RealGM Top 100 List #47

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Bob Lanier

HOF 1992
8x All-Star

Ray Allen

1x All-NBA 2nd
1x All-NBA 3rd
NBA Champion 200
10x NBA All-Star


Bill Walton

Hall of Fame 1993
MVP 1978
1x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-Defense 1st Team
Finals MVP 1977
2x NBA title 1977, 1986
2x All-Star
Sixth man of the year 1986


Alex English

Hall of Fame 1997
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
8x All-STar

Bob McAdoo

Hall of Fame 2000
MVP (1975)
1x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x NBA Champion (LAL)
5x All-Star
Rookie of the Year (1973)


Kevin Johnson

4x2nd Team All-NBA
1x3rd Team All-NBA
NBA Most Improved Player 1989
3xAll-Star

Sidney Moncrief

1x All-NBA 1st Team
4x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x Defensive Player of the Year
4x All-Defense 1st Team
1x All-Defense 2nd TEam
5x All-Star

Alonzo Mourning

NBA Championship 2006
1x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x Defensive Player of the Year
2x All-Defense 1st Team
7x All-Star


Chris Paul

1x1st Team All-NBA
1x2nd Team All-NBA
1x3rd Team All-NBA
1x1st Team All-Defense
2x2nd Team All-Defense
Rookie of the Year 2006
5xAll-Star


Elvin Hayes

Hall of Fame (1990)
NBA Champion (1978)
3× All-NBA First Team Selection
3× All-NBA Second Team Selection
2x All-Defense Second Team Selections
12× All-Star

[penbeast0]

Note: because I was unable to post this last night, we will go until 10PM Monday night this round

David Stern from IM votes:
Bob Lanier

Nominates:
Dennis Rodman

[penbeast0]

Voting Candidates
We have two PGs on the board. Chris Paul has only played 5 years in the NBA and only 2 really peak years but those two were as impressive as any small guard who has ever played in the NBA. Kevin Johnson had great numbers and played on some very good Phoenix teams although he never won a title but he has less accolades than Paul. Paul has better peak numbers than KJ but when you look at how elite the teams are, KJ's Phoenix teams were far more likely to be elite, even before Barkley joined them so I lean to KJ over Paul.

Moncrief has the peak advantage with equal offense and all-time GOAT man defense among the wings; but for only 5 seasons. Still, his 5 seasons were more dominant than Chris Paul's both on an individual and a team level. English and Allen give you a long consistent run on the wing with good efficiency and team values; just don't strike me as the difference maker that Moncreif was.

Then you have the bigs. Alonzo Mourning is similar but without the championships. Elvin Hayes is stronger statistically and a champion although known as a whiner more than a leader. Bob Lanier was the Amare Stoudamire of his era, good offense, weak defense, but without the accolades (never made a single All-NBA team). Bob McAdoo had the best numbers of the bunch (peak numbers anyway) but gives you little defense, didn't win as a star, and had major substance abuse and coachability issues. Bill Walton only gives you one season.

Vote: So, short peak, it's Moncrief over KJ; long peak it's Hayes over English. Moncrief's team was good offensively (2 top 6 years in his 5 year prime) and elite defensively (4 times out of 5 in top 2 defensively) despite rotating big men so I will vote for Sidney Moncrief, he was just that terrific for his short 5 year stretch.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote KJ

Nominate Pau

KJ and Zo are next on my board for votes. Both are right below everything you want at those positions. KJ could have just a little more cerebral playmaking and Zo could have just a bit more shot creation and passing. But otherwise, it's a superb bet having both and they are very capable of leading 6 SRS+ and 53 W+ teams. I don't think it makes any sense to say Paul's best 2 seasons are so much better than their 2 best that it covers the massive gap in the rest of their resumes

On Pau - He's a complete big man. Scores, passes, defends, has clear impact as both #1 and #2, came up big in the playoffs, has decent longevity. I like him more than Robert Parish as a player and I like prime Hill a bit more but not enough more to make up for the extra years

[penbeast0]

Point Guards -- Chauncey Billups was suprisingly efficient and solid on both ends of the court once he got established in Detroit. Nate Archibald was the most dominant PG left for 4 years, but was neither terribly efficient nor played any defense.

Wings -- On the wings, there are still great scorers left . . . the more spectacular but less consistent Bernard King, Mark Aquirre, or David Thompson, or the statistically most efficient Adrian Dantley or the early NBA stars like Paul Arizin, Sam Jones, and Hal Greer -- I lean to Sam Jones.

