Shaq/Rose vs KG/Paul/Allen

[Rapcity_11]

Shaq was better then EWing/DRob by his 3rd season and outplayed Hakeem in a greater % of their H2H matchups by then even in the Finals Hakeem was barely able to play Shaq to a Wash.

Shaq was the best Center in the league by 95.

Penny was decent for 2-3 years but the rest of that Orlando Cast choked badly in the Finals and got outplayed by the Rockets Cast.. so yea your really overrating them. I will say that in the 90's the only Cast Shaq had that was good enough to actually contend was his magic casts for 2 maybe 3 years the rest were basically garbage.

@Rapcity : I am saying that Prime Shaq is without a doubt more valuable then KG and either one of those guys combined. All 3 together.. probably not but its not like Rose is some worthless Scrub.

I would be happy with either Duo/Trio but Shaq is the proven commodity especially in the PS where KG never really proved himself as the man and honestly he was never as good of an offensive/defensive anchor as Shaq was in his Prime years.

Prime Shaq is more valuable than 24/14/5/2/2 KG and 23/11/6/3 CP3 combined? I don't even know what to say to that...

Prime Shaq has got to be the most over romanticized player of all time. He won 1 MVP and 4 titles. Hardly the unstoppable force that can't lose, a lot of people make him out to be.

Then again you think Shaq was a better defensive anchor than KG.

[34Dayz]

I know Shaq was a better defensive anchor.

He isn't romanticized he really was "that good"

Winning Titles is about having one of the best teams in the league and being lucky, its not having the best player in the league.

Shaq could have easily had 6 titles if not for the failing of his teammates and he was robbed for atleast 2-3MVPS.

How many players in NBA History (or lets just say from this generation have 4Titles and 3FMVPs? Kobe, Hakeem, CP3, KG? (nope) oh but I guess it doesn't matter cuz its Shaq and he should of done better.

Shaq was the best player from 99-02 + he should have won MVP in 05 so thats 5MVP's.

He was the unstoppable force and one of the best players in the league for 13-14+ years but it doesnt matter how good you are if your team isnt good enough or your supporting cast chokes/plays badly your gonna lose. No one is an exception to that rule Not Jordan Not Shaq or any player in NBA history.

KG only won "1 title" so I guess he's utter trash right?

If you use that ignorant way of judging players and go by team success then Shaq is 10x more valuable then KG/CP3/Allen combined.

[Rapcity_11]

I know Shaq was a better defensive anchor.

Every shred of evidence and expert opinion disagrees with this.

He isn't romanticized he really was "that good"

Winning Titles is about having one of the best teams in the league and being lucky, its not having the best player in the league.

Exactly. So the whole Shaq + x = title is a load of crap. KG/CP3/Allen gives you a better team so you go with them.

Shaq could have easily had 6 titles if not for the failing of his teammates and he was robbed for atleast 2-3MVPS.

How many players in NBA History (or lets just say from this generation have 4Titles and 3FMVPs? Kobe, Hakeem, CP3, KG? oh but I guess it doesnt matter cuz its Shaq and he should of done better.

Shaq was the best player from 99-02 + he should have won MVP in 05 so thats 5MVP's.

MVP in 05? Nope, not that close either. He should have 00-01 for sure and maybe 2002.

[Rapcity_11]

He was the unstoppable force and one of the best players in the league for 13-14+ years but it doesnt matter how good you are if your team isnt good enough or your supporting cast chokes/plays badly your gonna lose. No one is an exception to that rule Not Jordan Not Shaq or any player in NBA history.

KG only won "1 title" so I guess he's utter trash right?

If you use that ignorant way of judging players and go by team success then Shaq is 10x more valuable then KG/CP3/Allen combined.

In case you've some how missed it, I am one of the biggest proponents of discounting team success when it comes to individuals...

You're the one who brought up team success, by saying Shaq + X = ring. That has proven to not neccesarily be true.

[34Dayz]

I think before the thigh injury he suffered Pre-Playoffs Shaq was without a doubt the MVP of the league. Before the injury he was averaging 23/11/3/2.5 on 60% Shooting.. and was a great defensive anchor one of the best in the league, he definitely deserved MVP over Nash.

Shaq in ORL had a good Cast for 2-3 years in those years they lost to a much better Team in the Bulls (with Shaq being the best player in the series) and lost to Houston due to the failing of his Teammates.

