RealGM Top 100 List #86

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Jack Sikma

NBA Champion 1979
1x All-Defense 2nd
7x All-Star


Gus Williams

1x 1st team All-NBA
1x 2nd team All-NBA
NBA Champion 1979
2x All-Star

Bill Laimbeer

2x NBA Champion
4x All-Star


Mel Daniels

2x ABA MVP
4x 1st Team All-ABA
1x 2nd Team All-ABA
3x ABA Champion
ABA Rookie of the Year 1969
7x ABA All-Star


Elton Brand

Rookie of the Year 00
2x All-Star


Brad Daugherty

1x NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Star


Larry Nance

1x NBA All-Def 1st team
2x NBA All-Def 2nd team
3x All-Star


Bill Sharman

Hall of Fame 1976
4x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
4x NBA Champion
8x All-Star


Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

Lots of Bigs: Jerry Lucas and Brad Daugherty were high efficiency/weak defense bigs. Daugherty was a terrific post passer as well while Lucas had stretch the floor range, was one of the best rebounding forwards ever, and had great court intelligence. When their contemporaries were voting for HOF, Lucas went in over Willis Reed who didn't make the cut.

Elton Brand and Larry Nance were high efficiency/good defense bigs. Brand had some injury concerns and has played most of his career for bad teams; Nance is the greatest non-center shotblocker of all time and the NBA's 1st dunk champion (over Dr. J among others) but didn't get many accolades in his day for whatever reason.

Mel Daniels and Bill Laimbeer were winners and . . . well . . . thugs. Two of the most physical guys to ever play. Daniels was a 2 time MVP and 3 time champion in the ABA whose career was over by age 30. Laimbeer a 2 time champion whose dirty tricks and whining to the refs made him the most hated man in the NBA. Both terrific rebounders, Daniels scored up to 20/g usually from within 10 feet; Laimbeer scored a lot less but spread the floor with his range. Jack Sikma could also fit this spot though he wasn't as physical.


At guard, Bill Sharman was the prototype spot up shooter for the early Celtics and extremely efficient for his day. Gus Williams was the leading scorer on a Seattle team that went to two finals, winning one title.

By the numbers AND by accolades, it's clearly Lucas. In terms of peak play, to me it's probably Daniels since the ABA he played in was probably as good or better than Sharman's 50s NBA plus he had TWO MVPs.

I will vote for JERRY LUCAS -- all those great offenses in Cinncinnati had either Lucas or Jack Twyman with Oscar and while Oscar was the lead, Lucas was the only other offensive star for most of them plus his defense was good enough to win a title starting at center for the defensive ensemble Knicks in 73.

[penbeast0]

Point Guards -- a lot of solid players but no one who leaps out
Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker?
Norm Van Lier?

Shooting Guards -- Dumars needs to go soon
Joe Dumars
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Paul Westphal?
Walter Davis?

Shooting Forward -- Probably the deepest spot left:
Shawn Marion
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony
Bob Dandridge
Jamaal Wilkes?
Willie Wise?

Power Forward -- Not sure how much to value Paul Silas/BuckWilliams/Bill Bridges types
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire
Paul Silas/Dave DeBusschere/Maurice Lucas/Buck Williams -- the bangers

Centers: Getting a bit thin
Neil Johnston -- accolades
Walt Bellamy -- statistical peak
Yao Ming -- the best modern center left

Looking at the candidates -- Joe Dumars and Shawn Marion are leading my short list. Can't see Hardaway or Mullin over Dumars at guard or Cummings, Carmelo, or Brand over Marion at forward. The only challenge for Sikma might be 50's star Neil Johnston who is another great O, weak D kind of guy or
Cliff Hagan who was one of the few guys to consistently up his game in the playoffs.

NOMINATE Shawn Marion

[therealbig3]

Vote: Sharman
Nominate: Melo

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Daugherty
Nominate: Richmond

[Dr Positivity]

I'm inclined to go with Elton Brand here. Good scorer, rebounder, blocks shots, has one absolutely huge season. Sikma and Williams are close but on that note, I don't feel people are going to be voting for them so soon after nomination anyways so my vote would be wasted

Vote Brand

Nominate Melo

[bastillon]

Jerry Lucas is a stat-padder with poor defense
Sharman was a white gunner that looked well in terrible era but wasn't good enough to rise above his peers in terms of efficiency and with extremely poor guard play and racist league vast majority of white players I see him as someone who was above average because of these specifics
Gus Williams is an unknown to me
Mel Daniels, with the way he was being dominated by Gilmore, I doubt he would've been able to compete at NBA level as all-star caliber player

these 4 - stat padding Lucas, unknown Gus and Sharman/Daniels being good only compared to the peers they played against - are out for me.

