RealGM Top 100 List #19

[penbeast0]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Steve Nash

* 2xMVP (2005, 2006)
* 3x 1st All-NBA
* 2x 2nd All-NBA
* 2x 3rd All-NBA
* 7x All-Star

John Havlicek

* 8x NBA Champion
* Finals MVP (1974)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 7x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 5x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team Selection
* 3x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* 13x AllStar
* Basketball HOF Player (1984)

Patrick Ewing

* 1x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 6x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 2x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* 11x All-STar
* Rookie of the Year (1986)
* Basketball HOF Player (2008)

Elgin Baylor

* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 11× All-Star
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1959)
* Rookie of the Year (1959)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1977
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Rick Barry

* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* 5× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 4× All-ABA 1st Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 12× All-Star (8 NBA, 4 ABA)
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Walt Frazier

* NBA Champion (1970, 1973)
* 4× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 7x 1st Team All-Defense
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1975)
* 7× All-Star
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Dwyane Wade

NBA Champion (2006)
7x NBA All-Star
2x All-NBA First Team
3 All-NBA Second Team
1x All-NBA Third Team
3x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
2010 All-Star Game MVP
2006 NBA Finals MVP

Bob Pettit

NBA Champion (1958)
2× NBA MVP (1956, 1959)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1956, 1958–1959, 1962)
11× NBA All-Star (1955–1965)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1955)
10× All-NBA First Team (1955–1964)
All-NBA Second Team (1965)
2× NBA Scoring Champion (1957, 1959)
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

David Robinson

2× NBA Champion (1999,2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
4x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-NBA 1st Team
NBA DPOY (1992)
4x NBA All-Defense 1st Team
4x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
NBA ROY (1990)
10x All-Star

Charles Barkley

# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006

[penbeast0]

From a List by FJS

VOTE -- Charles Barkley

NOMINATE -- John Stockton

[penbeast0]

The two main returning candidates are Bob Pettit and Charles Barkley. Pettit looks inefficient at first but that's because he played much of his career when the whole league (other than Pettit and a few other top players) was shooting below .400; relative to his era, he was in the Charles Barkley range of near the top in efficiency because of his ridiculous foul draw but with better defense, a much better attitude and intangibles, and one of the great game 7 performances ever to win a ring.

Here’s the rough statistical breakdown for Pettit and Barkley relative to league averages. I am using 5 year peaks loosely determined by both individual and team success to pick the years. Pettit’s 5 year peak will be 1957 to 1961 – he never dropped below the 23.6 of his final year but while he was MVP and took his team to the NBA finals in 1956, his 61 season was a better team year. It was the last year for STL as the clear 2nd best team in the league. In 1956 and 1963 (outside this 5 year peak) Pettit also led the league in playoff PER -- he really was just consistently great.

The first group of numbers is natural, the second is adjusted to year 2011 numbers, all adjustments are done by simple ratios of league reb-ast-pts-efg/average team multiplied by the players’ per game averages to try to even out pace and relative efficiency.

Bob Pettit Min Reb Ast Pts TS% league efg% W-L
1957 STL 35.1 14.6 1.9 24.7 .494 .380 (34-48)
1958 STL 36.1 17.4 2.2 24.6 .492 .383 (41-31)
1959 STL 39.9 16.4 3.1 29.2 .519 .395 (49-23)
1960 STL 40.2 17.0 3.6 26.1 .510 .410 (46-29)
1961 STL 39.8 20.3 3.4 27.9 .511 .415 (51-28)
(Pettit’s rebounding, assist and scoring went up the next 2 years as the league went into one of its highest pace areas but these were the best STL teams)

1957 adj – 11.0 2.5 28.1 .645 NBA Finals (Celtics)
1958 adj – 11.4 2.7 26.2 .640 NBA Champions
1959 adj – 11.0 3.9 30.6 .654 MVP (lost WCF)
1960 adj – 10.5 3.8 24.6 .619 NBA Finals (Celtics)
1961 adj – 11.9 3.1 24.4 .613 NBA Finals (Celtics)

Charles Barkley had the longer run though his physical conditioning started to catch up to him. Still, his peak also lasted 10 solid years of All-Pro play. I have chosen 1989-1993 for his 5 year stretch, before this period, Philly was not a playoff team, after it, Barkley started missing a lot of time due to nagging injuries.

