RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#1081 » by andrewww » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:58 am

PaulieWal wrote:Top 15? That's a little hyperbolic. I see him getting voted in at 10 or 11.


He's going to lose every run-off, book it. I'm calling Oscar, then Karl, and possibly Dr J or even The Logo to make it in before he does.

There are many reasonable posters who may view him in lower regard which is fine, but there's a select number of posters (Baller2014, Magicmerl, Moonbeam, RayBan-Sematra, Chuck Texas) who will probably never vote for him at any point. He is the least favourite player of Chuck Texas, Moonbeam, as they've both gone on the record and declared that. Just look at Chuck Texas' candidate list for the 12th spot...and he can correct me if I'm wrong but he had in the 11th slot candidates he'd be voting as KG/Oscar/West/Erving/Dirk/Barkley?/Admiral. Take that for what it's worth. For the record, I believe him to be one of the better posters overall but even he is not imune to bias as he's openly admitted to that possibility.

Unless he wins in an overwhelming majority, you can bank on the other candidate getting the majority of the run off votes, he's just not very popular here. When you have an epic post by a new poster that goes almost completely ignored by everyone...then see Semi-sentiment and even Shaqattack provide incredible rebuttal to the nonsense and agenda that has (and continues) to be displayed by Baller2014... let's just say there's room for improvement if the mods really want to keep it civil and not have their threads derailed, while maintaining relative objectivity.. objectivity and realgm? I've lost faith over some of this hypocrisy being preached in this project.

It's a joke. I'm just laughing at the number of pages being wasted by Baller2014. How he's still a part of the project... is simply ridiculous. He's an undercover but blatantly obvious troll with an agenda, and that is the definition of the type of poster that SHOULD NOT be granted voting eligibility.

I've seen baiting by mods (I myself am guilty of taking this bait), yet I'm singled out for causing a ruckus by being perhaps a bit too brutally honest? Others may sugar coat it, but I'm calling a spade a spade. There's just a lot of what appears to be open-mind discussion, but in reality some posters are simply looking for a narrative that suits them and they'll use it as they see fit depending on how much they like a certain candidate, it's that simple.

I hear argument of how he's selfish and won't let Pau shoot, yet Pau as a great a player as he's been for the Lakers...he's never been a volume guy, hence the efficiency. He simply won't take a shot if it's not there, but then someone has to jack up a shot and Kobe's never been shy about that. You couple the rise in the number of posters who preach advanced metrics, and how he's seemingly everyone's least likable player with a lot of negative media narrative to boot, and it becomes plainfully obvious if it hasn't already.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011 

Post#1082 » by therealbig3 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:10 am

andrewww wrote:When you have an epic post by a new poster that goes almost completely ignored by everyone


Just to respond to this point, that guy is not a new poster. He's had countless screen names here before, and he's the kind of guy that gives you objective Kobe fans a bad name, and why maybe some people might be slanted against Kobe (I try not to be).

As for his post, if I'm going to be honest as to why I ignored it: it's the same exact **** he's been posting forever, that in reality was pretty thin on new information and was just repeating the same old stat lines that we're all familiar with already...this time, he just recycled everything into one post and that's why it looked "epic". And the funniest thing about that post...the guy HATES RAPM, and yet used selective years of RAPM that make Kobe look as good as possible as part of his evidence.

I don't speak for everyone, but for me personally, I can't take anything he posts seriously, because it's so biased and agenda-driven. That's why I didn't bother to respond.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011 

Post#1083 » by andrewww » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:16 am

therealbig3 wrote:
andrewww wrote:When you have an epic post by a new poster that goes almost completely ignored by everyone


Just to respond to this point, that guy is not a new poster. He's had countless screen names here before, and he's the kind of guy that gives you objective Kobe fans a bad name, and why maybe some people might be slanted against Kobe (I try not to be).

As for his post, if I'm going to be honest as to why I ignored it: it's the same exact **** he's been posting forever, that in reality was pretty thin on new information and was just repeating the same old stat lines that we're all familiar with already...this time, he just recycled everything into one post and that's why it looked "epic". And the funniest thing about that post...the guy HATES RAPM, and yet used selective years of RAPM that make Kobe look as good as possible as part of his evidence.

