The Lebron Thread

[samueldestroyer]

his hairline as declined as well

[tha_rock220]

Lost athleticism or not, he's not just a jump shooter now. LeBron has turned himself into a beast of a post up player this season.

[starvinmarvin17]

you guys are hilarious, especially especially ig2 and the side show mel dude. I have never seen a post by ig2 that didn't have Lebron or athletic decline on it whether its a positive or negative post about his game. ig2 let me give you credit where credit is due since that's what you seem to want. its his 9th year, with a lot of mileage and not missing many games. Played under stupid Mike Brown his whole career who doesn't understand minutes distribution always. Kobe looked like an old dog tonight because Mike Brown has been playing him too much and running through him too much. Lebron athleticism has definitely declined a litlle bit but he is still the most athletic player overall in the game, he is definitely stronger and bigger than his last season in Cleves Land. His overall game now is way better mainly his jump shot and post-game. Athleticism wise he's still nuts especially if youve seen the chase down tonight.

[toodles23]

Thoughts on tonight guys?

Looked like the same story. I'll stress that Lebron is currently at his best when he works at setting up his close to mid range shot and mixes it in with good looks he can get at the basket

EDIT: I'm thinking of just changing the thread title, because this looks like its turning into the nightly discuss Lebron's play thread

I liked that floater he made a couple times tonight, that's a nice option if he can't get all the way to the rim, but otherwise it was pretty typical for him - noticeably improved jumper/skillset, but regressed athleticism. He blew a couple easy layups in the first half, one against Artest where he beat him off the dribble in the midpost but didn't have any explosiveness to finish (no way is that not a dunk from Cleveland Lebron) and a nice spin move in the post only to result in another blown layup. In the second half he missed a couple layups on drives with the explosiveness clearly missing.

[SideshowBob]

I liked that floater he made a couple times tonight, that's a nice option if he can't get all the way to the rim, but otherwise it was pretty typical for him - noticeably improved jumper/skillset, but regressed athleticism. He blew a couple easy layups in the first half, one against Artest where he beat him off the dribble in the midpost but didn't have any explosiveness to finish (no way is that not a dunk from Cleveland Lebron) and a nice spin move in the post only to result in another blown layup. In the second half he missed a couple layups on drives with the explosiveness clearly missing.

Just caught the full game highlights again. It's remarkable how difficult it's become for him to finish at the basket off of drives. I'd want to see a breakdown of his at rim FG% in the halfcourt as opposed to on the break

[NO-KG-AI]

Really don't see it. There are still plays here and there that are so ridiculous that you can tell he's still right where he's always been. I think he has tempered his aggressiveness some, and people get those things confused.

[SideshowBob]

Really don't see it. There are still plays here and there that are so ridiculous that you can tell he's still right where he's always been. I think he has tempered his aggressiveness some, and people get those things confused.

See, I haven't seen anything of the sort since he got to Miami. Maybe a few select plays, but nothing to me has stood out, while on the other hand, in 09 and 10 he had literally at least one WTF play a game, which at the time I was so accustomed to seeing that they never stood out. Now when I look back at old games, it stands out much more.

I think the issue is still that a lot of people (not saying you specifically) are comparing this current Lebron to the one we saw from 04-08. That's not the guy I'm talking about, there isn't AS MUCH of a difference between Miami Lebron and 04-08 Lebron. It's the last two Cleveland years I'm talking about; in those years, he was just uber-effective at creating points for himself in the halfcourt, centering around his drives. The one we see now is only effective that way when he gets a full head of steam in transition.

I don't have access to the Synergy numbers of the past few years, but I think their transition splits would give a fair justification of what I'm talking about

[NO-KG-AI]

So you're saying the 09-10 LeBron was the athletic standout of the bunch? I just can't see how his athleticism would move to another level for 2 years, then drop down again.

I think he had more WTF plays, I agree, I just don't think he has less now because he's lacking the ability. I thought the move to Miami was really damaging to his sense of urgency on the floor, and that's why they lost in the finals. He lets things happen, instead of making things happen.

[SideshowBob]

So you're saying the 09-10 LeBron was the athletic standout of the bunch? I just can't see how his athleticism would move to another level for 2 years, then drop down again.

I think he had more WTF plays, I agree, I just don't think he has less now because he's lacking the ability. I thought the move to Miami was really damaging to his sense of urgency on the floor, and that's why they lost in the finals. He lets things happen, instead of making things happen.