Barkley Min Reb Ast Pts TS% league efg% W-L
1989 PHI 39.1 12.5 4.1 25.8 .653 .489 (46-36)
1990 PHI 39.1 11.5 3.9 25.2 .661 .489 (53-29)
1991 PHI 37.3 10.1 4.2 27.6 .635 .487 (44-38)
1992 PHI 38.4 11.1 4.1 23.1 .612 .487 (35-47)
1993 PHX 37.6 12.2 5.1 25.6 .596 .491 (62-20)

1989 adj – 11.8 3.4 23.5 .665 (lost in 1st rd)
1990 adj – 11.0 3.4 23.4 .673 (lost in 2nd)
1991 adj – 9.7 3.4 25.8 .649 (lost in 2nd)
1992 adj – 10.5 3.6 23.3 .626 (missed playoffs)
1993 adj – 11.7 4.4 24.2 MVP / NBA Finals (Chicago)




As for the nomination, at center I still favor Artis Gilmore. Artis was a dominant player in the ABA, 1A/1B with Julius Erving as best player, and still an outstanding one once he came to the NBA particularly in terms of scoring efficiency -- counting only his NBA years he is the all time most efficient scorer in league history on decent volume and with good defense and rebounding as well. (2nd most efficient with a stretch of great defense and a Finals MVP when you include the ABA).

Dwight Howard hasn't done enough yet to pass him, Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. At PF, McHale didn't rebound as well and doesn't beat out Artis for efficiency, McHale's main argument. Hayes does rebound that well but was inefficient and a jerk.

Scottie Pippen is the greatest wing forward left, Clyde Drexler is the greatest wing guard. I used to say great PGs affect the game more than great wings but the modern era has changed that. Drexler has a clear statistical edge, particularly as the primary scorers on a lot of very good Portland teams and even a top second banana year to win a ring in Houston. Pippen has the defensive reputation and 6 rings as a second banana . . . and didn't fall off much if any when Jordan quit for 2 years and Pippen had to be the main man.

Finally, there is the PG battle between the very efficient and GOAT playmaker John Stockton, and the primary option tough guys Gary Payton and Isiah Thomas. Without going into the Stockton issue (he has fanatic fans who will do this), I will say that Payton and Isiah look very similar statistically with Payton having a clear regular season edge -- he was more efficient, had more range, a better assist to turnover ratio -- plus he was considered arguably the greatest defensive PG of all time who just disrupted opponents. Even Magic once said that Payton was the only guy he ever played where Magic had to turn around and back the ball down against him. On Isiah's side, he was more explosive, especially in the playoffs where he shone. However, unless someone can show me that Payton's DEFENSE didn't translate into the playoffs, I rate him above Isiah Thomas.

Among Gilmore, Pippen, and Payton, I would take Gilmore. Until recent rule changes, there were few players with the impact of a great 2-way center. I could see voting for one of the outside players and will switch my vote if it is between one of them and a player I rank lower but for now:

VOTE: Bob Pettit

NOMINATE: Artis Gilmore

[JerkyWay]

For the same reason as #18:

Vote: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

[Laimbeer]

Vote: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

Pettit wasn't a knucklehead and he absolutely dominated his position for a decade. He won a title, and probably would have snared more if he hadn't run into a dynasty great enough to deny a guy like Wilt as well.

Pen, you're a great poster, but all you've got with Payton is great defense. I love that, but this is pretty clearly Isiah. He's the more explosive guy, better handles, and got it done in the playoffs. And his defence is pretty underrated. As for Payton's defence translating in the playoffs, I direct you to the results.

