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RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

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Post#706 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:01 pm by Doctor MJ

Lightning25 wrote:I also say that some of those threads extended and had as many pages as it did because people were discussing who to nominate next. I think I've seen threads where the entire topic was on who to nominate rather than who to vote for.

I mean similar to the peak project people would like to know which players should come up next and ideas on who to vote for. However, an entire thread shouldn't be filled with talking about who should be nominated.


If conversation happens about a player, who cares if its about nomination or enshrinement? The criteria for nomination is exactly the same as the criteria for enshrinement. We're talking about basically the exact same conversation being able to happen in both place. Now in practice people don't simply repeat themselves of course, which is all the more a good thing, because it means that any continued debate means new points to some degree.

So I still don't get your perspective. What is it exactly you are afraid that happens with the two-pronged approach?
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Post#707 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:48 am by ardee

We really should do another list in the summer of 2013 :D
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#708 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:12 pm by MacGill

ardee wrote:We really should do another list in the summer of 2013 :D


I would like to take part in the next project although I always have to balance work along with it.

However, new information and arguments have been presented, even since the last 100 list to me, so I could see some definite shifting here.
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Post#709 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:51 pm by JordansBulls

ardee wrote:We really should do another list in the summer of 2013 :D

I'd say 2014. Not that many players have done enough for the list to change that much. Only guy who probably moves up a bit is Lebron. Wade was already voted #22, so he can move up to maybe 18 or so. The only other guy who moves up signficantly is Kevin Durant and maybe Derrick Rose as neither were on the list in 2011.
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Post#710 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:03 pm by ardee

JordansBulls wrote:
ardee wrote:We really should do another list in the summer of 2013 :D

I'd say 2014. Not that many players have done enough for the list to change that much. Only guy who probably moves up a bit is Lebron. Wade was already voted #22, so he can move up to maybe 18 or so. The only other guy who moves up signficantly is Kevin Durant and maybe Derrick Rose as neither were on the list in 2011.


It's not only about the moving up or down, don't you think it's also about our new views on players and different ways to judge them?

Oh and I think Tony Parker should definitely be on the list if he has another season like last year.
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#711 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Thu Nov 1, 2012 1:41 am by Doctor MJ

ardee wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
ardee wrote:We really should do another list in the summer of 2013 :D

I'd say 2014. Not that many players have done enough for the list to change that much. Only guy who probably moves up a bit is Lebron. Wade was already voted #22, so he can move up to maybe 18 or so. The only other guy who moves up signficantly is Kevin Durant and maybe Derrick Rose as neither were on the list in 2011.


It's not only about the moving up or down, don't you think it's also about our new views on players and different ways to judge them?

Oh and I think Tony Parker should definitely be on the list if he has another season like last year.


Yes but you also have to look at the passion bucket. As we go through these big project, people get tired, and passion wanes. I think it takes some time to build back up, and this is related to why there is less enthusiasm for the current project.

We'll see what happens. I'll participate in a Top 100 project next summer if someone I think can pull it off is running it, but I wouldn't run it myself.
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Post#712 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Thu Nov 1, 2012 2:02 pm by MacGill

Doctor MJ wrote: Yes but you also have to look at the passion bucket. As we go through these big project, people get tired, and passion wanes. I think it takes some time to build back up, and this is related to why there is less enthusiasm for the current project.

We'll see what happens. I'll participate in a Top 100 project next summer if someone I think can pull it off is running it, but I wouldn't run it myself.


All I heard in Charlie Brown teacher voice was Ardee volunteering to make it happen ;)

Although you didn't hear it from me 8-)
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Post#713 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Thu Nov 8, 2012 11:03 am by Laimbeer

Re-doing the list so often would pretty much prove we put too much emphasis on recent accomplishments. One season shouldn't make for many dramatic changes. Every three years is probably about right, you could go five.
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Post#714 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Fri Nov 9, 2012 11:04 am by ardee

MacGill wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote: Yes but you also have to look at the passion bucket. As we go through these big project, people get tired, and passion wanes. I think it takes some time to build back up, and this is related to why there is less enthusiasm for the current project.