considering:
Sikma, Laimbeer, Nance - based on longetivity
Brand, Daugherty - with shorter careers but strong peaks

Daugherty didn't have super strong peak of Brand and played less impactful seasons - he's out
Sikma, Laimbeer and Nance are tough to solve. personally I would go with Nance but given how close it is, I'll go against my rule and vote for peak

vote Elton Brand

as for nomination, these are guys on my radar:
Yao
Pressey
Sheed
Bellamy and DeBusschere (easily better than Sharman)
Marion
Ritchmond
Horace Grant

I'll go with Sheed again. much better player than Ben Wallace who was voted in already and arguably best player on championship team and key member of THREE other squads that were extremely close to win (Blazers 00, Pistons 05, Celtics 10). main knocks on him are rebounding and efficiency - rebounding was poor but he still impacted defense extremely well; his efficiency was one of the best among big men pre Detroit and it dropped so drastically in Detroit because of his role next to Ben Wallace playing away from the basket but setting screens and creating spacing. on top of that GREAT longetivity.

[lukekarts]

VOTE: Sikma (although to be fair its so close here I'm fairly open)

Nominate: DeBusschere

[lorak]

vote: Sharman
nominate: DeBusschere

[penbeast0]

Daniels was basically Alonzo Mourning with more of a horizontal game, particularly rebounding, and less of a vertical game, particularly shotblocking. You weren't impressed by either's size or skill set until you saw them play and realized just how much more they wanted it than most of the guys they were playing against. Truly a pair of physical warriors that you can build a winning team around . . . only Daniel's team won 3 titles and he won 2 MVPs.

Yes, it was lesser competition but so was Shaq in the 00s or Connie Hawkins/Dolph Schayes who we have long since voted in and I'm more impressed by the 71 ABA where Daniels was MVP (Rick Barry, Dan Issel, Joe Caldwell, Zelmo Beaty, etc.) than by the 55 NBA that Schayes won his title in (West All-Star starters = Andy Phillip, Jim Pollard, Andy Wanzer, Larry Foust, George Yardley).

[bastillon]

I don't think Schayes and Hawk were right selections at that point, but following that logic we're kind of obliged to vote for Mel Daniels as well, so good point penbeast. but Pacers were a great team overall, we shouldn't give Daniels superstar credit IMO. Alonzo Mourning was definitely not a good comparison though, because Daniels wasn't a very strong defender.

[Laimbeer]

Vote Sikma
Nominate DeBusschere

[penbeast0]

Daniels was a very good defender (in a thuggish), his main limitations were offensive as he was not a great post passer and had an inconsistent jumper which his first couple of seasons he shot too much. Until Slick Leonard became coach, drew a line on the floor 10 feet from the basket and told Daniels he was running laps every time Daniels released the ball outside that line . . . that helped. Defense and rebounding were his calling cards . . . as they'd have to be to win on a front line with Bob Netolicky (later George McGinnis) and Roger Brown. Pacers didn't get another good defender until Buse and Hillman came in (Don Sidle was more an offensive big too) and by then Daniels was slowing down.

No idea why his career burned out so before he hit 30; haven't heard the normal story of knee injuries . . . my guess is not keeping in shape made him lose that ultra-aggression that was his calling card and without it, he slipped to ordinary and had too much pride to want to be just another banger. But that's just a guess.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Elton Brand

Nominate: Carmelo Anthony

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Brand

Nom: Mullin

[therealbig3]

My count:

Vote:

Brand-5 (Dr Mufasa, bastillon, ronnymac2, Doctor MJ, therealbig3)

Sikma-2 (lukekarts, Laimbeer)

Daugherty-1 (JordansBulls)

Lucas-1 (penbeast0)

Sharman-1 (DavidStern)




Nominate:

Debusschere-3 (lukekarts, DavidStern, Laimbeer)

Melo-3 (therealbig3, Dr Mufasa, ronnymac2)

Richmond-1 (JordansBulls)

Sheed-1 (bastillon)

Mullin-1 (Doctor MJ)

Marion-1 (penbeast0)

[therealbig3]

BTW, I switched my vote to Brand.

[penbeast0]

Well, I'll switch my nomination to Carmelo to break the tie . . .

Merry Christmas :Santa: