John Wall vs Derrick Rose

[boogydown]

I don't think Rose is in no way a pass first PG. His temperament may not be of a usual scorer but its his goal to score.
Wall on the other hand is an pass first PG and I think the potential to be a better player. With expected all-defensive team defense, in time his scoring and understanding of the league will improve.
Rose will continue to be a great scorer and suspect a couple of 30ppg seasons
Essentially wat Rerisen said "I'd take Wall for this type of team, Rose for this type. Where I think if reached potential for both players Wall would be the victor.

If your team needs someone who can distribute the ball more, Wall is your guy.
If your team needs someone who can score anyway he wants, Rose is your guy.

Lets settle at that though Wall has a lot to prove still to be that type of guy.

[MF Doom]

Rose now and in the future.

[glenclose]

long term i think wall has rose. but we will have to see how they build around him in washington.

[alucryts]

long term i think wall has rose. but we will have to see how they build around him in washington.

This is an important point. If he is surrounded by nothing, nothing he does will be taken completely seriously.

[bbms]

John Wall turns the ball over too much, I think right now his decision making is questionable.

[tclg]

Im taking Derrick Rose. I think John wall has the chance to be awesome though

[Chosen01]

John Wall will be better IMO, as a rookie it seemed like he had the decision-making of a 6 year nba player.I think he will be a TRUE PG while being able to score(albeit I don't think he'll be as good as Rose in that department).If he can improve his jump shooting then I can see him passing Rose in the future.

He could yes, but the odds are against him.

Says who? I think it's much likely Wall develops into a decent scorer while being a "pass first" than Rose developing that instinct of a true play-making PG/

I see their primes as:

Rose-27.5ppg 5rpg 8apg 1.3spg .7bpg

Wall- 22ppg 10apg 5rpg 2.3spg 1bpg

[alucryts]

John Wall will be better IMO, as a rookie it seemed like he had the decision-making of a 6 year nba player.I think he will be a TRUE PG while being able to score(albeit I don't think he'll be as good as Rose in that department).If he can improve his jump shooting then I can see him passing Rose in the future.

He could yes, but the odds are against him.

Says who? I think it's much likely Wall develops into a decent scorer while being a "pass first" than Rose developing that instinct of a true play-making PG/

I see their primes as:

Rose-27.5ppg 5rpg 8apg 1.3spg .7bpg

Wall- 22ppg 10apg 5rpg 2.3spg 1bpg

The key to Wall is how he develops into a decent scorer, and whether his pass first abilities will even be needed on a team like the Wizards. If he becomes a shooting threat, he will be a great player. But, if the only area he can be dominant in is free throw line and below, he won't be as effective.

The problem with wanting Rose to develop more of an instinct of a true play making point guard is you will be directly taking away from what he does best in scoring. Much more often than not, Rose by scoring himself is going to end up scoring more efficiently than the person he is setting up. Asking Rose to maintain his scoring levels and abilities while asking him to produce more assists than he does right now is simply crazy. He would be an all time great if he could do both. He already puts out nearly 8 apg, so maintaining his scoring and increasing to say 9.5 or 10 would give him some ridonkulous numbers. Expecting Rose to become essentially an all time great in point guard numbers while expecting Wall to simply become a decent scorer to become equal is an unfair comparison of expectations in my eyes. Wall as a decent scorer and slightly improved play making is not equal to Rose last year.

I don't think expecting Rose to change much more than he has in raw output is necessarily wise because there isn't much room left for raw improvement. Rose would be much, MUCH better served in simply increasing his scoring efficiency and foul drawing abilities. This improvement is more impactful, fits his strength, and is entirely possible. Id honestly choose a Rose who puts up 27.5 ppg/ 7 apg on 57% ts% than see him go 23 ppg/ 10 apg on 53%ts%. I would prefer the scoring version of Rose much more than I would the true-pg version of Rose. A dominant, efficient scorer who can score well in the clutch is, in my opinion, always going to have more impact than an pass first, great play making player. Keep in mind this is irrelevant of position. If you take the point guard expectations/biases towards expectations of a position away, I think this distinction will hold true regardless of position.

[nitric0]

This Wall kid is getting overrated pretty quickly.

