Moses v.s KG

[GilmoreFan]

KG seems to be getting way more love than Moses, for reasons that are unclear to me. Maybe it's the perception KG "plays D", or maybe it's advanced stats that people around here love too much, like APM, but people are not giving Moses enough credit. His impact on the game of basketball at his peak was much greater than KG. He did things KG never did, like lead the Rockets to the finals on his own.

Moses won the MVP over prime Kareem, and I don't think it was a controversial, or even wrong decision. While the 1979 RPOY award gives it to Kareem, it's at least a discussion between the two. Moses was named in the first team over Kareem in 83 and 82 as well, when Kareem was only just tailing off from his prime. Is there any doubt at all Moses was a clear top 5 NBA player for a 7 year stretch (79-85)?

In a sense, they're similar players, in that they are incredibly easy to slot into a team without hurting that team. Putting Lebron and Wade together doesn't maximise their talents, because both like to dominate the ball. They're still incredible, but it's not ideal. Moses or KG, you just slot them in, and they can dominate playing off the ball, especially in Moses case, just focusing on rebounds and scoring there, and defense.

Everyone's talked up Karl Malone, and with some justification, but look at all those playoff failures he had. Moses on the other hand... the guy was a proverbial giant slayer. He had little help in Houston, and in 81 he took what was a pretty weak team to the NBA finals, pushing the Bird Celtics to 6 games, and on the way knocking out the Magic/Kareem Lakers, the Gervin Spurs, etc. What was the year Moses lost to inferior teams like Karl did? I can see only one example, the loss to the 84 Nets, and Dr J fell off huge that year in the playoffs... maybe the 79 playoffs to the Hawks when he was just coming into his own, but his support cast played like total trash (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1979.html lol) whereas Moses ripped it up. It's not like the many failures of Karl Malone, where his great postseasons came at age 34 and 35, and before that he was known as an underachiever. Without Moses the Rockets were one of the worst teams of all time, even if some of that was mild tanking.

People should be giving him alot more credit than they are. And his defence was good, alot better than people give credit to, he was able to body up guys alot better than KG. His offense is just flat out better though.

[JordansBulls]

Moses Malone. I dont see how KG has much of a case over him.

[Dr Positivity]

Moses did not take the Rockets to the Finals on his own

They had Robert Reid who was a pretty good 2nd best player (16, 7, 4 and 2 stls that year, basically was a pre-evolutionary Odom as a PF sized guy who played like a guard) and then good guard play in Henderson/Dunleavy/Murphy/Leavell rotation, each contributing differently. They had 5 players averaging over 4 assists per 36 minutes, those 4 guards and Reid which was important because Moses averaged 1.8 assists in 40 minutes. They also had solid supporting bigs who could both bang and spread the floor in Paultz and Willoughby. If you have a very good passing group, good shooting and supporting rebounders, all playing sound ball, you contribute. Like the 2011 Mavs

Like the Hakeem teams people tend to neglect the performances they wouldn't have made the Finals without, like Murphy dropping 42 in the G7 vs the Spurs which they won by 5 points

I would say the Rockets underperformed in the regular season most of the time. Other than that year they had at different points Rudy Tomjanovich at a high level, old but producing Rick Barry, old Elvin Hayes, at different points, with Murphy and Reid and Dunleavy there essentially the whole time. Yet they had 47, 40, 41, 46 W regular seasons and went 1st rd loss, 2nd rd sweep, and 1st rd loss in 79, 80 and 82. 79, 80 and 82 are extremely disappointing years Ws wise for a player in his MVP prime with legitimate talent around him

[GilmoreFan]

Yet those same Rockets fell from 46 wins in 1982 with Moses to 14 wins without him, and no other real changes in the roster. His support cast wasn't the 03 Spurs or 76 Nets, nobody said it was, but relative to what it achieved with him it wasn't far off. They beat the Lakers with Magic and still prime Kareem, the Gervin Spurs, and pushed the Celtics to 6 games.