Big Men -- At PF, Bobby Jones and Dennis Rodman may be the greatest pair of defensive forwards but Jones, while extremely efficient, didn't score or rebound that much while Rodman had no offense and for 1/2 his career, left his man at times to pad his rebounding stats at the team's expense. On the offensive end, Amare Stoudamire and Chris Webber just have too many issues to rank above Jones or Rodman.

The centers left all have some issue with their games. Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. Wes Unseld and Dikembe Mutombo weren't scorers but were consistent players for years; Unseld brings GOAT picks and outlet passing, Deke great shotblocking. Leaning Wes Unseld or Dikembe Mutombo

Playoffs between these. Billups had the big playoff run and earned the nickname Mr. Big Shot, Sam Jones was the lead scorer on a lot of those Celtics champions, Dennis Rodman has 5 rings despite several meltdowns, Wes Unseld took the Bullets to their only championship as Finals MVP to go with his regular season MVP.

NOMINATE WES UNSELD

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Paul

Nomination: undecided

btw, Unseld is very much on my mind, and it's never actually been clear to me that Hayes should be ranked above him.

[Snakebites]

Vote: Kevin Johnson

A terrific and at times underrated point guard who, as Mufasa said, he had no real gaps in his game and few gaps in his resume. Really not much worse than Paul at his peak and with a considerably longer peak. People forget that the Suns were a near contender BEFORE adding Charles Barkley to their team, and Kevin Johnson is the primary reason for that.

Nominate: Grant Hill

Same reasons as before. Simply a tremendous talent and versatile player with a stupendous defining year in 1997 and 4 other years that placed him at the NBA's elite. For more details see previous thread.

[Laimbeer]

Can someone explain why intangibles are largely dismissed here, but in the case of Hayes they're prominently mentioned?

[therealbig3]

Vote: Chris Paul
Nominate: Grant Hill

ElGee has mentioned Marques Johnson, and Snakebites made a pretty good Hill case last thread. I see Hill similar to Marques Johnson, but I think Hill's a little better.

[drza]

Vote: Alonzo Mourning
Nominate: Dennis Rodman

[Doctor MJ]

Can someone explain why intangibles are largely dismissed here, but in the case of Hayes they're prominently mentioned?

I don't accept your premise that we dismiss intangibles. Russell got ranked at #2 for crying out loud.

For me the intangibles aren't the issue so much as that he's like the perfect storm of volume stat overrating. Inefficient shooting and massive minutes played paint a picture of him that makes me think it quite plausible that when people kept giving Unseld awards over Hayes, they might not have actually been idiots.

[ElGee]

vote: Chris Paul
nominate: Marques Johnson

Going to talk in more detail about Marques when I get more time. I think it's really important that people compare him to Sidney Moncrief:

(1) Their "longevity" is comparable
(2) Peak is comparable (I side with Marques' peak)
(3) Marques has a history of raising his game in the playoffs, in the big moments, against the very best players (eg Dr. J, Bird) and Moncrief does not.

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Bill Walton
Nominate: Anfernee Hardaway

[therealbig3]

vote: Chris Paul
nominate: Marques Johnson

Going to talk in more detail about Marques when I get more time. I think it's really important that people compare him to Sidney Moncrief:

(1) Their "longevity" is comparable
(2) Peak is comparable (I side with Marques' peak)
(3) Marques has a history of raising his game in the playoffs, in the big moments, against the very best players (eg Dr. J, Bird) and Moncrief does not.

Where do you have Grant Hill compared to Marques Johnson?

[Fencer reregistered]

I'll start out by repeating my votes from the last thread:

List: Bill Walton
Nominate: Wes Unseld

[FJS]

Vote McAdoo
Nomination Worthy

[ElGee]

vote: Chris Paul
nominate: Marques Johnson

Going to talk in more detail about Marques when I get more time. I think it's really important that people compare him to Sidney Moncrief:

(1) Their "longevity" is comparable
(2) Peak is comparable (I side with Marques' peak)
(3) Marques has a history of raising his game in the playoffs, in the big moments, against the very best players (eg Dr. J, Bird) and Moncrief does not.

Where do you have Grant Hill compared to Marques Johnson?

Hill 6 spots behind him. I think Marques has a better all-around game and I'm more inclined to draft him because of that and a slight longevity edge. Otherwise, I'd give Hill's 97 season a slight nod over Marques' 79 season. Good comparison on your part IMO.

[PTB Fan]

Hm.. could i join this?

[lukekarts]

Vote: Bill Walton. Amazing peak, I'm not bothered it was short, it was title winning impact when he was healthy and that's more than any player left in the comparison.

Nominate: Wes Unseld

[PTB Fan]

For the thousand time, could i vote? xD