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Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever.

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Post#16 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:20 pm by Kobe2ndFiddle

PippenAintEasy wrote:
Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:McHale
Barkely
Malone
Garnett
Duncan (yes he's a PF)


so which one of these guys is Dirk better than ? I'll wait all day.

Mchale easily. Barkley maybe. Malone, probably not.

is this a joke ?

I am now starting to realize that any superstar who wins a championship in this era will become GREATLY overrated. Even my favorite player has fallen victim to the media and fans overrating him to high heavens.


This bullshh has to stop immediately, Dirk is not better than ANYONE I listed, at all.
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Post#17 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:20 pm by Bertrob

richboy wrote:He probably just forgot KG. I would say that Dirk is in the conversation. He has a strong case to be pretty much equal to KG in his career. Many people have KG as the second best PF ever. I would take Dirk over Malone. IMO Karl Malone the most un clutch player in league history maybe. I might take him over Barkley as well.


:o Does him not being clutch, a term that is subject to anyone's interpretation, cancel out his massive career achievements?
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Post#18 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:23 pm by Chocobanana

so he had
1)bird
2)duncan
3)Havlicek
4)Baylor
5)Erving
6)Pettit
7)Malone
8)Barkley
9)Nowitzki
and has dirk just jumping the last 3. if he leadfrogs 3 more, doesnt that put him at 3rd best?
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Post#19 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:23 pm by Jeff23

5DOM wrote:
Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:McHale
Barkely
Malone
Garnett
Duncan (yes he's a PF)


so which one of these guys is Dirk better than ? I'll wait all day.


McHale?


Agreed.

There is just no way Dirk is better than KG, Barkley or Malone.
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Post#20 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:24 pm by Kobe2ndFiddle

the fact that Dirk was referred to as a "bust" early on in his career should disqualify him from even being mentioned in the top 3.
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Post#21 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:26 pm by Sedale Threatt

Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:the fact that Dirk was referred to as a "bust" early on in his career should disqualify him from even being mentioned in the top 3.


What difference does that make? He's been an elite player for 12 years now.
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Post#22 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:28 pm by Chosen01

Doctor MJ wrote:In other words, Simmons doesn't really think like a logical, rational analyst...which we already knew. He's still funny.
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Post#23 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:28 pm by richboy

PippenAintEasy wrote:
Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:McHale
Barkely
Malone
Garnett
Duncan (yes he's a PF)


so which one of these guys is Dirk better than ? I'll wait all day.

Mchale easily. Barkley maybe. Malone, probably not.


Can't put Mchale. He doesn't pass at all. He the greatest post player in league history. I'm not sure that is good enough to get him the number 2 spot.
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Post#24 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:28 pm by Blame Rasho

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:the fact that Dirk was referred to as a "bust" early on in his career should disqualify him from even being mentioned in the top 3.


What difference does that make?


I know...

Kobe was air balling threes vs the Jazz as a 19/20 year old... that thus eliminates him from greatness discussion using your logic.

I don't agree with Simmons, but his logic is just as bad if not worse than him. At least Simmons is at least articulate in his points instead of the hey look at me and what I say.
It is illogical to use logic on an illogical person.
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Post#25 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:30 pm by Kobe2ndFiddle

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:the fact that Dirk was referred to as a "bust" early on in his career should disqualify him from even being mentioned in the top 3.


What difference does that make? He's been an elite player for 12 years now.

Garnett has been elite since 99', has a championship like Dirk, an MVP like Dirk plus a DPOY.

The only case you can make for Dirk over Garnett is FMVP. Dirk is not a top 2 PF, no way in hell.
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Post#26 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:34 pm by Sedale Threatt

Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:Garnett has been elite since 99', has a championship like Dirk, an MVP like Dirk plus a DPOY.

The only case you can make for Dirk over Garnett is FMVP. Dirk is not a top 2 PF, no way in hell.


I'm not trying to make a case for him over Garnett. Duncan (who I consider a center), Malone and very probably Barkley either. But McHale? He was not on Dirk's level, especially when longevity is taken into account.

Besides, I want to hear the logic of why Dirk, because he struggled as a 20-year-old rookie playing in a foreign country, should be automatically excluded from the discussion.
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Post#27 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:35 pm by Balki-B

Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:McHale
Barkely
Malone
Garnett
Duncan (yes he's a PF)


so which one of these guys is Dirk better than ? I'll wait all day.