He didnt have a decent supporting cast from 96-00 but still managed to Carry the 00 Lakers to a Title, in 01 with Kobe maturing he finally had a decent/good supporting Cast and look what happens 4 Final appearances and 3 Titles + 3FMVPs then he is paired with a average/decent cast in Miami and bang a Title + ECF appearance, and if not for both him and Wade getting injured in 05 thatd be two titles.

So basically Shaq + Decent supporting Cast = Title Contention and I just proved its true. Or I should say history has proven it to be true.

Rose is a nice enough piece, if you put 1 more decent offensive player on that team and maybe a couple of average/decent roleplayers you've got a Title team.

You do have a point though about the better team winning not the team with the best player, but Shaq/Rose might be better then KG/CP3/Allen.

[jaypo]

I thinik it's ridiculous that instead of focusing on the 4 titles he DID win, people wanna point out the ones that he DIDN'T win. Do they do that with MJ? Kobe? KAJ? Wilt? Nope. Only Shaq.

34Dayz- I think the more accurate statement would be that Shaq+decent help = playoff team and championship CONTENDER. There's really no way to disprove that. History has proven it. Now, Shaq+good support + great coaching = championship. That also has been proven. To go further, for those "Shaq had Penny" lovers, Shaq + "great" (on paper, at least) cast + horrible coaching = finals, but swept. Much like Kobe + average cast + Rudy T half the season= missing playoffs. You see? The point being is that great players CAN NOT WIN by themselves. But truly great players make their teams competitive, and GOAT level players make them contenders. Shaq's rookie season, he had no Penny and transformed a team from 21 wins to 41 wins and only missed the playoffs by 1 game. The next year, they were in the playoffs. The following year, they were in the finals. 2005- Shaq goes to the Heat which won a playoff series the year before. They reached the ECF (and would have made it to the finals if not for Wade's injury). The next year, title. So the 1st 3 teams Shaq played for went to the finals a combined 6 times. Was it a coincidence that Shaq was the common link? No. That's what GOAT level players do whether it was from scoring a million points per season (Kobe) or playing GOAT level defense (Russell) or dominating all around (Shaq).

In this comparison- I'd say with full confidence that if you put Shaq and Rose on a team and surround them with equal talent at the other 3 spots but have Phil, Pat, or Pop coaching, I'd absolutely take them over KG, Paul, and Allen surrounded by equal talent and Brian Hill coaching! Or Del Harris. Or Frank Hamblin. Or Kurt Rambis.

[Rapcity_11]

Why is there not more talk about how tail end prime KG and Allen won a title in pretty dominating fashion. Put them in peak form with CP3 who is a big upgrade on 08 Pierce than you have a historically great team.

On the other hand Shaq+Rose is just a worse version of Shaq+Kobe.

Take these teams. I made the role players as equal as I could.

Rose
Bell
Fox
Horry
Shaq

Paul
Allen
Fox
KG
Perkins

The second group is clearly a better team.

Jaypo - Why does Shaq get PJ or Pop and the other team gets Hill?

[ahonui06]

Celtics trio.

It's essentially Shaq vs. 3 All-Stars.

[34Dayz]

Why is there not more talk about how tail end prime KG and Allen won a title in pretty dominating fashion. Put them in peak form with CP3 who is a big upgrade on 08 Pierce than you have a historically great team.

The 08-10 Celtics were a stacked team, it wasn't just KG/Allen/Pierce

KG never won or came close to winning against a team led by someone like Prime Shaq or Prime Duncan. The latter half of the 00's was a notoriously weak Era with teams like Orlando somehow making the Finals.

@AHoun : Isnt rose good enough to be considered an All-Star, I mean he got murdered by the Heat D but he still won MVP... he is an AS.

[chefy]

KG/Chris Paul/Ray Allen easily

[jaypo]

Why is there not more talk about how tail end prime KG and Allen won a title in pretty dominating fashion. Put them in peak form with CP3 who is a big upgrade on 08 Pierce than you have a historically great team.

On the other hand Shaq+Rose is just a worse version of Shaq+Kobe.

Take these teams. I made the role players as equal as I could.

Rose
Bell
Fox
Horry
Shaq

Paul
Allen
Fox
KG
Perkins
The second group is clearly a better team.

Jaypo - Why does Shaq get PJ or Pop and the other team gets Hill?

I just used the coaches to prove a point about how there is more to it than just player x + player y equals title.

