need about 2-3 more great title runs to match people in my Top 7.

What a ridiculous, contextless metric. Even with the most minor amount of context it falls into nothing. For instance, Kobe was only the man for 2 rings, so giving guys credit for rings they were actually the best player on their team for, Kobe would slide down to 9th (with Lebron a lock to catch him. Of course, that's still a stupid analysis, but the ridiculous way you've tried to claim all rings are equal for all players is rather bizarre. For instance, what Duncan or Erving or Hakeem did in 03/76/94 is more impressive than both Kobe's rings as the man put together.

1) That post was just to contextualize the current ring/MVP breakdown to JB.

2) If Kobe only gets credit for 2 rings, then how many does KAJ have? What about Magic? Your argument is invalid.

AnaheimRoyale · Post #655 » by **AnaheimRoyale** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:16 pm

It might be invalid if it was my argument.

Oh, PS- the answer is "still at least as many as Kobe, but with a much higher MVP share"

Kobe should be grateful he's generally rated from 10-15, as should you.

MisterWestside · Post #656 » by **MisterWestside** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:07 pm

And not only his RAPM, but his on/off in the playoffs is better in 10 than in 09 as well. His adj. +/- for the playoffs is better as well.

LeBron wasn't off the floor much in both postseasons - even for adjusted +/-, this can be misleading. Going by other information (box and especially game-watching) I'd say LeBron was playing at a little bit higher level in the 09 playoffs.

wigglestrue · Post #657 » by **wigglestrue** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:20 pm

Oden2 wrote:Dennis Johnson belongs on that list methinks.

AnaheimRoyale wrote:Not at all sure he does.

Major role for three championships.

1978-79 NBA Finals MVP

1979-80 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)

1978-79 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1981-82 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1982-83 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1984-85 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1985-86 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1986-87 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

Contributed more on the court than some people on the list.
(coughreggiemillercough)

ThaRegul8r · Post #658 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:33 am

MisterWestside wrote:
C-izMe wrote:Bosh is definetly going to end up in the hall.

Well...meh. Guess they let anybody in the Hall now.

"Now?"

Apparently you haven't been paying attention to who all's in the Hall.

AnaheimRoyale · Post #659 » by **AnaheimRoyale** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:36 am

A bunch of accolades doesn't tell us how good as a player he was... Dennis Johnson wasn't a franchise player. That's important.

wigglestrue · Post #660 » by **wigglestrue** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:48 am

AnaheimRoyale wrote:A bunch of accolades doesn't tell us how good as a player he was... Dennis Johnson wasn't a franchise player. That's important.

So are all 100 franchise players? How many aren't? Why are they there? Leading the Sonics to a championship is a mere "accolade" and isn't something a franchise player would do?