I don't speak for everyone, but for me personally, I can't take anything he posts seriously, because it's so biased and agenda-driven. That's why I didn't bother to respond.


You sound like you're onto something correctly, but even though some of the information he stated was exaggerated which I caught on right away (eg. easily top 2 player the league in 2002), there was a lot more truth in his back up than what others ignorantly dismissing have preached.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#1084 » by PaulieWal » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:20 am

andrewww wrote:snip....


You are the second or third poster to quote me because I thought Kobe would get voted in around the 10 or 11 spot. I have him at 10 personally on my list and would have voted for him already if I were participating. I know you guys are not directing your rants towards me and are using my prediction as a platform for your comment(s). I am also seeing Kobe fans who think he should have been voted in already getting a little uneasy and there is some tension but to me this project is still a good learning experience. For example, I still wouldn't have KG at 11 but after learning a lot about him in this project I have him in my top 15 instead of top 20 where he originally was. Ignore the obvious trolls or posters with agendas, that's all I can say :dontknow:.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#1085 » by andrewww » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:28 am

PaulieWal wrote:
andrewww wrote:snip....


You are the second or third poster to quote me because I thought Kobe would get voted in around the 10 or 11 spot. I have him at 10 personally on my list and would have voted for him already if I were participating. I know you guys are not directing your rants towards me and are using my prediction as a platform for your comment(s). I am also seeing Kobe fans who think he should have been voted in already getting a little uneasy and there is some tension but to me this project is still a good learning experience. For example, I still wouldn't have KG at 11 but after learning a lot about him in this project I have him in my top 15 instead of top 20 where he originally was. Ignore the obvious trolls or posters with agendas, that's all I can say :dontknow:.


Trying to ignore only goes so far, and we both know that.

He is the most hated player in perhaps NBA history (as illustrated by the flagship NBA forum that is realgm), and let's be honest LeBron has nothing on him with regards to the number of people who will go to incredible lengths to discredit him.

The arguments I've heard...simply put, he can't win. When he doesn't shoot, they say he's pouting. When he shoots, he's a ballhog. When his team dominates, it's because of Shaq/Phil/Pau. When he's widely acknowledged as the best player in the league with his true peak between 2006-2008, revisionist theory says he was never even the best player in the league at any point in time (let's just say even current LeBron would be nowhere the unanimous best player in the league if he was playing in the same era as prime Shaq or Duncan). When Phil wants him to shoot more in 2006, he gets criticized for shooting too much. When he tones down his scoring in those same 2006 playoffs as per Phil's game plan, he gets called out for not being as dominant as his RS numbers would suggest. When he's widely regarded as one of the best perimeter man to man defenders around 2000-2003, revisionist theory says he was even worse on defense than Bird (who's perceived lack of defense is offset by his basketball IQ imo) and is a horrible defender. When he has longevity, then somehow his production and subpar (yet better than Malone) playoff numbers aren't good enough.

Rinse and repeat.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#1086 » by PaulieWal » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:44 am

andrewww wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
andrewww wrote:snip....


You are the second or third poster to quote me because I thought Kobe would get voted in around the 10 or 11 spot. I have him at 10 personally on my list and would have voted for him already if I were participating. I know you guys are not directing your rants towards me and are using my prediction as a platform for your comment(s). I am also seeing Kobe fans who think he should have been voted in already getting a little uneasy and there is some tension but to me this project is still a good learning experience. For example, I still wouldn't have KG at 11 but after learning a lot about him in this project I have him in my top 15 instead of top 20 where he originally was. Ignore the obvious trolls or posters with agendas, that's all I can say :dontknow:.


Trying to ignore only goes so far, and we both know that.

He is the most hated player in perhaps NBA history (as illustrated by the flagship NBA forum that is realgm), and let's be honest LeBron has nothing on him with regards to the number of people who will go to incredible lengths to discredit him.