I don't agree they underachieved in the regular season, I think the team was deeply flawed, and often injured. Moses had 4 healthy prime seasons there, and yes you identify their win totals correctly. Let me go a step further:
47 wins (1979)- They finished 4th in the East this year... perfectly acceptable season. The only teams who won more were the veteran Gervin Spurs (1 extra win) and the defending Champ Bullets. Plus if both their PG's don't miss 8 games each, they probably finish 2nd. The top 9 teams this year all finished between 47-54 wins.
40 wins (1980)- Rudy missed 20 games this year. Another key guard missed 31 games. That and other minor injuries, and you have your explanation. And please bear in mind "old but producing Rick Barry" was very old, and a shell of himself, while Elvin Hayes had been traded because he was a team cancer, selfish in games, and unbearable off the court (and he didn't arrive until 82!) The team got to the 2nd round and lost to Boston, which was all you could ask. Winning a few more regular season games like wouldn't have helped. Say they win the extra 11 games and win their division over the Hawks... then they have to play the 59 win Dr J 76ers in the first round, which they're sure to lose.
41 win (1981)- Rudy misses 30 games. Assorted injuries from everyone else. Not surprising they'd lose more... but Moses still got them to the NBA finals this year.
46 wins- the team gets a 36 year old, cancerous Hayes. Rudy is gone now, and there are various minor injuries to go around. This was an acceptable outcome. The exact same team won 14 games the next year!

[AshyLarry]

both players won a ring with different teams, but 3 MVP's and a championship being as "the man" gives it to malone than KG

[ROR]

2008 clutch stats when KG "led the celtics to a championship as their best player"
(per 48 minutes)

Garnett: 21.1 PPG, 13.2 Reb, 2.5 AST, -12, .467 TS%, 7.9 FTA
Nowitzki: 46 PPG, 13.6 Reb, 4.4 AST, .586 TS%, +17, 19.9 FTA
LeBron: 56 PPG, 9.6 Reb, 8.2 AST, .609 TS%, +31, 22.5
DWade: 35.4 PPG, 5.8 Reb, 8.2 AST, .450 TS%, -30, 20.3

That's a laugher.

It's a good thing KG had guys like Pierce and Allen because KG was never going be able to do what guys like Dirk, Duncan, and Moses Malone did for their teams in a championship run.

Some treat KG like he is Ben Wallace or Tim Duncan on defense.

It's a good thing the Celtics had the junk yard dog pre injury Kendrick Perkins to body up on Bynam, because you are trouble if KG has to do it.

Go to the Top 100 List #13 thread and look at all the clutch stats comparisons.

The "KG changed the culture" thing is greatly overrated, overblown, and overhyped. As if other players don't provide those intangibles for their teams. The media has pounded this theme into the minds of fans over and over again. It's the boston and LA thing in basketball that much of the national media (bspn and others) is going to focus on and give a disproportionate amount of coverage to, creating the illusion that KG is better than he really is.

Since the fall of Lebron and the quieting of "the next Jordon" nonsense, and since the education of astute fans on Kobe's flaws, that leaves KG as the most overrated player in the league.

(Credit to colts18 for posting those clutch stats in the Top 100 List #13 thread)

[schaffy]

Why in a thread about KG and Moses did you spend so much time talking about Karl Malone? You spent just as much, if not more, time discussing Karl Malone as KG.

For the record, Moses Malone was better than Garnett, no question in my mind about that.

But for your argument about being able to plug in Moses or Kevin on a team equally, thats not the case. KG had the game which allowed him to not have to dominate the ball. Better defender than Malone, better at defensive rebounding (offensive Moses kills KG) and a much much better passer. Moses was a great offensive player and a great rebounder, but had a lot of TOs and wasnt a great passer.

[Die93]

Ohh the classic underrate TimDuncan's contemporaries thead from gilmorefan


This is KG, 2004 Garnett>>>Any Version of Moses
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VtZht_8t4[/youtube]

[cpower]

Because players today are always overrated compared to the legends in the past

[Dezmondballins3]

Because players today are always overrated compared to the legends in the past

No they aren't it depends on the case. You can't act like people don't overrate Clyde and Pippen because they do. that being said Moses>KG.

[ROR]

KG is not among the best on either side of the ball.

Big men who were shot blocking, shot altering, paint patrolling beasts were in a completely different (and higher) category than KG on defense. And that is a lengthy list of players. That includes guys like Tim Duncan and Ben Wallace.

[JordansBulls]

Ohh the classic underrate TimDuncan's contemporaries thead from gilmorefan


This is KG, 2004 Garnett>>>Any Version of Moses
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VtZht_8t4[/youtube]

Not 1983 Moses.