Perhaps it is mental. It would explain why he moves around very differently around the court, though the added weight could also have a lot to do with it. Take a look at that Nets game video that was posted on the first page. He looks like he's bouncing and springing around the court, he's beating guys off the dribble just with his agility, and he's not just blowing through defenders, he's able to burst in one direction, stop on a dime, and then burst in another direction just as fast.

Nowadays, he moves around clumsily, and struggles to show the same ability to change direction with precision. If he's not going at his man from the half court line with a full head of steam in a straight line, he has difficulty getting into the paint and getting a good look at the basket. Once he gets there, he doesn't display the same explosion off of one foot to be able to finish a good number of his shots.

What has it resulted in? Lots of missed shots at the rim, and lots of offensive fouls where before he could finish. Look at how his TO rate and raw turnovers have spiked since coming to Miami, despite handling the ball quite less. A good portion of those are offensive fouls that he wasn't getting called for earlier, because he's often going into the defender at the rim now, rather than over.

[IG2]

That's not the guy I'm talking about, there isn't AS MUCH of a difference between Miami Lebron and 04-08 Lebron.

Little confused here. Are you saying there isn't much difference in terms of IMPACT between 04-08 LeBron and Heat-LeBron, or there isn't much difference in athleticism between the 2 versions? Because the latter would be a weird opinion to have. Are you saying LeBron's athleticism radically improved after his 5th season in the league? And then reverted back to his 04-08 days as a Heat?

04-08 LeBron was just as much of a freak as '09 and '10 LeBron. Maybe even more so than '10 LeBron. I thought he lost a teensy bit that season. LeBron's historical '09 and '10 seasons had more to do with the big improvements in his jumper than anything body-related.

[SideshowBob]

That's not the guy I'm talking about, there isn't AS MUCH of a difference between Miami Lebron and 04-08 Lebron.

Little confused here. Are you saying there isn't much difference in terms of IMPACT between 04-08 LeBron and Heat-LeBron, or there isn't much difference in athleticism between the 2 versions? Because the latter would be a weird opinion to have. Are you saying LeBron's athleticism radically improved after his 5th season in the league? And then reverted back to his 04-08 days as a Heat?

04-08 LeBron was just as much of a freak as '09 and '10 LeBron. Maybe even more so than '10 LeBron. I thought he lost a teensy bit that season. LeBron's historical '09 and '10 seasons had more to do with the big improvements in his jumper than anything body-related.

The former. Maybe that's the confusion. My assessment is the same as yours. Athletically I think he was similar in 09 and 10 as the years before, but as you said, the improvement in the jumper (as well as the natural development in skills and IQ) pushed him over the top.

I don't think Lebron's IMPACT right now is at the same level as 09 and 10, but a step above 04-08, which is why you're seeing a lot of people talking about this being his best season so far. IMO if he continues to refine his style of play and can renew his confidence in crunch time situations, I think he still has the ability to have a similar level of impact as 09 and 10, just not in the same way.

Did that help or am I confusing you more

[Jordan23Forever]

I was convinced of an athletic decline after last season and early this season, but last night against LA he looked REALLY quick/explosive and lean. Did he lose weight? Maybe that helped if so. Haven't seen him look that quick in over a year.

[SideshowBob]

It looks like he did. One of the Heat trainers came out and said that he was at 265 going into this season. It's hard to say.

James, who Downs measured at 265 pounds and having a 5.2 percent body fat

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/10513/how-wade-big-three-stayed-big-in-lockout

[toodles23]

I was convinced of an athletic decline after last season and early this season, but last night against LA he looked REALLY quick/explosive and lean. Did he lose weight? Maybe that helped if so. Haven't seen him look that quick in over a year.

He did look very quick last night, but the explosion was missing on his attempted finishes at the rim. Look at what he was capable of doing in 2008:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsBRbuAevCU[/youtube]

Look at his drive 1:30, for example - I'm not sure he's physically capable of making that play anymore. He's also just noticeably quicker and more explosive overall, it's evident throughout the video. Here's last night's highlights for comparison:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kewlshHOqs[/youtube]

[Jordan23Forever]

Here's last night's highlights for comparison:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kewlshHOqs[/youtube]

What's not shown in this video are a couple of plays where he made the drive and was fouled. I'm thinking of one iso against Artest in the first half on the left wing where he just BLEW by him from the triple-threat as if Artest wasn't there. Some of the best explosion from a stand-still that I've ever seen from Lebron.