Although Barkely and Malone are statistically in the discussion, they are also both automatically disqualified because they've never won a ring. You can argue the absurdity of this, but in comparing players you have to look at distinguishing categories like championship rings to further separate the best of the best. This leaves us with:

McHale
Garnett
Duncan
Nowitzki

McHale has multiple championship rings, but at the very best was second banana to Bird. Garnett, although dominate for years statistically, will never be regarded as the leader of the championship Celtics. Dirk was alpha on his club, has had years of 50 win seasons in Dallas and has played in 2 finals with one finals MVP to boot. Ba-da-bing, ba-da-boom, that's how you get to Diggler at number 2.
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Post#28 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:36 pm by dyukcs

Simmons has made his case for this elsewhere, he's not saying Dirk is now the 2nd best PF, but that Dirk will probably produce at this level for a few years and career wise will be in the mix. Dirk has been the best playoff performer out of Barkley, Malone, and KG (not just counting the championship run), is the most efficient scorer of the bunch, and seems like he'll beat Barkley and KG for longevity. Obviously you can make cases for each of those guys over Dirk, but it's not so ridiculous.
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Post#29 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:37 pm by richboy

bertrob wrote:
richboy wrote:He probably just forgot KG. I would say that Dirk is in the conversation. He has a strong case to be pretty much equal to KG in his career. Many people have KG as the second best PF ever. I would take Dirk over Malone. IMO Karl Malone the most un clutch player in league history maybe. I might take him over Barkley as well.


:o Does him not being clutch, a term that is subject to anyone's interpretation, cancel out his massive career achievements?


Karl Malone to me is one of the most overrated players in league history. Him being not clutch is just the icing on the cake of what is a career of overrated play. People have a tendency to forget history. The Utah Jazz were often a first round and out playoff team because of Malone. So for me this isn't close. Karl Malone is a great player who had a really long prime. Dirk is one of the most difficult covers in league history. When he is going I have no clue who can guard him. Karl Malone is a better version of Amare.
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Post#30 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:37 pm by Kobe2ndFiddle

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:Garnett has been elite since 99', has a championship like Dirk, an MVP like Dirk plus a DPOY.

The only case you can make for Dirk over Garnett is FMVP. Dirk is not a top 2 PF, no way in hell.


I'm not trying to make a case for him over Garnett. Duncan (who I consider a center), Malone and very probably Barkley either. But McHale? He was not on Dirk's level, especially when longevity is taken into account.

Besides, I want to hear the logic of why Dirk, because he struggled as a 20-year-old rookie playing in a foreign country, should be automatically excluded from the discussion.

The post were I mentioned his "bust" monicker, was just an overzealous remark by me, I'm in disbelief by Simmons comment still lol.

but as long as we can agree that Dirk is not top 2 then that is fine.
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Post#31 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:38 pm by JordansBulls

Doctor MJ wrote:In other words, Simmons doesn't really think like a logical, rational analyst...which we already knew. He's still funny.

What do you mean? Have you read his book at all?
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Post#32 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:43 pm by Tubal

i.e.

"Gee, Grantland sucks and readership is really falling. I better write something controversial so some of the forums pick it up and I get more hits".
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Post#33 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:44 pm by Doctor MJ

JordansBulls wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:In other words, Simmons doesn't really think like a logical, rational analyst...which we already knew. He's still funny.


What do you mean? Have you read his book at all?


I mean that he tends to think top down too much. One end result that could have happened differently through no fault of the player in question causes massive changes in how he ranks a player. That's ridiculous. Any player comparison that doesn't seek to disentangle the performance of a player from that of the rest of his team is simply doing it wrong. It's essentially taking the real rankings and then throwing dice to mix them up.
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Post#34 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:45 pm by richboy

Doctor MJ wrote:In other words, Simmons doesn't really think like a logical, rational analyst...which we already knew. He's still funny.


Actually I think Simmons historical knowledge of basketball is really impressive. Of course KG fans hate Bill Simmons. Mainly because he said that 20 years from now stat guys are going to try to convince that KG was better than Duncan. He was wrong because they have already started. When in reality KG may not have been better than Dirk. The idea of Dirk going down as second best is not crazy. Especially if he plays another 5 good years and found a way to get another title. Even 1 more trip to the finals.
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Post#35 Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd great
Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:45 pm by RichardsRival3

JordansBulls wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:In other words, Simmons doesn't really think like a logical, rational analyst...which we already knew. He's still funny.

What do you mean? Have you read his book at all?


I think he means, if it can't be found in a box score, then it isn't logical or rational.
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