[therealbig3]

Because players today are always overrated compared to the legends in the past

I disagree. Bird, Magic, and Wilt are considered part of the imaginary Immortal Six, and you're considered a lunatic if you rank Duncan, Shaq, or Hakeem over any of them. Thankfully, this site is by far the best I've ever visited and is open to questioning the popular beliefs.

Then you see guys like Oscar, West, Havlicek, Cousy, Mikan, and Pettit get overrated too, simply because of their reputation. I don't see how Cousy is a better player than Nash, Frazier, Kidd, or Payton, yet he's ranked ahead of them on many all-time lists. I think the only reason Mikan gets ranked is because he won 5 rings. There's nothing to suggest that he was a top 10 center, yet he's usually ranked up there.

Meanwhile, KG is criminally underrated everywhere but here, and simply because nobody is willing to entertain the idea that Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem might be better than Bird, Magic, and Wilt anywhere but here, they're underrated as well. Nash, D12, LeBron, Wade, the list goes on.

IMO, it's the other way around: the legends of today are constantly getting underrated compared to the players of the past.

[therealbig3]

KG is not among the best on either side of the ball.

Big men who were shot blocking, shot altering, paint patrolling beasts were in a completely different (and higher) category than KG on defense. And that is a lengthy list of players. That includes guys like Tim Duncan and Ben Wallace.

The only thing KG didn't do on that list was block shots at an elite level (even then, he averages 1.5 bpg for his career, and he peaked at 2.2 bpg, so he's a legit shot blocker, just not all-time great). But he patrols the paint and he alters shots big time.

Honestly, KG's defensive impact has been argued ad nauseam on this site, and it's pretty hard to argue with the amount of data that points to KG being an all-time great defender.

[SamBone]

Moses did not take the Rockets to the Finals on his own

when did KG win anything on his own? I love both players, but Moses is getting sold way short, IMO

[Vindicater]

Moses Malone is top 15 player in NBA history (Top ten in my mind).

KG is not. (and I am a diehard T-wolves and KG fan)

This is Moses and its easy.

[tclg]

I think moses is better at his peak offensively the guy was a monster also on the boards

[GilmoreFan]

I guess my point is that this guy was alot better than guys like Karl Malone or KG, who keep getting rated ahead of him lately for some strange reason. All the strong arguments tend to focus on Moses being more impactful, except bizarro advanced stats that people don't use consistently, are inherently flawed, and which we don't even have for back when Moses played by and large.

I don't rank him over KG by much, but I question the lack of respect he's getting by stat advanced stat monkeys.

[Laimbeer]

Moses for me.

I believe what happened in the top 100 list was a long, drawn out debate between two or three posters at the #12 spot between Karl and Garnett. When Karl got it, a lot of voters just seemed to assume the next spot was KG's.

[ROR]

KG is not among the best on either side of the ball.

Big men who were shot blocking, shot altering, paint patrolling beasts were in a completely different (and higher) category than KG on defense. And that is a lengthy list of players. That includes guys like Tim Duncan and Ben Wallace.

The only thing KG didn't do on that list was block shots at an elite level (even then, he averages 1.5 bpg for his career, and he peaked at 2.2 bpg, so he's a legit shot blocker, just not all-time great). But he patrols the paint and he alters shots big time.

Honestly, KG's defensive impact has been argued ad nauseam on this site, and it's pretty hard to argue with the amount of data that points to KG being an all-time great defender.

Lot's of players were all time great defenders. But most of them are not even in this conversation. We can call KG an all time great defender. That in and of itself means nothing in this argument. That in and of itself does not put anyone in the class of Hakeem on defense.

Another problem for KG in this comparison...he was physically thin and didn't weigh as much compared to the GOAT level shot blocking, shot altering, paint patrolling beasts.

There were simply bigger, badder men who blocked more shots, altered more shots, and patrolled the paint at a bigger badder man level than KG. They were heavier and stronger and could body up on guys at a bigger badder man level. They could physically push people around in ways that KG could not because they were bigger badder men.

The GOAT level shot blocking, shot altering, paint patrolling beasts are at the highest level of defense possible. They are in a class by themselves, and KG is not in that class.