RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2

[Baller 24]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Julius Erving

NBA Champion (1983)
2× ABA Champion (1974, 1976)
2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1981)
3× ABA Most Valuable Player (1974–1976)
11× NBA All-Star (1977–1987)
5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
5× All-NBA First Team (1978, 1980–1983)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1977, 1984)
4× All-ABA First Team (1973–1976)
All-ABA Second Team (1972)
ABA All-Defensive First Team (1976)
ABA All-Rookie First Team (1972)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
ABA All-Time Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Wilt Chamberlain

* 2x NBA champion (1967, 1972)
* 4x NBA MVP (1960, 1966-1968)
* 13x NBA All-Star (1960-1969, 1971-1973)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1972)
* 7x All-NBA First Team Selection (1960-1962, 1964, 1966-1968)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1963, 1965, 1972)
* 2x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1972-1973)
* 1960 NBA Rookie of the Year
* 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1960)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* NBA 35th Anniversary Team

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

# 6x NBA Champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988
# 6x NBA MVP (1971-1972, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980)
# 19x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
# 10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1971-1973, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980-1981, 1984, 1986)
# 5x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970, 1978-1979, 1983, 1985)
# 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1974-1975, 1979-1981)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1970-1971, 1976-1978, 1984)
# 1970 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1970 NBA All-Rookie Team
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Bill Russell

* 11x NBA Champion (1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969)
* 5x NBA MVP (1958, 1961-1963, 1965)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1958-1969)
* 3x All-NBA First Team Selection (1959, 1963, 1965)
* 8x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1958, 1960-1962, 1964, 1966-1968)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1969)
* 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* NBA 35th Anniversary Team
* NBA 25th Anniversary Team

Magic Johnson


* 5× NBA Champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
* 3× NBA MVP (1987, 1989–1990)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1983–1991)
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1982)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
* 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Larry Bird

# 3x NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
# 3x NBA MVP (1984-1986)
# 12x All-Star (1980-1988, 1990-1992)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
# 9x All-NBA First Team Selection (1980-1988)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1990)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1982-1984)
# 1980 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
# 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1982)
# 3x NBA Three-Point Shootout winner (1986-1988)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Shaquille O'Neal

*4-time NBA Champion
*2000 NBA MVP
*92-'93 NBA Rookie of the Year
*3-time NBA Finals MVP
*3-time All-Star MVP
*14-time All-Star
*7 time All NBA First Team
*2 time All NBA Second Team
*3 time All NBA Third Team
*3 time All NBA Second Defensive Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Tim Duncan

4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)
Hakeem Olajuwon

* 2x NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
* 1x NBA MVP (1994)
* 12x All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
* 2x Finals MVP (1994-1995)
* 2x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
* 6x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
* 3x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
* 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
* 4x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)
* 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Kobe Bryant

5× NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007)
9× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)

[Fencer reregistered]

I hate that picture of Kareem. It's perhaps the first time in my life that I've thought an African or African-American actually DOES look like a monkey.

Of course, that's an indictment of 1970s hairstyles more than anything else ...

[GilmoreFan]

I know who I'm voting for already, Kareem. He was just a better player than Russell or Wilt for mine, for a longer period of time. If it comes down to a long argument I'll get into reasons, but everyone knows them. I've got Russell at #4, and I struggle at times to keep him that high (and yes, I've read the RPOY threads), and that's who most everyone else will be voting for.

I nominate Moses Malone, who I have 11th overall anyway, and who is getting pretty underrated. At his peak Moses was regarded as similar to a still prime Kareem. No, he wasn't actually as good, but that tells you how people thought of him. He should be up now that Erving is in.

[Fencer reregistered]

Russell over Kareem, and I'm wavering about having Kareem even as high as #3.

Russell was one of the great transformational players in the game -- defense, race, and more. As for ability, we have stunning defense, stunning rebounding, and awesome passing. His scoring was admittedly more problematic. For intangibles we have stunning leadership.

