RealGM Top 100 List #6

[penbeast0]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems their ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Oscar Robertson

* NBA Champion (1971)
* NBA MVP (1964)
* NBA Rookie of the Year (1961)
* 3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1961, 1964, 1969)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1961-1969)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970-1971)
* 12× All-Star (1961-1972)
* Voted to the HOF in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Jerry West


* NBA Champion (1972)
* NBA Finals MVP (1969)
* 14× All-Star (1961-1974)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1972)
* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1962-1967, 1970-1973)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1968-1969)
* 4X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1970-1973)
* 1X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1969)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Karl Malone


# 2x NBA MVP (1997, 1999)
# 14x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1989, 1993)
# 11x All-NBA First Team Selection (1988-1999)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986-2000)
# 1x All-NBA Third Team Selectin (2001)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1997-1999)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1988)
# 1986 All-Rookie 1st Team
# Elected to the Basketball HOF in 2010 as a player

Moses Malone

* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)


Julius Erving

NBA Champion (1983)
2× ABA Champion (1974, 1976)
2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1981)
3× ABA Most Valuable Player (1974–1976)
11× NBA All-Star (1977–1987)
5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
5× All-NBA First Team (1978, 1980–1983)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1977, 1984)
4× All-ABA First Team (1973–1976)
All-ABA Second Team (1972)
ABA All-Defensive First Team (1976)
ABA All-Rookie First Team (1972)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
ABA All-Time Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Kobe Bryant

5× NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007)
9× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)


Larry Bird

# 3x NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
# 3x NBA MVP (1984-1986)
# 12x All-Star (1980-1988, 1990-1992)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
# 9x All-NBA First Team Selection (1980-1988)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1990)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1982-1984)
# 1980 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
# 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1982)
# 3x NBA Three-Point Shootout winner (1986-1988)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Shaquille O'Neal

*4-time NBA Champion
*2000 NBA MVP
*92-'93 NBA Rookie of the Year
*3-time NBA Finals MVP
*3-time All-Star MVP
*14-time All-Star
*7 time All NBA First Team
*2 time All NBA Second Team
*3 time All NBA Third Team
*3 time All NBA Second Defensive Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Tim Duncan

4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)
Hakeem Olajuwon

* 2x NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
* 1x NBA MVP (1994)
* 12x All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
* 2x Finals MVP (1994-1995)
* 2x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
* 6x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
* 3x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
* 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
* 4x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)
* 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

[Wavy Q]

Vote: Bird

Nominate: KG

and this time i will edit my post with my reasons, was swamped with work this past week.

[Vinsanity420]

It's bizarre how Wilt ended up between Magic and Bird. I still fail to understand how people can separate these two like that... Ah well, this ballot is fairly easy for me.

Vote: Bird
Nominate: KG

[penbeast0]

Tentatively,

Vote Duncan -- Just too great a two way anchor. Not as spectacular as a Bird/West/Erving type but won more with less around him than any of them. I have generally had Shaq here but his act has gotten more than a bit annoying. Very willing to be convinced to to change it back though.

Nominate LeBron -- On the downside, he deferred too much to Wade with the NBA title on the line this year; on the up side, he's even more dominant at wing than Bird and NBA Doc plus he had some spectacular playoff dominance earlier in his career. Others I would consider include Mikan, David Robinson, Garnett, or Walt Frazier.

[JordansBulls]

Similar to my post for #5 since these guys are fairly close.

This is where it gets tricky because you can make a case for anyone know with Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan depending on what you value.

Bird came into a team that the year before wasn't that great, but still he went to a winning franchise that had just won 2 titles in the prior 6 years before he arrived.
Shaq turned Orlando into contenders and then jumped shipped to a winning organization in LA.
Duncan was able to finally put the Spurs over the top but then again he didn't really inherit a terrible team. Sure recordwise he did but that was due to Robinson being out all year the season before. Would have been intestering had a gone somewhere else with no star from the get go.
Hakeem came to the Rockets a team that had the #1 pick th year before and immediately played with a star player for 4 years before that player got injured.
And Kobe went to LA where he was with Shaq who was a top 4 player in the league at the time.

I'm not really sure who to go with right now, but putting together how each won as the man, it is very interesting.

Thus far the top 4 all time that we have voted each of them have at least 3 MVP's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

Here are the MVP shares of these guys.


