RealGM Top 100 List #60

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Nate Thurmond

Hall of Fame 1985
2x All-Def 1st Team
3x All-Def 2nd Team

Penny Hardaway

2x 1st team All-NBA
1x 3rd team All-NBA
4x All-Star

Robert Parish

Hall of Fame 2003
1x 2nd team All-NBA
1x 3rd team All-NBA
4x NBA Champion (once as deep bench with Bulls)
9x All-Star

Pau Gasol

1x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-NBA 3rd team
2x NBA Champion
4x All-Star

Bernard King

2x All-NBA 1st team
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
4x All-Star

Marques Johnson

1x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
5x All-Star

Manu Ginobili

2x All-NBA 3rd
3x NBA Champion
Sixth Man of the Year 2008
2x All-Star

Dennis Rodman

2x All-NBA 3rd Team
5x NBA Champion
2x Defensive Player of the Year
7x All-Defense 1st Team
1x All-Defense 2nd Team
2x All-Star


Grant Hill

1x 1st Team All-NBA
3x 2nd Team All-NBA
7x All-Star
Rookie of the Year

[penbeast0]

On the wings we have Grant, Manu, Marques, and Penny . . . of them, Bernard King was the most dominant, Grant Hill the most well rounded, and Manu was the biggest winner and probably the best defender to go with his offense. If anyone wants to put together a good comp, I might change my mind but right now I rank them:
1 MGinobili
2 GHill
3 B King
4 MJohnson
5 AHardaway


For the bigs, Parish has the consistency, Rodman the rings, and Thurmond the best defense, but Pau Gasol has the best all-around game.
1 Gasol
2 Rodman
3 Parish
4 Thurmond

Gasol v. Manu -- 2 guys with similar resumes; I lean a bit to Gasol but am willing to be convinced the other way.

VOTE Pau Gasol

[therealbig3]

I'm thinking that Elton Brand should be getting some attention at this point as well. From where I sit, he looks like a legitimate 20/10 post presence, who was also a very good defensive player. Based on his small sample of playoff games, I see a very good playoff performer. The 6-year RAPM study has him at +2.3, slightly ahead of Pau Gasol, who is getting a lot of attention.

I mean, in another thread, I couldn't really decide between prime Brand and prime Gasol, so what exactly is the reason that Gasol is getting voted in and Brand isn't even getting mentioned for nominations?

I asked this question in that thread: Is Brand a lot closer to the Duncan/KG/Dirk tier than we give him credit for, but we didn't notice him simply because he was stuck in a bad situation with the Clippers?

From 00-07, Brand's prime, his averages (606 games; ~76 games a season):

20.3 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.7 apg, 2.1 bpg, 0.9 spg, 2.5 TOpg, .558 TS%

And again, Brand from 06-11 finished ahead of Gasol in the multi-year RAPM study, even though that's mostly outside of Brand's prime, and that's mostly the best part of Gasol's career.

[therealbig3]

I'll be sticking with the same votes as last time, but I might switch to Brand unless someone can point out a reason that I'm missing that's causing him to be very overlooked.

Vote: Marques Johnson
Nominate: Vince Carter

[penbeast0]

Point Guards -- I like Billups's consistency and efficiency, not up for any of the others
1. Chauncey Billups
2. Nate Archibald
3. Tim Hardaway
4. Mark Price
5. Dennis Johnson

Shooting Guards -- Not really feeling any of the top guys yet but here's who I'm thinking about
1 Joe Dumars
2 Vince Carter
3 David Thompson
4 Chris Mullin
5 Hal Greer

Shooting Forward -- a top of great candidate left, in no particular order
Adrian Dantley
Billy Cunningham
James Worthy
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins

Power Forward -- I really can't see Shawn Kemp with all the outstanding forwards left, he was immature, foul prone, had a low basketball IQ and really wasn't that dominant. Heck, I'd think long and hard about bangers like Paul Silas or Buck Williams before Kemp. Schayes had all sorts of awards but like Cousy, I just don't see the numbers standing up although he was the greatest free throw shooting big ever -- better than Dirk or Bird even. Elton Brand was injured several times and was more a big numbers on weak teams guy but I'd consider him -- but I'd still rather have a consistent two way presence like Bobby Jones, Larry Nance, or Shawn Marion:
Bobby Jones
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Amare Stoudamire
Terry Cummings

Centers: starting to run a little short here
Dikembe Mutombo
Mel Daniels
----------?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming

NOMINATE BOBBY JONES
-- arguably the most consistent and versatile defender outside of the dominant centers ever . . . 10 1st team All-Defense in his first 10 years is unmatched by anyone, ever and an efficient and heady offensive player with great intangibles.