The arguments I've heard...simply put, he can't win. When he doesn't shoot, they say he's pouting. When he shoots, he's a ballhog. When his team dominates, it's because of Shaq/Phil/Pau. When he's widely acknowledged as the best player in the league with his true peak between 2006-2008, revisionist theory says he was never even the best player in the league at any point in time (let's just say even current LeBron would be nowhere the unanimous best player in the league if he was playing in the same era as prime Shaq or Duncan). When Phil wants him to shoot more in 2006, he gets criticized for shooting too much. When he tones down his scoring in those same 2006 playoffs as per Phil's game plan, he gets called out for not being as dominant as his RS numbers would suggest. When he's widely regarded as one of the best perimeter man to man defenders around 2000-2003, revisionist theory says he was even worse on defense than Bird (who's perceived lack of defense is offset by his basketball IQ imo) and is a horrible defender. When he has longevity, then somehow his production and subpar (yet better than Malone) playoff numbers aren't good enough.

Rinse and repeat.


Not sure what LeBron has to do with it. I also disagree that he is the "most hated player in perhaps NBA history". Just go check out the GB. There is a dedicated army of Kobe fans saying that he is a top 5 player and a few go as far as to say he is the GOAT. Look, this is a small panel. How many people are voting per slot? 30-40? If that....

While this project is a great learning experience it is also an extremely small sample of the posters on the PC board. At this point you might be better served posting your rants in the main discussion threads. I am not even a voter, not much I can do.

As for some of your concerns, I did raise them last night here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1338083&p=40804233#p40804233

That's all I can do as non-voter.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#1087 » by Reservoirdawgs » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:29 pm

andrewww wrote:
There's just a lot of what appears to be open-mind discussion, but in reality some posters are simply looking for a narrative that suits them and they'll use it as they see fit depending on how much they like a certain candidate, it's that simple.


Based on your posts, I get the sense you're getting frustrated because "your person" isn't getting voted in and you are looking for reasons as to why that is the case and falling on "well, everyone hates Kobe so he's not getting a fair shake". Clearly there are some posters who have an agenda against Kobe, namely Baller and he's being ignored for the most part and his hypocrisy has been pointed out. There are also posters who have an agenda FOR Kobe (as they have admitted during the project) and I don't see you ragging on them. So I actually agree with you somewhat...some posters have indeed shown that they are looking for a narrative that suits them on whether or not they like a candidate. Anti-Kobe people have it and pro-Kobe people have it and it has shown, just not to the degree that you believe it is.

You're obviously determined to believe that everyone is against Kobe simply because it's Kobe and not because of the arguments for/against other players. I think that's short-sighted and being overly dramatic because things aren't going the way you clearly want them to go/believe they should go. I didn't expect Garnett to rise into my own personal Top 10, but the people making arguments for Garnett did an absolutely incredible job of combining qualitative and quantitative points that sold it for me. The discussion has been absolutely valuable, and I look forward to hearing more about it.

The point of this project is to inspire discussion so we can learn more about players, learn more about metrics, and learn more about the game of basketball. The rankings are simply something that comes at the end and, in my mind, is the least important aspect of it.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011 

Post#1088 » by ardee » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:01 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
andrewww wrote:When you have an epic post by a new poster that goes almost completely ignored by everyone


As for his post, if I'm going to be honest as to why I ignored it: it's the same exact **** he's been posting forever, that in reality was pretty thin on new information and was just repeating the same old stat lines that we're all familiar with already...this time, he just recycled everything into one post and that's why it looked "epic"
. And the funniest thing about that post...the guy HATES RAPM, and yet used selective years of RAPM that make Kobe look as good as possible as part of his evidence.

I don't speak for everyone, but for me personally, I can't take anything he posts seriously, because it's so biased and agenda-driven. That's why I didn't bother to respond.


Then what about Baller2014? He's GilmoreFan, and is recycling the same crap he's been spouting off since the last project and in the 5/6 accounts he's been banned in since then. I don't see you complaining about him.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#1089 » by ardee » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:03 pm

Reservoirdawgs wrote: The rankings are simply something that comes at the end and, in my mind, is the least important aspect of it.


If that's what you choose to believe....
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011 

Post#1090 » by MisterHibachi » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:05 pm

Voters really should've declared their criteria before the project. Putting it in written form can influence people to stick to that criteria and remain consistent throughout. Right now, I barely know anyone's criteria and they can easily change it player to player.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#1091 » by Reservoirdawgs » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:32 pm

ardee wrote:
If that's what you choose to believe....