As for how well he'd translate to the modern game, we've discussed that in other threads. Mobile defense still counts for a lot. Shotblocking and shot alteration count for a lot. Great outlet passing would count for a lot if anybody still did it. Great halfcourt passing still counts for a lot, even if few big men still do it. He'd be a significantly more efficient scorer in this era just due to its dunk-friendliness alone. And any story you can tell that makes his skills less important on defense also frees up more energy for him to be more effective on offense.

[drza]

I look forward to reading and hopefully participating in discussion in this thread, but right now I think both my vote and nomination are easy.

Vote: Bill Russell
Nomination: Kevin Garnett

[GilmoreFan]

You know, now that we're past #1, I'm beginning to think there could be a problem as this goes on with plurality voting. I guess it's too late now, but it might be in order to get some preferential voting going, to prevent this turning into the UK electoral system. Otherwise once things get really hairy you'll have a situation where a guy with maybe 10 votes out of 37 gets up, just because the other 27 are split on other guys.

[Vinsanity420]

So why is KG just getting nominated when he's good enough to get the #2 vote?

[JordansBulls]

This comes down to Kareem and Russell for me and in the first thread they were neck and neck for most first place votes with Russell with 6 votes and Kareem 5 votes.

Russell dominated in his time defensively, but Kareem dominated both ends of the floor. Russell won more and Kareem had better numbers, but overall Kareem had the stats, accolades, productively and rings as well. Just feel if you have all of them you have to be near the top but Russell's intangibles make it more interesting.

Vote: Kareem

For Nomination I am going with Moses Malone. A 3x MVP and 1x Finals MVP winner.

[JordansBulls]

So why is KG just getting nominated when he's good enough to get the #2 vote?

Who said that? No one voted KG for the #2. He isn't even on the list yet.

[Vinsanity420]

So why is KG just getting nominated when he's good enough to get the #2 vote?

Who said that? No one voted KG for the #2. He isn't even on the list yet.

Continuing this discussion from our last thread -

He was dominant in his own era, but across other eras, I just feel he falls a little bit short.

I actually do understand this case, somewhat... To play Devil's Advocate a little, how would Russell's defensive impact translate into a an era that favors perimeter players? Why couldn't say, KG do the same as Bill Russell did?

KG like Russell was a dominant defender according to +/-, was just as good of a passer, and a better overall offensive player than Bill Russell. His leadership was on clear display on the 08 Celtics team, where he made the rest of his team think defense and produced one of the best SRS turnarounds in history. So give everything that Russell had to work with to KG, would KG be considered the.... GOAT?

Remember that

1) Garnett's never been an elite shotblocker and Russell's the GOAT at it.

2) While Garnett has strong BBIQ, Russell is literally the only guy in history to player/coach his way to titles.

If you want to say that the offense of Garnett makes up for that though, that's an argument to be made.

And for reference, here are the APM leaders from '03-04 to '08-09:

Code: Select all

Player APM
Garnett 14.07
James    9.50
Ginobili 8.18
Duncan   8.01
Wade     7.99


Garnett's basically the king of +/- in the first years we have it, remains strong until today, and of course when he got moved to a team with supporting talent, the result was the single biggest year-to-year improvement of a team in NBA history and the best SRS since the Jordan era.

Yup, people underrate the guy.

[34Dayz]

Vote: Shaquille O'Neal
Nomination: Oscar Robertson

[Fencer reregistered]

You know, now that we're past #1, I'm beginning to think there could be a problem as this goes on with plurality voting. I guess it's too late now, but it might be in order to get some preferential voting going, to prevent this turning into the UK electoral system. Otherwise once things get really hairy you'll have a situation where a guy with maybe 10 votes out of 37 gets up, just because the other 27 are split on other guys.

If you like, you can start an instant run-off system, as discussed a couple of threads ago, at the time of your choosing but when the discussions here are still fresh. It would be interesting to see how differently the rankings would come out.

Anyhow, my nomination for 12th guy will be a guy who was both MVP/RPOY winner and best player on a championship team. Natural candidates are Garnett and Moses. I'll go Moses, because I could realistically imagine him being selected as high as 12th or so.