We'll see what happens. I'll participate in a Top 100 project next summer if someone I think can pull it off is running it, but I wouldn't run it myself.


All I heard in Charlie Brown teacher voice was Ardee volunteering to make it happen ;)

Although you didn't hear it from me 8-)


I'll be completely free until university begins in September. I doubt it'll be a three-month project, considering the last one ran until January, but I'd give it a shot :D I think penbeast would be the ideal choice though if Doc can't.
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#715 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Fri Nov 9, 2012 2:10 pm by JordansBulls

Laimbeer wrote:Re-doing the list so often would pretty much prove we put too much emphasis on recent accomplishments. One season shouldn't make for many dramatic changes. Every three years is probably about right, you could go five.

Or just do it like the Olympics or presendential elections every 4 years.
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Post#716 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:51 am by penbeast0

I'd rather do the GOAT coaches list again . . . been a few years for that; and another GOAT team playoff series which was a lot of fun and, unlike the lists, doesn't suffer from enthusiasm as it moves toward the end as much.

But those are offseason projects. Who knows? And we have rrravenred on board now who will have a new perspective and new ideas. :)
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Post#717 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:28 pm by ardee

penbeast0 wrote:I'd rather do the GOAT coaches list again . . . been a few years for that; and another GOAT team playoff series which was a lot of fun and, unlike the lists, doesn't suffer from enthusiasm as it moves toward the end as much.

But those are offseason projects. Who knows? And we have rrravenred on board now who will have a new perspective and new ideas. :)


I really think a Retro OPOY/DOPY is the way to go, there'd be a lot of perspective and new information to be gained from that.
SSOL

G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#718 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:58 pm by Deus-DaRkJaWs

What's the point? all you're doing with this project is seeing who can influence who in determining what ranking someone should get, and those influences can be completely wrong. even worse, you guys are influenced by your personal biases and act like you're being objective. I personally think we should not be allowed to talk about any player post 1990, and only allowed to debate players from before then. Why? Because the current generation of players are already getting the benefit from younger (and dumber) fans, the ones we need to talk about are the older players. Point is, we've already seen this generation of players, and everyone has their own opinion based on what their eyes saw, we don't need advanced statistics or an accurate story to have a rating, I'd much rather depend on everyone's subjective rankings because then you know their biases loud and clear. It doesn't matter whether the list is only a subjective ranking, because that's all that it can be. To think this Top 100 list can possibly be objective is laughable, as is the notion that if you do it again it might tell us something different about the players.
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Post#719 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:09 pm by Doctor MJ

Deus-DaRkJaWs wrote:What's the point? all you're doing with this project is seeing who can influence who in determining what ranking someone should get, and those influences can be completely wrong. even worse, you guys are influenced by your personal biases and act like you're being objective. I personally think we should not be allowed to talk about any player post 1990, and only allowed to debate players from before then. Why? Because the current generation of players are already getting the benefit from younger (and dumber) fans, the ones we need to talk about are the older players. Point is, we've already seen this generation of players, and everyone has their own opinion based on what their eyes saw, we don't need advanced statistics or an accurate story to have a rating, I'd much rather depend on everyone's subjective rankings because then you know their biases loud and clear. It doesn't matter whether the list is only a subjective ranking, because that's all that it can be. To think this Top 100 list can possibly be objective is laughable, as is the notion that if you do it again it might tell us something different about the players.


The reality that people do care overly much about the actual rankings is not in dispute. It's a problem, in the sense that I wish that weren't the case, but not a very big one. What exactly are the consequences of this issue?

Beyond that, I suppose what stands out to me most about you is how you completely dismiss facts as if they are someone something that gets in the way of something else that is somehow more important to you. It's pretty insane.