We're actually getting near the point Thomas should be considered for the list, I'll get into the reasons later.

[Wavy Q]

For the same reason as #18:

Vote: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Bob Pettit (surprised to not see him chosen yet. Won 2 MVP's and brought the Hawks franchise it's only title. Also led in PER 4x)
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

[pancakes3]

Vote bob pettit
Nominate isiah thomas

[An Unbiased Fan]

Vote: Pettit
Nomination: Stockton

[penbeast0]

Vote: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

Pettit wasn't a knucklehead and he absolutely dominated his position for a decade. He won a title, and probably would have snared more if he hadn't run into a dynasty great enough to deny a guy like Wilt as well.

Pen, you're a great poster, but all you've got with Payton is great defense. I love that, but this is pretty clearly Isiah. He's the more explosive guy, better handles, and got it done in the playoffs. And his defence is pretty underrated. As for Payton's defence translating in the playoffs, I direct you to the results.

We're actually getting near the point Thomas should be considered for the list, I'll get into the reasons later.

Look at the numbers. The scoring and assist differences between Payton and Thomas aren't huge despite the fact that Payton on the whole played with more offensive minded teammates (Kemp, Schrempf, Ellis,etc.) while Thomas played with more defensive minded teammates (Laimbeer, Rodman, Dumars, etc.) AND Payton was (a) more efficient as a scorer according to their relative ts% and (b) more efficient as a playmaker with a better assist to turnover ratio because he was very good at not throwing it away unlike Isiah who made a lot more bad decisions with the ball. Payton was also a better rebounder if it comes to that. AND OF COURSE, DEFENSE . . .

The counterargument has to come from the playoffs where Isiah shown. That's why I asked if anyone could compare their playoff team numbers offensively and defensively the way people did to support Steve Nash. Isiah is the bigger playoff performer offensively but he has a lot to overcome to top Payton's regular season and defensive advantage. Yes, Isiah went a round further but he had a lot more talent around him. I'd take Laimbeer and Rodman over Donaldson and Kemp any day; Dumars and Tripuka/Dantley/Aguirre over Shrempf/McDaniels/Ellis/Hawkins; and the Detroit bench and coaching (Chuck Daly) over those of Seattle (George Karl). So, it's not a /thread that Isiah got two rings whereas Payton only got his team to the finals (I'm ignoring the Miami one because Payton had little to do with it).

. . .

AS long as we are at it, all the arguments that applied for the people voting Steve Nash over Isiah apply to Stockton just as well. Huge efficiency and assist advantage, teams were a lot more effective offensively, etc. and Stockton adds a defensive advantage over Isiah as well.

I am not going to freak out if Isiah gets in but it's ridiculous for him to be walking in without any supporting argument.

[cpower]

Vote: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

[penbeast0]

That's 6 people who nominated Isiah and only Laimbeer had even a 2 sentence attempt to justify it v.
Payton (without providing any numbers to back it up). No one compared him to Stockton, Drexler, or Pippen at all . . . this is supposed to be a discussion thread.

[JordansBulls]

That's 6 people who nominated Isiah and only Laimbeer had even a 2 sentence attempt to justify it v.
Payton (without providing any numbers to back it up). No one compared him to Stockton, Drexler, or Pippen at all . . . this is supposed to be a discussion thread.

I took Isiah because he took a franchise who never won anything prior to him as the best player on it and the perenial allstar to a contender for a 5 year span and won 2 titles in the process and made 5 conference finals. You can make a case for Drexler because he carried teams as well while guys like Scottie and Stockton generally always had teammates who was better than they were.

[Baller 24]

Isiah, Payton, & Kidd are clearly the elite tier 1 PGs left. What makes John Stockton better than Scottie Pippen? Very well a more elite second option, a much better defender relative to their positions, even if we're comparing overall resume's Pippen trumps Stockton.

[Baller 24]

I took Isiah because he took a franchise who never won anything prior to him as the best player on it and the perenial allstar to a contender for a 5 year span and won 2 titles in the process and made 5 conference finals. You can make a case for Drexler because he carried teams as well while guys like Scottie and Malone generally always had teammates who was better than they were.