[GilmoreFan]

Vote: Shaquille O'Neal
Nomination: Oscar Robertson

Sorry, but you're not on the list of voters, so unless the 2 guys running the project want to extend the vote to you and your 37 posts, this should be disregarded...

[GilmoreFan]

I think if a candidate doesn't have a majority, then those in the minority should recast their votes as between the 2 largest minorities (though no re-voting should be allowed for those who already voted for one of two said candidates). That will stop absurd outcomes like the 10/37 pulling through.

[Doctor MJ]

So why is KG just getting nominated when he's good enough to get the #2 vote?

Well, I don't think he is THAT good.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Bill Russell

I had him and Jordan 1/2, so he gets a Kevin Durant like #2 here. From the last thread

Kareem: The biggest reason I would pick him – In an “All Time Draft”, many of which have been on RealGM, Kareem is usually the smart choice to take #1. He gives you elite offense and defense at the most important position (C) and he plays at an elite level forever. This is a very important aspect to me. If Kareem is the guy you take as a GM starting a team over anyone else, does that mean he has the most valuable career? He’s also one of the few players that would be the best player in the league in literally every era. 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s. He doesn’t lose an inch of impact at any time while Jordan would have more trouble in the 60s (since West and Oscar couldn't win) and Russell in the 90s dominating. Kareem is era proof.

What are Kareem’s weaknesses? He doesn’t have the same “win or die” mentality and teammate impact Russ and Jordan have. That’s big to me. He isn’t as insanely timely, he got beat up by Nate Thurmond and Moses Malone a couple times. To his credit, when he had the teams in the early 70s and early 80s, he won... but he wasn't unbeatable. And that's probably the clincher. I can't put him over Jordan and Russell when those guys went into run the table mode. If you showed them Kareem #1 over them, they'd say "What more should I have done? Put up nicer stats but lose?" Yes, we shouldn't just judge players on titles. But when it comes to determining the greatest player of all time, I have to hand it to the two most unbeatable winners the league has seen.

Kareem had the game, but not as much of a mental grip to lock titles and series down. He did have his big moments, but not as consistently as Russell

One game that should get talked about all the time and doesn't, is his G5 in 1980 - dropping a 40 and 15 despite injuring his ankle in the 3rd and coming back and scoring 14 in the 4th Isiah style - with Erving going insane for Philly and almost taking the game. That game, IMO, is Kareem's "moment" and should get just as much talk as the Flu Game and Magic's Game 6 that year and etc.

Nomination: Jerry West. 9 Finals, clutch, versatile in terms of score/shoot/pass/defend/etc. All around stud who should probably get as much credit as Kobe. I like him more than Oscar due to defense and leadership and success

[rrravenred]

As indicated previously, I'm going with Russell. Even if on "raw" performances he pales slightly (as does pretty much everyone else) to Kareem and Wilt, his ability to multiply the talent on his team and basically impact the court in a way that isn't objectively measurable give him the nod. Russ is one of those players who shines in testimony like few others (only Bird and Magic come close in that area).

For my nomination, I remain fixed on "Mo' Mo' Mo'" Malone.

[34Dayz]

Vote: Shaquille O'Neal
Nomination: Oscar Robertson

Sorry, but you're not on the list of voters, so unless the 2 guys running the project want to extend the vote to you and your 37 posts, this should be disregarded...

Ah sorry... my mistake, I thought anyone could vote.

[Fencer reregistered]

Vote: Shaquille O'Neal
Nomination: Oscar Robertson

Sorry, but you're not on the list of voters, so unless the 2 guys running the project want to extend the vote to you and your 37 posts, this should be disregarded...

Ah sorry... my mistake, I thought anyone could vote.

Baller24 sets the rules.

[Vinsanity420]

So why is KG just getting nominated when he's good enough to get the #2 vote?

Well, I don't think he is THAT good.

Neither do I. I guess the real Q is - how much better of a basketball player is Bill Russell than Kevin Garnett?

I want an answer that does not involve rings or accolades.