Honestly, in your example, I'd choose the 1st team. I'd put more faith in Rose, Bell, and Shaq (with Fox cancelling himself out) being able to outshine Paul, Perk, and Allen. I think Rose and CP would be very very close, and Bell would be able to somewhat contain Allen, although Allen would still get a good bit of scoring done. The big difference is Shaq and Perk. Prime Shaq would absolutely dismantle Perk. On the other end, KG would dismantle Horry, but as you saw during the Lakers' 3 peats, the PF spot always got torched, and Horry was the PF mainly. KG was a part of that in 04.

Of course, I can see the argument the other way. Paul is the best PG overall in the comparison, and I'm a big supporter of how good Ray Allen really is. And KG, well, I personally think that if he and Duncan switched places, KG would be talked about as #8 GOAT and the best PF of all time. To me, it can really go either way in your scenario. I think the deciding factor would be the coaching.

[Rapcity_11]

Why is there not more talk about how tail end prime KG and Allen won a title in pretty dominating fashion. Put them in peak form with CP3 who is a big upgrade on 08 Pierce than you have a historically great team.

The 08-10 Celtics were a stacked team, it wasn't just KG/Allen/Pierce

KG never won or came close to winning against a team led by someone like Prime Shaq or Prime Duncan. The latter half of the 00's was a notoriously weak Era with teams like Orlando somehow making the Finals.

@AHoun : Isnt rose good enough to be considered an All-Star, I mean he got murdered by the Heat D but he still won MVP... he is an AS.

Stacked? Outside of the big 3, they are far from stacked. Rondo was still a 10-5 guy and Perkins and Posey were nice roleplayers but nothing special. Very comparable to Shaq's supporting casts with the Lakers.

Who cares what KG did on his own? This about KG/Paul/Allen.

[34Dayz]

I'm saying its easier to go through Gasol or Bynum then it is to go through Prime Shaq or Prime Duncan.

and Rondo was a triple dub guy in the playoffs he was no roleplayer.

[Rapcity_11]

I'm saying its easier to go through Gasol or Bynum then it is to go through Prime Shaq or Prime Duncan.

and Rondo was a triple dub guy in the playoffs he was no roleplayer.

1. Ok, sure.

2. Rondo in the 08 PS put up 10.2/6.6/4.4 on 45.4 TS%. Roleplayer. It was the next year he upped his play substantially.

[Doormatt]

The whole Shaq + all-star wing = title argument is weak.

How about I counter with KG + CP3 + Allen = title.

Do people honestly think the trio doesn't win a title? There's justification for taking Shaq but you need something more than to say they would win a title because both teams in all likelihood would win...

Oh and Doormatt, this is Chris Paul we're talking about I would imagine.

Really? If this is Chris Paul, I don't even know how this is a thread. Now it's the celtics trio even easier for me.

[34Dayz]

Haha maybe your right on this one but I'd still pick Shaq.

[Rapcity_11]

Haha maybe your right on this one but I'd still pick Shaq.

Shocking.

[joeyAdaMan]

give me the trio.......give shaq and rose....dirk or paul pierce this is more reasonable

[joeyAdaMan]

Haha maybe your right on this one but I'd still pick Shaq.

Shocking.

lol

[lilroddyb]

I have a feeling that 34days thinks that Shaq has been unlucky with talent he has been playing with

Well I think shaq has been exreemly lucky with the cast he has had over his career. He got lucky to play with two of the best shooting guards in Kobe Bryant and dwyane Wade( besides jordan), and ofcourse they with him. And I think any great big would have won titles with those players for example: Tim Duncan, KG, Dirk,Hakeem and others. And I believe if let say if Kobe had been playing with Tim Duncan for all of his career, Shaq might have ended with Zero rings and Tim Duncan and kobe could have been modern day bill russells Celtics.
So all i am saying is Shaq has been playing with great talent and I believe Hakeem for example might have won more than two titles if he would have been playing with : Penny, Kobe, Payton, Karl Malone, Wade, Alonzo, Steve Nash, Amare, Lebron and others. I know he did not play with all of them in his prime or their's but that is a lot of talent so dont act like he has been playing with just decent talent, its great.
Anyway I am not a Shaq hater and I think he is in the top 8 player ever but I think 34days and some others tend to overrate him a little bit.
I would personally Take KG, Allen and Paul. That is really good offense and defense and I think i would enjoy watching them more.
English is not my language so take it easy on me