After that . . .
2. Chauncey Billups?
3. OPEN TO ARGUMENTS

[penbeast0]

I've run out of votes on Fencer's list:

NOMINATE Dolph Schayes

[FJS]

Vote Marques
Nomination James Worthy

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Penny Hardaway
Nominate: Shawn Kemp

[drza]

Vote: Manu Ginobili
Nominate: Mutombo

[penbeast0]

1 MGinobili
2 GHill
3 B King
4 MJohnson
5 AHardaway

I would really like to know from FJS what it is that YOU think Marques Johnson does better than any of the other 4 wings and why it is special enough to make him the choice here.

Longevity he played 7.5 seasons of good ball

Scoring, he only had one season of over 22ppg, good but not great

Efficiency, he was in the .580 range in his prime, possibly his strongest attribute but not Adrian Dantley

Rebounding, his rebound rate was 10 to 11 consistently, good but not great

Playmaking, his assist rate was in the 3 to 4.5 rate consistently, good but not great

Defense, his reputation is average to above average, never any recognition for it

Playoffs, he had some big series and some flops; his career playoff PER is a full point lower than his regular season PER which is pretty normal

Intangibles, he seemed a decent and articulate guy but had some substance abuse issues as well as the short career; not a fiery player or one that had a rep as a locker room leader.

Comparatively, Manu is a bit less of a scorer but more efficient, about equal as a rebounder by position, a better playmaker, a better defender, and more of a leader -- although Manu suffers from lower minutes

Grant Hill a roughly equal prime scorer who also has a 25ppg season and several 20+ though in a less balanced attack. His efficiency in his prime is lower, his rebounding a little better. But Hill is a clearly superior playmaker, a better defender and has a much better rep as a team leader before his injury. (And showed the ability to take on a different role as a more efficient off ball shooter after the injury)

King is a higher volume scorer with a 30+ppg season and multiple seasons better than Marques's second best one, a bit more efficient as well during his peak, a bit less rebounding (averaging about a 9rr rather than 10-11) and a lesser playmaker, more inconsistent defensively and a selfish rep plus more substance issues -- still for two players who made their rep as scorers, King is clearly the better there

Penny, I do have below Marques. His prime is too short (only 3 years one of which was his rookie year), he was spectacular but inconsistent. He was a PG by role but didn't score as much, rebound as well (though for a guard he was outstanding), or play great defense either. And, I wasn't impressed by his leadership; it seemed more about getting highlight reels for Penny (or Lil Penny) than about team first.

[lorak]

vote: Manu
nominate: Bobby Jones

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Ginobili

As I've said: At this point Ginobili's likely had more minutes as an elite player than anyone else as strange as that sounds.

Holding off on nominations.

Just want to make a plea though for people to try to at least provide commentary each thread. Our induction last thread resulted in the single greatest rise from nomination-to-induction in this entire project, and it happened with basically no persuasion. This is a shame.

[Dr Positivity]

Pau Gasol was starting to get a bit more traction last thread so I'll go back to voting for him

Vote Pau Gasol

Nominate Vince Carter

Don't know what to say about the Jones vote in, certainly clutch play matters and after all we did vote in Miller and Allen some time ago who have similar games, but to me part of what made those guys more valuable was the 3pt line, if their shots were long 2s that would have made them Rip. Although that may seem unfair, I am judging players by the rules they played in and it's hard for me to get that much behind a fairly one dimensional jumpshooter in an era that didn't favor them impact wise as much as it does for sharpshooters now - when you've got guys like Hill, Manu, Gasol, Carter on the board who score as well as Jones while having far more game elsewhere. I think it's worth it take a step back and ask "Wait a second, is Jones even a better scorer than Gasol and Hill and Manu? Because if he's not, how does he bridge the gap to match Gasol being a defensive anchor and Hill and Manu being playmakers?"

Actually, I probably have Lou Hudson ahead of Sam Jones. Hudson from 70 to 74 averaged 26/5/3.5, basically Jones peak year for an extended time, on better %s than Jones - Altough the league average was higher in the 70s, I'm fairly certain the biggest reason he shot better is because from what I can tell, Hudson is right there with Allen and Miller in terms of having a GOAT jumpshot. Like Miller and Allen he's probably one of the more valuable very late career stars too from the value of parking him outside and drawing defenders out, and can fit with ball dominant stars. He's also an A+ character guy so for some people worried about Vince and Melo attitude wise that could be a plus. I think it'd be reasonable for him to get a nomination soon since we all like aces shooter scorers

[ElGee]

vote: Marques Johnson
nominate: Chris Webber

Going to go with Webber for now...as I've said I'm not sure what to make of him but I'll throw him out. My next nominee I'm much more sure of and if he gets a couple vote, I'll switch it to David Thompson.