[IG2]

I don't think Lebron's IMPACT right now is at the same level as 09 and 10, but a step above 04-08

That still rests on his 4th qtr play IMO. I cannot rank current LeBron over his '06 and '08 self, even though he's almost twice as skilled. He's just too much of a question mark in the 4th qtr. I do agree though that IF he can dramatically improve on his late-game play, then he easily usurps his '06 and '08 self and has an argument for being as good as '09 and '10, but I don't see that ever happening. The way I see it, LeBron's late-game excellence stemmed from his insane physical ability. That's where his confidence came for, his ability to play a high % game with the pressure on. He's a far cry from being that athlete today, and just doesn't have the self-belief to embrace the jump shooter inside him when the pressure builds. We have now seen it for all of last season and the 13 games he's played this season. Don't see why it would suddenly change.

Did that help or am I confusing you more

I got it

[SideshowBob]

That still rests on his 4th qtr play IMO. I cannot rank current LeBron over his '06 and '08 self, even though he's almost twice as skilled. He's just too much of a question mark in the 4th qtr. I do agree though that IF he can dramatically improve on his late-game play, then he easily usurps his '06 and '08 self and has an argument for being as good as '09 and '10, but I don't see that ever happening. The way I see it, LeBron's late-game excellence stemmed from his insane physical ability. That's where his confidence came for, his ability to play a high % game with the pressure on. He's a far cry from being that athlete today, and just doesn't have the self-belief to embrace the jump shooter inside him when the pressure builds. We have now seen it for all of last season and the 13 games he's played this season. Don't see why it would suddenly change.

And I can definitely see where you're coming from. I suppose the 2nd and 3rd round of the playoffs encouraged me a little, and I wasn't AS phased by his poor showing in the Finals. But, we're going to have to see. As you said, he needs to embrace the jumpshot or it's probably going to be a struggle.

Also, it'd be interesting to see if he cuts his weight down. Is it really that simple? Is the added muscle mass really what's holding him back? We can't know for sure unless he sheds it

Did that help or am I confusing you more

I got it

[IG2]

Also, it'd be interesting to see if he cuts his weight down. Is it really that simple? Is the added muscle mass really what's holding him back?

He needs to shed 5-10 more pounds. Get back to his 06-09 playing weight, where I believe he weighed 255-260 pounds. Now, that won't mean he will become Cleveland-LeBron, but he'll be close, as a late-20's guy should be. Majority of them retain 90% of their athleticism into their late 20's. Current LeBron I'd say is about 80-85% the athlete he was a Cavalier, a notable improvement from last season, where I'd say he was about 75%. If he drops 5-10 more pounds next offseason, then we'll never cry about LeBron's athleticism again.

As much as we harp about current LeBron's athleticism, I think we can both agree he's significantly better than last season. He just looked hopeless last year. But he clearly dropped 8-10 pounds coming into this season(should've been 15). He moves quite a bit better now and as MJ23Forever pointed out, looks noticeably leaner too.

[SideshowBob]

He needs to shed 5-10 more pounds. Get back to his 06-09 playing weight, where I believe he weighed 255-260 pounds. Now, that won't mean he will become Cleveland-LeBron, but he'll be close, as a late-20's guy should be. Majority of them retain 90% of their athleticism into their late 20's. Current LeBron I'd say is about 80-85% the athlete he was a Cavalier, a notable improvement from last season, where I'd say he was about 75%. If he drops 5-10 more pounds next offseason, then we'll never cry about LeBron's athleticism again.

As much as we harp about current LeBron's athleticism, I think we can both agree he's significantly better than last season. He just looked hopeless last year. But he clearly dropped 8-10 pounds coming into this season(should've been 15). He moves quite a bit better now and as MJ23Forever pointed out, looks noticeably leaner too.

Yeah, he's been much better than last year. I like the quickness I've seen from him and he is certainly moving better than last year. If he drops a few more this offseason, it'd be great.

Also, good to know that we're not the only one's noticing this as J23Forever said that he saw the same signs last year.

[EscapoTHB]

He shouldn't lose anymore weight. His strength is a huge advantage right now in the post. He's like Shaq down there. I think he'd get hurt more if he lost too much weight, because of the pounding he takes.