[Brenice]

This Wall kid is getting overrated pretty quickly.

What was the question asked? I don't think anybody has said they KNOW Wall will be better. They are answering the question. Sure he is overrated RIGHT NOW! But potential...his potential is not being overrated.

[7-Day Dray]

I can easily see Wall averaging 10 apg if his young supporting cast improves and everyone remains healthy.

[7-Day Dray]

Derrick Rose's ceiling is John Wall's floor...

I don't think Wall is going to score at Rose's volume, but will probably continue to dish more assists - though not at the level of Deron or Paul, I just don't see the same vision mastery in his passes. To a large extent, like Rose or Westbrook (though more advanced), he still uses the attention he derives from his athleticism and penetration to generate a lot of his assists, instead of the sort of idle dribble, shifty feet genius of Nash or Paul, who can dance in place and just exploit tiny openings or dupes they've manipulated the defense into.

On the passing though, I'd say don't sleep on Rose's potential to improve. I think a lot of people are truly uniformed about just how poor the Bulls offense was outside of Derrick last year, and if he gets even a competent SG, instead of a guy that should be waving a towel, he might start putting up passing numbers few expect. His per game assists already went up almost by 2 just getting a semi-broken down Carlos Boozer for one season.

Wall will have to improve his shooting to get his efficiency respectable. If he can follow Rose's rapid ascent in that area, it would be impressive. But that isn't so common.

Ultimately, I can see Wall getting to a point down the line where you might say, "I'd take Wall for this type of team, Rose for this type." Or sort of like the Paul vs Deron debate right now when both are fully healthy. But it is definitely far from assured.

Great post.

[7-Day Dray]

I definitely think Derrick Rose is a true PG though. He looks to set guys up when he has legit scorers around him. He doesn't have any great shot creators around him, and hasn't since Ben Gordon left and John Salmons played good after getting dealt to them mid-season. He showed to be a PG then, and he showed it at Memphis with CDR and Joey Dorsey and those guys. I will say this though, he looks to score alot and isn't a pure playmaker like a Rondo or Chris Paul, but that doesn't mean he's not a true PG. I think Rose is unselfish, and when/if Chicago gets more shot creators it will be apparent that he's a high quality distributor. Right now, he can get in the lane whenever he wants and he has improved his touch and shooting so, he uses it for a team that doesn't have anyone with near his level of ability to create offense.

[nitric0]

This Wall kid is getting overrated pretty quickly.

What was the question asked? I don't think anybody has said they KNOW Wall will be better. They are answering the question. Sure he is overrated RIGHT NOW! But potential...his potential is not being overrated.

I keep forgetting his floor is Derrick Rose. My fault.

[Fast Dont Fib]

The way i see it. Wall probably has the higher ceiling between the two, and i really have no restraint in saying it. But so many people, are so terrible at truly analyzing if/why someone will/won't reach suspected ceiling. So i'm not going to say whether or not Wall will be better than Rose. Lame to be assertive in picking a side, but Rerisen is right about alot of things. And he's probably right about this too. That it will be a matter of who the supporting casts are when deciding who you would take.

The one reason i would take Rose is that team centerpieces ( which people aim for #1 picks to be) need to be able to produce points at an elite level. And Rose is close to that level. Forget the talk about pg this, pg that. Don't care if not a soul in the world thinks Rose is a pg, or that scoring pg's can't win titles. He's truly worthy of being a team centerpiece. While some teams have proper scorers/support to win a title with what i predict Wall's playmaking to round out to, most teams do not. It's already proven that Rose can be plopped on a team built for defense, and handle enough of the offensive load, to at minimum. Be in the discussion for contention. Will Wall get there? Don't know, but we'll find out.

[The Rim Reaper]

The way i see it. Wall probably has the higher ceiling between the two, and i really have no restraint in saying it. But so many people, are so terrible at truly analyzing if/why someone will/won't reach suspected ceiling. So i'm not going to say whether or not Wall will be better than Rose. Lame to be assertive in picking a side, but Rerisen is right about alot of things. And he's probably right about this too. That it will be a matter of who the supporting casts are when deciding who you would take.

