Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever.

Moderators: penbeast0, trex_8063, PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier

questionmark
Junior
Posts: 350
And1: 29
Joined: Jun 28, 2011

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#81 » by questionmark » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:02 pm

Timmy was a beast that year. Absolutely. But Parker was good that year. Of course not anywhere near his prime, but he was good nontheless. And Duncan had bad games as well and was abled to rely on his teammates like in Game 6 of the WCF where Stephen Jackson has a great game and combined with a great bench performance they beat the Nowitzki-less Mavs. So its not like he didn't have any help at all.

That doesn't change the fact that to me, this Spurs team was the most carried team to ever win a championship, just ahead of last years Mavericks and the 94 Rockets. This kind of achievement, to carry a team to a championship, that they shouldn't have been abled to even compete for, is something that really pushes those three ahead of those players they compared with in all-time discussions.
EntropyPR
Banned User
Posts: 6,329
And1: 2,381
Joined: Dec 12, 2011

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#82 » by EntropyPR » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:08 pm

So Simmons is getting lambasted for having an opinion? :-?
C-izMe
Banned User
Posts: 6,689
And1: 15
Joined: Dec 11, 2011
Location: Rodman's Rainbow Obamaburger

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#83 » by C-izMe » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:33 pm

questionmark wrote:Timmy was a beast that year. Absolutely. But Parker was good that year. Of course not anywhere near his prime, but he was good nontheless. And Duncan had bad games as well and was abled to rely on his teammates like in Game 6 of the WCF where Stephen Jackson has a great game and combined with a great bench performance they beat the Nowitzki-less Mavs. So its not like he didn't have any help at all.

That doesn't change the fact that to me, this Spurs team was the most carried team to ever win a championship, just ahead of last years Mavericks and the 94 Rockets. This kind of achievement, to carry a team to a championship, that they shouldn't have been abled to even compete for, is something that really pushes those three ahead of those players they compared with in all-time discussions.

I have the most impressive wins ranked Barry, Olajuwon, Duncan, Dirk.
Stick88
Ballboy
Posts: 27
And1: 0
Joined: Jan 22, 2012

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#84 » by Stick88 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:35 pm

I would love to see Dirk have a teammate as good as the other PFs you guys have mentioned had. Dirk's best teammate through out the years has been Jason freaking Terry. Debating about who's better between KG and Dirk, well to put it simple, KG has lost more head to head battles against Dirk and Dirk won it all as the main guy, so I put Dirk ahead of him. And since people are determined by how many rings they have won, Dirk should be ahead of Malone and Barkley. There's a good argument for any of those guys to be tops, but you can't discredit what Dirk has done throughout the years especially now that he has a ring. Without question though, Timmy is the greatest of all time.
Balki-B
Sophomore
Posts: 232
And1: 34
Joined: Nov 29, 2010

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#85 » by Balki-B » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:37 pm

mysticbb wrote:
Balki-B wrote:Although Barkely and Malone are statistically in the discussion, they are also both automatically disqualified because they've never won a ring.


Swap Malone or Barkley with McHale. Do you think the Celtics would have won even one championship less with either Karl Malone or Charles Barkley instead of McHale on the team? I would argue that they would have been improved with such a move. And that's what should be evaluated when we are talking about players, not some rings someone won, because the circumstances were good for him. Brian Cardinal did not become a better player, only because he now has won a championship. Neither did Dirk Nowitzki or Jason Kidd.

Karl Malone played great basketball, had a huge impact even really late in his career. Charles Barkley was probably the best offensive power forward ever, that should count for something. Look at how they played basketball and how much of an impact the individual players had on that, not at championships won.

Imagine Nowitzki suffers more than just a minor injury to his finger in the first game of the finals last year, imagine he had suffered a broken wrist and would have been out. No championship for the Mavericks. What would be the argument here? Would Nowitzki now be a worse player? The logic behind the "ring argument" is completely absurd, given the fact that it is influenced by circumstances a lot. Putting someone like McHale ahead of Barkley or Malone, because McHale won some rings as a 2nd/3rd fiddle is just wrong.


Please don't confuse filtering by championships won as the defacto scale on to which to measure greatness. My argument is simply, all things being equal, then you can turn to championships and their roll on those clubs to further differentiate. Barkley never led a team to a championship. Neither did Malone. Dirk has. So, if stats, long term success, etc are all equal, then I don't think it's too big a jump to say Dirk > Malone or Barkley. Comparing these three are much more clear cut as it could be said that Dirk, Barkely and Malone were all Alphas on their clubs. (Malone 1a with Stock being 1b). There's absolutely no way Barkley or Malone win with Dallas last year.

McHale...he's much more tricky to rate simply because he wasn't the Alpha on his club, but I would say that Bird doesn't win the same amount of championships with Malone or Barkley as he does with McHale - in part because of system, but also because McHale defended AND had a post game.