I mean I understand that you basically don't trust stats at all, but you added "an accurate story" to the things that we don't need. It seems to me like an ideal discussion for you would involve nothing more relishing in mythology, and this to me seems entirely pointless as far as it relates to a project of this scale.

Clearly my perspective of what can get accomplished by these projects is very different. For me the point is education, and certainly not simply the education of others. The fact that what I learn cannot always be known to be absolutely true does not make the education impossible. Were that the case there would never be any point to really any form of education. And indeed, when I hear you talk, and see how badly you miss the point of what we do here, I do wonder at just what else in life you take such a vicious stand on. How many other areas do you develop a hardline opinion on so earlier in your educational process that you aren't even close to really understanding the actual debate?

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In 2014
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Post#720 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Jan 7, 2013 2:49 am by therealbig3

So, I have to say, I'm thinking Dwight Howard was seriously overrated both here and in the peaks project, myself included. His portability and his defense has been overstated, based on what we've seen from him this season so far. And his offense is really not that impressive imo. And looking at Orlando, they haven't completely fallen apart without him like many expected they would. Their defense has actually held up admirably, 14th so far.

So, thoughts on Dwight after considering Orlando's and Los Angeles's seasons?

I do understand that he's still not 100% physically, but I figured an 80% Dwight Howard would be better than this.
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Post#721 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Jan 7, 2013 4:10 am by ronnymac2

I don't know man. It's not just that Dwight is at 80 percent health right now. It's also that Dwight is being used in an odd way, and he has less support than he did in Orlando (in certain ways). So what you're seeing is Dwight at like, 60 percent of his normal effectiveness.

Offensively, Dwight used to be a monster on the pick-n-roll by sucking the defenders of corner 3-pointer shooters in. That would open things up from the perimeter. Then Dwight would have 1 vs. 1 coverage on a few iso's per game. Dwight isn't as limited offensively 1 vs. 1 as many still think.

Thing is, the Lakers don't use him for that as much. They have terrible spacing, so his iso's are more difficult, and with worse mobility and rhythm, he's turning the ball over a lot.

This is my issue with the Lakers: Kobe Bryant has been incredibly efficient this season, and the Lakers offense isn't directly the problem. However, I think they can improve the offense. I think they should give Nash the keys and let him play pick-n-roll with Howard. Let him do the same with Pau while using Howard as a finisher threat (similar to how the Nash/Amare pick-n-roll worked with Shaq as a finisher threat back in 2008 or 2009 or whatever it was). Nash can get the bigs involved in a way that Kobe cannot (not hating on Kobe, but Nash is an elite distributor).

This would allow Kobe to pick his spots and still play off other people and attack. I think this is a more sustainable model for Kobe, and it should allow him to have more energy on defense as well.

This makes better use of Howard in that it puts Dwight in a better position to score on quick hits, meaning defenses don't have as much time to react and force a turnover or tough shot.


Defensively, Howard and World Peace are out there by themselves. The Lakers have no bench defense, Gasol is horrendous defending at the PF position, and Nash and Kobe are below average defenders at this point. SVG had a nice system built around a healthy all-time defensive anchor in Dwight. Pringles doesn't emphasize defense, the Lakers have one other solid defender on the team beside an 80 percent health Howard. The Lakers defense is worse than the team D rating indicates.

I'm predicting the Lakers finish with an ultra-powerful offense. I think they'll finish with an average defense which will be misleading, because I think come playoff time, when teams can hone in on weaknesses, the Lakers D will get picked apart in embarrassing fashion. I don't think the Lakers have any chance of making it out of the West.



Long story short: The fact that Dwight is putting up 17/12 on good efficiency and with good defense is an indicator to me that 39th on this list for a 100 percent Howard is fair.
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Post#722 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Jan 7, 2013 4:30 am by Doormatt

ronnymac2 wrote:I don't know man. It's not just that Dwight is at 80 percent health right now. It's also that Dwight is being used in an odd way, and he has less support than he did in Orlando (in certain ways). So what you're seeing is Dwight at like, 60 percent of his normal effectiveness.