3. Larry Bird* 5.693
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
9. Tim Duncan 4.205
10. Kobe Bryant 3.763
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.611


Bird has the highest MVP shares here and he finished top 2 on 7x times and top 3 on 8x times.
That's significant because only MJ and Kareem and Russell are tied or ahead of him in finishing that many times in the top 2 and 3 in MVP voting.


Bird 24-7 in series with HCA (has the most losses with HCA but interesting tidbit is 0-3 without it.)
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA
Duncan 21-5 in Series with HCA
Shaq 24-5 in Series with HCA
Kobe 24-2 in series with HC

Vote: Shaq
Nominate: George Mikan

[MacGill]

WOW, I honestly thought there were great points brought up by many posters to have Bird at 5 and the 6-9 spots would be extremely interesting.

Oh well, keep the good discussion going Looks like the Immortal 6 will stay in tact.

[Fencer reregistered]

I was hoping for Bird at #5. So of course I vote for him at #6.

No way serial team-wrecker Shaq should go over Bird (or Duncan). Indeed, it's not obvious to me that Shaq should go over Kobe.

Bird over Duncan for the wow factor, the diversity of skills, the super-good intangibles rather than just nice-and-steady ones, and for the fact that a team he led was better for a while than one headed by #3 and #4 on our list.

Bird over Hakeem for accomplishing more in multiple dimensions.

Garnett for nominee.

[Black Feet]

This one is easy

Vote - Bird

Nominate - KG

[Snakebites]

Vote: Shaq

I've got Shaq here. Other players were more skilled, but not more dominant. Teams in the early 00s weren't taken seriously unless they had an answer to Shaq. Playoff teams loaded up on big men in an attempt to stop him and still fell short, again and again.

His three year peak is on par or better than anyone else on this list, and he has longevity that compares favorably with anyone here.

And honestly, I simply don't consider his tendency to burn bridges and leave on bad terms something that should be considered at all here. It doesn't diminish his impact on the court, and I don't really feel it has a place in this conversation.

Nominate: David Robinson

Same vote as last time, same reasons.

[Gongxi]

I think the only two I'm really considering seriously are Shaq and Bird and would love to read their arguments. I suppose Duncan would be a dark horse.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Duncan

Nominate Garnett

Same as last time for me.

Duncan over Shaq due to regular season health and leadership/intangibles.

I choose Duncan over Bird because of playoff consistency. Bird has years like 82, 83 that should be questioned. 85, while otherwise just about his best year, goes downhill in the last 2 rounds. Duncan is reliable in the playoffs constantly and his defense is always there.

Both deserve to be called top 5 regular season performers ever. Their run of 57 W seasons and guaranteeing statistical contention is remarkable. Both proved they didn't need Parish/McHale or Parker/Manu to guarantee that either. I believe both could have ended up with 5 or 6 titles with a 3peat included if everything went their way. The beauty of both these teams is giving themselves like 9 kicks at the can. So even when injuries, all time clutch shots against, jacked competition got in their way, they had enough years to withstand it and get the breaks back. But my personal feeling is Duncan's consistency gave him a bit more kicks at it and that's why he gets my vote

[ronnymac2]

I've got Shaq here. Other players were more skilled, but not more dominant. Teams in the early 00s weren't taken seriously unless they had an answer to Shaq. Playoff teams loaded up on big men in an attempt to stop him and still fell short, again and again.

His three year peak is on par or better than anyone else on this list, and he has longevity that compares favorably with anyone here.

And honestly, I simply don't consider his tendency to burn bridges and leave on bad terms something that should be considered at all here. It doesn't diminish his impact on the court, and I don't really feel it has a place in this conversation.

The positives always get glossed over for certain players.

I'm extremely proud of the way I've voted so far in light of everything else. Kareem and Wilt were dissected to the point where many posters let the big picture get away from them regarding those two players. I have no problem with the delivery of accurate facts and observations, but the value that certain perceived flaws were given was just too much when it came to posters rating KAJ and Wilt. The same thing is happening to Shaq now.

It obviously isn't era bias considering the three players I'm talking about here. I don't know what it is.


I don't normally try to point out weaknesses in a player when I'm comparing him to who I believe is the superior player, because I always feel the superior player's case should be able to stand by itself, no problem. I rarely see a need to attack the inferior player.