I'm not discounting their greatness. In fact, their longevity should be applauded, much like Dirk's. But applying your swap-out scenario, the Mavs do not win a championship with either Malone or Barkley as their Alpha. And in fact, I don't think Bird has the same success with Malone or Barkley as he did with McHale.
GrandTheftRondo
General Manager
Posts: 8,804
And1: 8,756
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#86 » by GrandTheftRondo » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:40 pm

Bill Simmons is a clown.
User avatar
Spottieottie
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,866
And1: 50
Joined: Jul 25, 2010

Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#87 » by Spottieottie » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:45 pm

Malone would have punished any front line he faced last year in the playoffs. Let's see Dirk beat Michael Jordan for a championship... Lol
Mr Grant Hill
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,907
And1: 102
Joined: Jun 25, 2011
 

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#88 » by Mr Grant Hill » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:49 pm

Dirk american, college, black = Top12
Dirk german, white = Top 25

face it
Wake up, girl. I wanna go surfing.
Stick88
Ballboy
Posts: 27
And1: 0
Joined: Jan 22, 2012

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#89 » by Stick88 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:53 pm

Spottieottie wrote:Malone would have punished any front line he faced last year in the playoffs. Let's see Dirk beat Michael Jordan for a championship... Lol


Debating rather Malone could have or haven't is a moot point because we will never know the answer to that. What we do know is that Dirk went through LMA, Kobe, KD, and the 3 Miami Heat to win the championship, so that's all the matters. Dirk won a ring, Malone never did.
questionmark
Junior
Posts: 350
And1: 29
Joined: Jun 28, 2011

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#90 » by questionmark » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:56 pm

C-izMe wrote:
questionmark wrote:Timmy was a beast that year. Absolutely. But Parker was good that year. Of course not anywhere near his prime, but he was good nontheless. And Duncan had bad games as well and was abled to rely on his teammates like in Game 6 of the WCF where Stephen Jackson has a great game and combined with a great bench performance they beat the Nowitzki-less Mavs. So its not like he didn't have any help at all.

That doesn't change the fact that to me, this Spurs team was the most carried team to ever win a championship, just ahead of last years Mavericks and the 94 Rockets. This kind of achievement, to carry a team to a championship, that they shouldn't have been abled to even compete for, is something that really pushes those three ahead of those players they compared with in all-time discussions.

I have the most impressive wins ranked Barry, Olajuwon, Duncan, Dirk.


IDK, that Barry championship in 75 was in the midst of the ABA/NBA split and the overall talent level was not good enough to really rank this championship that high. I mean the ABA that year had players like Irving, Issel, McGinnis, Gilmore and Moses Malone. These guys not playing in the NBA is just huge to the level of competition.

In terms of competition i would even rank the '11 Mavs as the highest, because the Spurs only played one quality opponent with the Lakers, while the Mavs lost Dirk after Game 3 in the WCF and the Nets were just no competition for anybody coming out if the west. The Rockets didn't have to play the Jordan-Bulls, so you will never know if Hakeem would have been abled to beat the GOAT as well.
Dirk however had to go through almost every great player this league had to offer with one of the most difficult roads to the title ever. That really stands out.
User avatar
Spottieottie
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,866
And1: 50
Joined: Jul 25, 2010

Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#91 » by Spottieottie » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:58 pm

Stick88 wrote:
Spottieottie wrote:Malone would have punished any front line he faced last year in the playoffs. Let's see Dirk beat Michael Jordan for a championship... Lol


Debating rather Malone could have or haven't is a moot point because we will never know the answer to that. What we do know is that Dirk went through LMA, Kobe, KD, and the 3 Miami Heat to win the championship, so that's all the matters. Dirk won a ring, Malone never did.

Why is that all that matters? Why shouldn't we attempt more in depth analysis when attempting to compare apples and oranges and declaring ultimate, finite declarations of superiority?
User avatar
[GR]
RealGM
Posts: 16,435
And1: 1,947
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
       

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#92 » by [GR] » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:58 pm

Stick88 wrote:I would love to see Dirk have a teammate as good as the other PFs you guys have mentioned had. Dirk's best teammate through out the years has been Jason freaking Terry. Debating about who's better between KG and Dirk, well to put it simple, KG has lost more head to head battles against Dirk and Dirk won it all as the main guy, so I put Dirk ahead of him. And since people are determined by how many rings they have won, Dirk should be ahead of Malone and Barkley. There's a good argument for any of those guys to be tops, but you can't discredit what Dirk has done throughout the years especially now that he has a ring. Without question though, Timmy is the greatest of all time.