Karl Malone had teammates better than himself? Lol.

[Fencer reregistered]

That's 6 people who nominated Isiah and only Laimbeer had even a 2 sentence attempt to justify it v.
Payton (without providing any numbers to back it up).

Pettit and Thomas were both close runners-up last time. I voted for both, for reasons given in that thread; I now vote for Pettit and Thomas again.

I think the discussion for the next spot after that should be about Payton vs. Pippen -- outstanding 2-way perimeter players from overlapping eras who never actually won an MVP award or led a team to a championship.

[mysticbb]

That's 6 people who nominated Isiah and only Laimbeer had even a 2 sentence attempt to justify it v.
Payton (without providing any numbers to back it up). No one compared him to Stockton, Drexler, or Pippen at all . . . this is supposed to be a discussion thread.

That is indeed sad. As far as I understand it the reason for Thomas are two championships for the Pistons and his intangibles helping the Pistons playing better defense. The first is a team accomplishment, based upon the fact that the Pistons improved defensively when they started winning, and the 2nd is something he only possessed as a player while not having it anymore as a coach. So, how much worth is something like that?

We know that Isiah Thomas performed better in average in the playoffs, that is a huge plus for him in a comparison with Gary Payton. For a 7 yr span from 1984 to 1990 Isiah Thomas' performances indices PER and WS/48 went up to 122% of his regular season level. If we look that up for Payton, we are getting for a 11 yr stretch from 1993 to 2003 only 78% of his regular season value. We can account for that by combining the regular season and playoff minutes by valuing the playoff numbers twice as much as the regular season minutes. Doing that we are getting:

Payton 1993-2003: 20.7 PER, 0.158 WS/48
Thomas 1983-1990: 19.7 PER, 0.138 WS/48

Both metrics are pretty good estimators of the offensive performance while struggling a bit with defensive efforts besides blocked shots, steals and rebounds. We can do the same for DRB%, STL% and BLK% as we did for PER and WS/48 and we get:

Payton 1993-2003: 9.8 DRB%, 2.7 STL%, 0.5 BLK%
Thomas 1983-1990: 8.7 DRB%, 2.8 STL%, 0.5 BLK%

Thus, statistically speaking we have Payton with the slight advantage due to the clearly better rebounding number, the other two are basically the same.
But we also know that Payton was a better defender, not only in terms of 1on1, but also as a team defender.

Both players didn't miss many games, Thomas missed 11 from 1983-1990, Payton 6 from 1993-2003, Payton played in average 38.6 minutes, Thomas 37.2 minutes. And again, we are comparing 11 years of Payton with 8 years of Thomas. The picture looks basically the same for their respective peak seasons.

Overall Payton takes the stats comparison, he was better offensively and better defensively, he played longer and more minutes per game, missed slightly less games per season. Thomas has the improved play during the playoffs, but even with that incorperated with a twice as much value than regular season numbers Payton comes out ahead.

Where Thomas intangibles so much more worth, even though those intangibles didn't show up during his coaching stints, that we can dismiss the other hard evidence that Payton was better? I doubt that.

Vote: Bob Pettit
Nomination: Patrick Ewing

[Baller 24]

Ewing's already been nominated.

[JordansBulls]

I took Isiah because he took a franchise who never won anything prior to him as the best player on it and the perenial allstar to a contender for a 5 year span and won 2 titles in the process and made 5 conference finals. You can make a case for Drexler because he carried teams as well while guys like Scottie and Malone generally always had teammates who was better than they were.

Karl Malone had teammates better than himself? Lol.

Stockton I meant. Why make things difficult for me?

[Fencer reregistered]

As far as I understand it the reason for Thomas are two championships for the Pistons and his intangibles helping the Pistons playing better defense.

GOAT going to the hoop for either a lay-up or a dish (but not, of course, a dunk).