But if people want to micromanage the **** out of these players/comparisons...

[Dr Positivity]

One thing I find fascinating about Shaq vs Duncan is that 99-04 should've had everything in place to go down as the new age 84-87 Magic/Bird run. Two best players of their era, check. The two teams of their era, check. 2-2 in H2H (99, 01, 02, 03) with the winner getting the title each time + a rubber match in 04, check. One of the all time clutch swing moments to turn that rubber match, check. And yet those 5 LA/SA series are pretty much deemed irrelevant. You can say it's because a lot of times it was lopsided to one end, or that it wasn't in the Finals like Magic/Bird. But I personally think the media hype was never going to latch onto Duncan and the Spurs like Magic/LA, Bird/Boston, Shaq/LA, even when you can hardly find a more fitting circumstance for it to happen. I don't think there was any talk of rubber match or legacies in play at all in 04, it was just another LA Spurs series

[lorak]

vote: Bird
nomination: KG

[Doctor MJ]

Yup,

Vote: Bird
Nominate: Garnett

[ronnymac2]

While his team was in the middle of a Conference championship series, Larry Bird got into a bar fight in 1985, an event which left him with an injured hand. During the regular season, Larry Bird averaged 29/10/7. In the Finals that year, those averages dropped to 23.8/8.8/5 on worse percentages than in the regular season.

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2008/06/worst-of-celtics-lakers-part-8.html

During that series, he was mainly defended by James Worthy, not Michael Cooper. Worthy, while a good defender, isn't a legendary defender like Cooper is. Bird's individual play, for whatever reason, wasn't up to par. It's reasonable to believe his individual play lessened his team's chances at winning.

In 1983, Bird missed a crucial playoff game with the flu. It wasgame 2 of Boston's series against the Bucks. Bird also didn't look the same in game 3, though he played anyway and put up 20/10/6. That game is on Youtube. Bird still looked like he was recovering from the sickness. Boston lost 4-0.

Bird's shooting struggles in the 1981 NBA FINALS are well documented. In 42.8 minutes per game, he averaged 15.3 ppg on less than 42 percent shooting. He took the most shots on the team. To be fair, he did average 15.3 rpg and 7 apg, but also over 3 turnovers per game. His Boston team beat the 40-42 Houston Rockets in the NBA Finals in six games.

From 1980-1982, Bird's isolation game wasn't what it would become. He was a very good offensive rebounder, passer, and off-ball player- probably at the same level as prime Larry Bird, from 84-88, as far as off-ball play goes- but make no mistake, Bird wasn't in his prime all of those years. He wasn't the on-ball player he'd later become.

In 1989, Bird missed 76 games because of injury. He was never the same player again- never able to do the things Larry Legend did. Bird's prime was cut short. His prime wasn't as long as the other candidates. His play isn't perfect. He wasn't always the same Bird from 1980-1988 either.


Heck, Bird had faults in the playoffs. In 1982, he averaged 18 ppg on 43 percent shooting. In 1983, he averaged 20.5 ppg on 42.2 percent shooting. His TS percentage those years were below 48 percent.

Those two years (1982 and 1983)...his 1985 playoffs disappointment...the poor shooting performance in the 1981 NBA Finals...the lack of longevity of prime...

Look, Bird was a great player. But he had faults. He had tangible faults on the basketball court. His individual play, at times, simply wasn't up to par with what his team needed from him to win.

Hey, sometimes you can't produce. Hakeem had some faults. Shaq had some faults. Duncan and Kobe had faults. Hell, even Jordan struggled during certain playoff series. It doesn't make Bird a failure or underachiever or choker or bad performer. It only makes him like everybody else...

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Shaquille O'Neal

Nominate: LeBron James

Shaq doesn't have nearly as many individual playoff faults as Larry Bird, at least relative to how many good ones each had.

[lorak]

.the lack of longevity of prime...

I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post, but you know that Bird was top3 MVP voting 8 seasons in a row? (4x2nd, 3x1st, 1x3rd)

[ronnymac2]

MVP doesn't necessarily mean best player...It's also an award that doesn't take into consideration the playoffs...

[lorak]

But If someone was at the top so long how you could say about him "lack of longevity prime"? EIGHT YEARS IN A ROW at absolute top. Even Jordan wasn't at the top so long in a row.. Bird's prime was basically as long as Magic's!