You are underrating Terry.
Image
User avatar
Winsome Gerbil
RealGM
Posts: 15,021
And1: 13,086
Joined: Feb 07, 2010

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#93 » by Winsome Gerbil » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:59 pm

JordansBulls wrote:http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7666048/nba-trade-value-part-2


10. Dirk Nowitzki


I can't remember another NBA superstar having his personality transformed by an NBA title; if it happened with, say, Hakeem Olajuwon, I don't remember reading about it. Dirk's next few years will be interesting for historical purposes: In my basketball book, I ranked Bird, Duncan, Havlicek, Baylor, Erving, Pettit, Malone and Barkley as the greatest forwards of all time (in that order). Dirk already leapfrogged the last three; he's about to jump the next three; and if that happens, suddenly he's one of the best 12 or 13 players of all time by any calculation. He's also the greatest international basketball player ever — and actually, you could argue that the distance between Dirk and the next best foreign guy (Gasol, Ginobili) is more like a chasm.


Meaning only Duncan is considered better now according to Simmons.


Yes Bill Simmons, noted basketball expert and all that.

We listen to this man for the laughs, not the insight.
dice
RealGM
Posts: 42,897
And1: 12,494
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#94 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:00 pm

questionmark wrote:Timmy was a beast that year. Absolutely. But Parker was good that year. Of course not anywhere near his prime, but he was good nontheless. And Duncan had bad games as well and was abled to rely on his teammates like in Game 6 of the WCF where Stephen Jackson has a great game and combined with a great bench performance they beat the Nowitzki-less Mavs. So its not like he didn't have any help at all.

tim raised his game in the playoffs to 25/15/5. killin' folks. high point of his career. and nowitzki did play the first 3 games of the WCF (spurs won 2 of 3). but the chips definitely fell in the spurs' favor. defending champ lakers dysfunctional, two toughest western competitors squared off in semis, dirk gets injured, eastern conference terrible
the donald, always unpopular, did worse in EVERY state in 2020. and by a greater margin in red states! 50 independently-run elections, none of them rigged
dice
RealGM
Posts: 42,897
And1: 12,494
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#95 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:10 pm

Mr Grant Hill wrote:Dirk american, college, black = Top12
Dirk german, white = Top 25

face it

grant hill is the last person i expect to hear this from
the donald, always unpopular, did worse in EVERY state in 2020. and by a greater margin in red states! 50 independently-run elections, none of them rigged
Elden Payton
RealGM
Posts: 14,899
And1: 2,591
Joined: Apr 23, 2009

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#96 » by Elden Payton » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:20 pm

dice wrote:
Mr Grant Hill wrote:Dirk american, college, black = Top12
Dirk german, white = Top 25

face it

grant hill is the last person i expect to hear this from


It is true though.
dice
RealGM
Posts: 42,897
And1: 12,494
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#97 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:30 pm

Sik Infant wrote:
dice wrote:
Mr Grant Hill wrote:Dirk american, college, black = Top12
Dirk german, white = Top 25

face it

grant hill is the last person i expect to hear this from


It is true though.

dirk nowitzki is nowhere near a top 12 all-time player. to suggest that saying so is some kind of reverse racism is just :roll:
the donald, always unpopular, did worse in EVERY state in 2020. and by a greater margin in red states! 50 independently-run elections, none of them rigged
Stick88
Ballboy
Posts: 27
And1: 0
Joined: Jan 22, 2012

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#98 » by Stick88 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:39 pm

Spottieottie wrote:
Stick88 wrote:
Spottieottie wrote:Malone would have punished any front line he faced last year in the playoffs. Let's see Dirk beat Michael Jordan for a championship... Lol


Debating rather Malone could have or haven't is a moot point because we will never know the answer to that. What we do know is that Dirk went through LMA, Kobe, KD, and the 3 Miami Heat to win the championship, so that's all the matters. Dirk won a ring, Malone never did.

Why is that all that matters? Why shouldn't we attempt more in depth analysis when attempting to compare apples and oranges and declaring ultimate, finite declarations of superiority?


In depth analysis of what? Exactly what kind of in depth analysis did you provide when you first stated Malone would have punished any front line he faced last year and you'd have like to see Dirk beat Jordan for a championship? You have no evidence of what would have happened in either case. All we can go by is what we know, and that is that Dirk won a championship as the main guy, but Malone never could, even when he was with the Lakers.

I'm not saying Malone is a scrub, but people are so quick to point to rings as arguments when ranking players, so why all of a sudden discredit Dirk's ring when he won it as a main guy?
SunsRback4Good
RealGM
Posts: 28,740
And1: 11,247
Joined: May 13, 2011
     

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#99 » by SunsRback4Good » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:48 pm

Duncan, Malone, Dirk..... the rest.
Elden Payton
RealGM
Posts: 14,899
And1: 2,591
Joined: Apr 23, 2009

Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#100 » by Elden Payton » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:01 am

@dice

Dirk is passing rungs on the all-time list as we speak.

Dirk when its all said & done will most likely be the second best PF of all time & top 15 overall.

Return to Player Comparisons