Offensively, Dwight used to be a monster on the pick-n-roll by sucking the defenders of corner 3-pointer shooters in. That would open things up from the perimeter. Then Dwight would have 1 vs. 1 coverage on a few iso's per game. Dwight isn't as limited offensively 1 vs. 1 as many still think.

Thing is, the Lakers don't use him for that as much. They have terrible spacing, so his iso's are more difficult, and with worse mobility and rhythm, he's turning the ball over a lot.

This is my issue with the Lakers: Kobe Bryant has been incredibly efficient this season, and the Lakers offense isn't directly the problem. However, I think they can improve the offense. I think they should give Nash the keys and let him play pick-n-roll with Howard. Let him do the same with Pau while using Howard as a finisher threat (similar to how the Nash/Amare pick-n-roll worked with Shaq as a finisher threat back in 2008 or 2009 or whatever it was). Nash can get the bigs involved in a way that Kobe cannot (not hating on Kobe, but Nash is an elite distributor).

This would allow Kobe to pick his spots and still play off other people and attack. I think this is a more sustainable model for Kobe, and it should allow him to have more energy on defense as well.

This makes better use of Howard in that it puts Dwight in a better position to score on quick hits, meaning defenses don't have as much time to react and force a turnover or tough shot.


Defensively, Howard and World Peace are out there by themselves. The Lakers have no bench defense, Gasol is horrendous defending at the PF position, and Nash and Kobe are below average defenders at this point. SVG had a nice system built around a healthy all-time defensive anchor in Dwight. Pringles doesn't emphasize defense, the Lakers have one other solid defender on the team beside an 80 percent health Howard. The Lakers defense is worse than the team D rating indicates.

I'm predicting the Lakers finish with an ultra-powerful offense. I think they'll finish with an average defense which will be misleading, because I think come playoff time, when teams can hone in on weaknesses, the Lakers D will get picked apart in embarrassing fashion. I don't think the Lakers have any chance of making it out of the West.



Long story short: The fact that Dwight is putting up 17/12 on good efficiency and with good defense is an indicator to me that 39th on this list for a 100 percent Howard is fair.


wonderfully stated. everything in this post is spot on from what ive seen from the lakers. also to add on to their defensive woes, its especially terrible because they force no turnovers and exert basically zero pressure on the opponents ball handlers. they dont really communicate that well or either dont have much practice defensively. today there was a play where nash thought kobe was going to switch onto lawson but he didnt so they both gave him up, nobody rotated, and they gave up a wide open layup. kind of the perfect summation of the lakers defense thus far. that and their 3 primary ball handlers, iggy, lawson and miller, combined for 27 assists with just TWO turnovers. so the lakers defensive problems really have nothing to do with dwight, although he could be better.
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Post#723 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Jan 7, 2013 4:43 pm by ElGee

therealbig3 wrote:So, I have to say, I'm thinking Dwight Howard was seriously overrated both here and in the peaks project, myself included. His portability and his defense has been overstated, based on what we've seen from him this season so far. And his offense is really not that impressive imo. And looking at Orlando, they haven't completely fallen apart without him like many expected they would. Their defense has actually held up admirably, 14th so far.

So, thoughts on Dwight after considering Orlando's and Los Angeles's seasons?

I do understand that he's still not 100% physically, but I figured an 80% Dwight Howard would be better than this.


Yeah you have to watch to understand the issues.

First, Bryant's still ridiculously skilled one-on-one, but he has to work harder than ever to overcome his athletic decline to get shots. Probably as a result of this, he's jacking up shots the second he gets any breathing room because it's such a relief for him to have space these days. 26 shots and 33.5% USG over the last 10 games isn't optimal on any team...but whether you think that's sustainable or not, the issue really has to do with translating to defense.