Oh don't worry, I am well aware that some people missed the point of the project and only care about the rankings and where "their" player lands...to the point that they even start whining and complaining like an immature child who doesn't get their way in unrelated threads. I think it's unfortunate for them but it's not something that I concern myself with as I have found the overall discussion to be great.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011 

Post#1092 » by Reservoirdawgs » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:38 pm

ardee wrote:
Then what about Baller2014? He's GilmoreFan, and is recycling the same crap he's been spouting off since the last project and in the 5/6 accounts he's been banned in since then. I don't see you complaining about him.


I'm obviously not thereal, but I don't understand the point of this comment. The only reason that thereal brought up the other poster was to give context to a misinformed andrewww about why an "epic" post was ignored (because everyone who frequents the PC Board knows who the guy is, has seen the arguments already, and ignores the guy because he's a troll). Trolls are better off being ignored, which I and many others have done for the most part with Baller and others in (and out) of the project.

However, this very day I see thereal made a comment about Baller. You can go to the bottom of the page to see it.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1338083&p=40812563#p40812563

So you would be incorrect about his hypocrisy not being pointed out.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011 

Post#1093 » by john248 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:45 pm

Reservoirdawgs wrote:Trolls are better off being ignored, which I and many others have done for the most part with Baller and others in (and out) of the project.

However, this very day I see thereal made a comment about Baller. You can go to the bottom of the page to see it.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1338083&p=40812563#p40812563

So you would be incorrect about his hypocrisy not being pointed out.


Man...people don't ignore this guy enough! :lol: They keep getting sucked into the troll vortex. lol

I generally gloss over a number of posts by certain people on this forum and in this project. I'm also not sure why some are so invested as to where a player is ranked. The voting panel AND criteria is a bit arbitrary, so I can't really concern myself if player A gets voted 5 spots early or later than what I feel.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011 

Post#1094 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:19 pm

Look, everyone has posters who annoy them. The posts baller2014 got called out on were ones where he was arguing with me. BUT . . . as I have told several posters, DONT CALL OUT OTHER POSTERS (either by name or by clearly implying that the specific poster is an idiot). Feel free to post truth to counter bull, but leave the personal attacks out of it. IF you keep it up, you will be asked to withdraw from the project.

Why are you posting this in the 2011 thread anyway? (DONT ANSWER, JUST STOP)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#1095 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:35 pm

andrewww wrote:
There are many reasonable posters who may view him in lower regard which is fine, but there's a select number of posters (Baller2014, Magicmerl, Moonbeam, RayBan-Sematra, Chuck Texas) who will probably never vote for him at any point. He is the least favourite player of Chuck Texas, Moonbeam, as they've both gone on the record and declared that. Just look at Chuck Texas' candidate list for the 12th spot...and he can correct me if I'm wrong but he had in the 11th slot candidates he'd be voting as KG/Oscar/West/Erving/Dirk/Barkley?/Admiral. Take that for what it's worth. For the record, I believe him to be one of the better posters overall but even he is not imune to bias as he's openly admitted to that possibility.
.


What exactly are you accusing me of? Having an open mind? Being honest that I have biases? Being a fan and not just a stat-cruncher? Im trying my best to be objective while admitting how difficult it is to be completely so and being very open about potential issues. What more can I do?

Also I don't believe I've ever stated that Kobe is my least favorite player ever(tho he's among them). But I've made plenty of pro-Kobe posts, pro-Mailman posts(I don't like him either) and tons of pro-Duncan posts(him neither) and voted for KG over Dirk for the first time ever(and we all know I feel about those 2)

I don't really appreciate being called into any kind of question and I definitely don't like that you didn't come direct to me about it if you honestly think I have some kind of anti-Kobe bias. Not to toot my own horn too much but I actually think the project would be better served if more guys were like me and willing to talk about their fanhood as opposed to it being obvious while hiding beneath a sheer veneer of objectivity.

Heck, the few pro-Dirk posts I've made I've included an obvious disclaimer and have openly discussed some negative things about Dirk in all of them.
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