Also kind of surprised that in Penbeast's overview he didn't mention Deron Williams, Bill Sharman, Lenny Wilkens, Ben Wallace, Jerry Lucas, Lou Huson, Kevin Durant, Cliff Hagan, Bobby Dandridge (!) or George McGinnis. The thought of Shawn Marion over Dandridge makes me cry a little.

[penbeast0]

Both Marion and Dandridge were good defenders and scorers . . . roughly equal on those areas. Each had issues with whining their way out of town, Marion in Phoenix and Dandridge in Milwaukee, then played a key role on a championship team (or didn't you notice that Lebron had a bad finals -- mainly guarded by Marion). The question is then whether Dandridge's playmaking and handles, which were good but not particularly memorable, makes him more of an all-time great than Marion's rebounding which is truly outstanding for a SF. I rate Marion a bit higher than Dandridge -- another guy in the same area is Jamaal Wilkes.

Oh, and I only named the top 5 of so that I was considering -- you are absolutely right that I should have named Jerry Lucas -- Wilkens was sort of like Mark Jackson in that he was good for a long time without ever stepping up to be great; Deron hasn't proved enough yet. For SG, Sharman might go ahead of Greer, I have to relook at that. At SF, Hudson was a great pure shooter but with no defense or secondary skills though for a long time while Durant and Hagan (like Dandridge and Wilkes) are pretty reasonable names to make a case for if you want. McGinnis blew out too fast and was too sloppy for me; Wallace I love but was he really that good?

I just wanted to get a few new names out there; most of the ones you mention are good ones too.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Bernard King

Nominate: Vince Carter

That same ol' thing...

[ronnymac2]

I'm not going to be on the forums this week, so I'll post a list. I'll put it here and in the top-100 general thread.

Vote:

Bernard King
Marques Johnson
Manu Ginobili
Grant Hill
Penny Hardaway


Nominate:

Vince Carter
Billy Cunningham
Chauncey Billups
Adrian Dantley
Deron Williams


Johnson or King should get in next. I'm perfectly fine with Marques getting in before Bernard.

Ginobili over Hill for longevity and because while Ginobili isn't a volume producer/creator in the playoffs, Hill isn't either. Penny over Gasol and Parish, because at his peak, he's a legit number 1 option imo. He's an offensive anchor- an awesome one.

For the noms, I obviously think more of VC than most, but for ****'s sakes, Vince is closer to Iverson and McGrady and Allen and Pierce than the players he's in the company of now. This is getting ridiculous.

Admittedly, I forgot about Billy Cunningham, too. Kangaroo kid was the sixth man on a GOAT team in 1967. Then he was all-nba first team for three straight years at the forward slot. The other forwards those years? Baylor, Havlicek, Hawkins. He was a good playoff performer, too. Great all-around player.

I honestly might take peak Chauncey over peak Stockton. I'm not even **** kidding.

Dantley is getting underrated. 1984, 1987, and 1988 are great years for him.

I voted Deron Williams as a top-5 player in the NBA during the RPOY project. Dude has a nice prime and is a legit playoff performer.

[lukekarts]

I'm going to vote Pau Gasol; it was either him or Manu but I think Pau is a more impactful overall player, partially due to his position but also his minutes played.

I'm going back to nominating James Worthy as he was a big game player who never had the chance to fill the stat sheet other than when Kareem got injured. Still, I'll happily take one Finals game of 36/16/10 over anyone else I could nominate.

[MarJJMar]

Unreal by which standard Tracy McGrady was voted in the top 40 or something yet Grant Hill who was just simply better and had a longer and more productive career despite the injuries still is still not voted on.

Hilarious

[ElGee]

Unreal by which standard Tracy McGrady was voted in the top 40 or something yet Grant Hill who was just simply better and had a longer and more productive career despite the injuries still is still not voted on.

Hilarious

Care to explain in what way Grant Hill was better and "more productive" in his career than Tracy McGrady?

We've had 30 threads of discussion on it basically, but you'd be in a small minority here. Just based on some not-so-precise starting points, Hill has 99 WIn shares and 5 all-nba teams. McGrady has 96 and 7 all-nba teams.

Is there someone everyone in the group missed?