Lots of one-on-one, long iso jumpers and the cluttered basketball that can result are killing LA in transition defense. Curious, I checked the fastbreak defense stats and the Lakers are DEAD last, at 15.9 ppg in transition (at nearly 2 ppp). Bryant's somewhat incredible efficiency has helped LA's offense thus far, but the tradeoff looks far worse to me -- I'd rather he exert way more energy on defense and be used as an off-ball threat on offense (he is a well above-average spot-up shooter), and allow the transition defense to set better as the offensive floor is balanced. This is something, ironically, Phil Jackson heavily emphasized in the triangle.

The team has other issues, of course, like health and coaching transitions (why is Mike Brown's staff still there?). But Howard is not to blame for the transition defense. His turnovers on offense also inflate that number, but as ronnymac said, he's being used in a cluttered manner and not in as many Tyson Chandler-spots. And the guy still isn't moving well -- he looks stiff and like he's quick sand a bit.

For perspective, how much does 3 turnovers leading to easy (~2 ppp) buckets on the other end impact the DRtg and the SRS? It's about 3 points a game difference, which would mean the Lakers would have a predicted record of about 22-11 right now, with about the 8th or 9th-best defense in the league.

To summarize, offense impact defense/transition D, Howard's health and some otherwise clunky defensive schemes (there's a LOT of pointing fingers after giving up wide open layups from breakdowns on backside help) are heavily influencing the defensive numbers and thus the SRS of this team. I don't much see it as indictment on 2005-2012 Howard at all, since he's not health and playing with a team that's a mess on defense, starting with its own offensive scheme.
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Post#724 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Mon Jan 7, 2013 6:16 pm by MacGill

Well said Ronnymac & ElGee.

When this trade went down I said the immediate future of LA goes on how Kobe responds to the new additions. At that time I stated that Kobe needed to let the offence go through Nash/Howard and even get Pau many more easy buckets. 20-22ppg while using more energy defensively. Team dynamic has seen Kobe resort back to universal solider mode.

And in a sense I do not blame Kobe, as Dwight still doesn't appear to be 100% healthy but this is the part as pointed out where he needs to trust in his peer stars and get others more involved, even if it means a loss. It has nothing to do with how efficient or great individually a season Bryant is having but if LA makes the playoffs, this formula will not do well and their fitment will see an early first round exit.

I have watched quite a few LA games this year and Kobe could use his high BballIQ to get his at the expense of not needing the ball as he gets it. It certainly doesn't help when others aren't making theirs (hence why I don't blame him going back to what he always did) but he isn't able to shoulder the load alone and needs himself to help make the change to get more players touches.

At this point, it isn't even about the losses which are coming anyway, it is for the betterment of the team. I think Dwight is feeling the pressure something I did not think early on he would be able to handle and Nash has to be set free. There are players on that team that can still run, including Kobe but it is amazing what some easy looks to the basket etc can do for health problems and guys who just look like they don't even want to ball.
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Post#725 Re: RealGM Top 100 List
Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:19 pm by therealbig3

Ok, other internal debates I've been having, wondering what other people think:

Kobe vs Bird...Kobe's got some very nice longevity going for him right now...a 10 year prime imo (01-10), and then he's got 5 other years during which he's still one of the best players in the league, but not in his prime (99, 00, 11, 12, 13). Bird had a 7 year prime (82-88), and 5 other years during which he's still one of the best players in the league, but not in his prime (80, 81, 90, 91, 92)...but he barely played in 92. Anyway, we can all agree that Bird at his best was better than Kobe at his best, but Kobe has 3 more years in terms of prime longevity, and he's healthier and probably ranks higher among the game's elite during his last 3 non-prime years than Bird did from 90-92.

KG vs Bird...similar to Kobe's argument, and KG's peak is closer to Bird's. And since many people consider Duncan vs Bird a legitimate debate, and since many of those same people also consider KG and Duncan pretty much equals...wouldn't it logically make sense to consider KG vs Bird as well?

And finally...does Duncan's season so far have any effect on how people view him all time, similar to how KG's 2011 and 2012 seasons seriously impressed some people?
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