The one reason i would take Rose is that team centerpieces ( which people aim for #1 picks to be) need to be able to produce points at an elite level. And Rose is close to that level. Forget the talk about pg this, pg that. Don't care if not a soul in the world thinks Rose is a pg, or that scoring pg's can't win titles. He's truly worthy of being a team centerpiece. While some teams have proper scorers/support to win a title with what i predict Wall's playmaking to round out to, most teams do not. It's already proven that Rose can be plopped on a team built for defense, and handle enough of the offensive load, to at minimum. Be in the discussion for contention. Will Wall get there? Don't know, but we'll find out.

Good post. I liken Rose to Iverson in the way of impact and how the team is constructed. Like Iverson.. Rose is a volume scorer, good playmaker and absolutely fearless and natural leader. Like Iverson he's surrounded by a bunch of defensive minded players and coaches and gets as many shots as he wants with the offense running through him.

[kasino]

I don't think Rose is in no way a pass first PG. His temperament may not be of a usual scorer but its his goal to score.
Wall on the other hand is an pass first PG and I think the potential to be a better player. With expected all-defensive team defense, in time his scoring and understanding of the league will improve.
Rose will continue to be a great scorer and suspect a couple of 30ppg seasons
Essentially wat Rerisen said "I'd take Wall for this type of team, Rose for this type. Where I think if reached potential for both players Wall would be the victor.

If your team needs someone who can distribute the ball more, Wall is your guy.
If your team needs someone who can score anyway he wants, Rose is your guy.

Lets settle at that though Wall has a lot to prove still to be that type of guy.

true but the pg who makes his teammates better scorers might be more valuable than the pg who takes the majority of the shots.

[7-Day Dray]

Is that a serious question? Wall is a drive and dish PG. He was averaging 9+ apg at the all star break before he hit a wall right? He broke the assist record for a players first 5 NBA games of their career right? Yes Wall is a pass first player. He also averaged more assists than Rose despite being a rookie. If he had more efficient teammates I have 0 doubt in my mind he could of easily averaged 10+ apg as a rookie.

You call Wall's decline running into a wall, where I see it more as him coming back down to earth. He's going to be a great talent, but I don't think he'll ever get over 9apg. He'll be a 20ppg guy with around 8-9apg during his prime, but the difference will be that he'll be efficient, and his stats will actually impact his team's wins.

I don't think it was Wall coming back down to earth. The reason why his assists went down was because a lot of the Wizards scorers/shooter were injured/playing injured. Because of that, he had to take over the scoring load a few times.

Like I posted earlier, I can see Wall averaging 10 apg next season if everyone around improves and remains healthy.

[Elden Payton]

Derrick Rose's ceiling is John Wall's floor...

I don't think Wall is going to score at Rose's volume, but will probably continue to dish more assists - though not at the level of Deron or Paul, I just don't see the same vision mastery in his passes. To a large extent, like Rose or Westbrook (though more advanced), he still uses the attention he derives from his athleticism and penetration to generate a lot of his assists, instead of the sort of idle dribble, shifty feet genius of Nash or Paul, who can dance in place and just exploit tiny openings or dupes they've manipulated the defense into.

On the passing though, I'd say don't sleep on Rose's potential to improve. I think a lot of people are truly uniformed about just how poor the Bulls offense was outside of Derrick last year, and if he gets even a competent SG, instead of a guy that should be waving a towel, he might start putting up passing numbers few expect. His per game assists already went up almost by 2 just getting a semi-broken down Carlos Boozer for one season.

Wall will have to improve his shooting to get his efficiency respectable. If he can follow Rose's rapid ascent in that area, it would be impressive. But that isn't so common.

Ultimately, I can see Wall getting to a point down the line where you might say, "I'd take Wall for this type of team, Rose for this type." Or sort of like the Paul vs Deron debate right now when both are fully healthy. But it is definitely far from assured.

Great post.

[Elden Payton]

I'm gonna go with Wall, he has the potential to be BPGOAT imo.

Could be the black Stockton(yeah I said it) but a better scorer, give him an elite post scorer & watch the wins pile up.

Also Wall is a very good defender & could be the best shotblocking guard in the league in a couple of seasons.