Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever.

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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#46 » by richboy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:13 pm

mysticbb wrote:
Balki-B wrote:Although Barkely and Malone are statistically in the discussion, they are also both automatically disqualified because they've never won a ring.


Swap Malone or Barkley with McHale. Do you think the Celtics would have won even one championship less with either Karl Malone or Charles Barkley instead of McHale on the team? I would argue that they would have been improved with such a move. And that's what should be evaluated when we are talking about players, not some rings someone won, because the circumstances were good for him. Brian Cardinal did not become a better player, only because he now has won a championship. Neither did Dirk Nowitzki or Jason Kidd.

Karl Malone played great basketball, had a huge impact even really late in his career. Charles Barkley was probably the best offensive power forward ever, that should count for something. Look at how they played basketball and how much of an impact the individual players had on that, not at championships won.

Imagine Nowitzki suffers more than just a minor injury to his finger in the first game of the finals last year, imagine he had suffered a broken wrist and would have been out. No championship for the Mavericks. What would be the argument here? Would Nowitzki now be a worse player? The logic behind the "ring argument" is completely absurd, given the fact that it is influenced by circumstances a lot. Putting someone like McHale ahead of Barkley or Malone, because McHale won some rings as a 2nd/3rd fiddle is just wrong.



Who is Malone running PNR with on the Celtics. Lets not ignore the fact Malone was being fed by one of the greatest point guards in league history. Are the Celtics going to run 50 PNR with Malone when they have Bird and Parish as well.

Just to note if you ask Charles Barkley he would say Kevin Mchale is better than him and Karl Malone.
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#47 » by narmerguy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:19 pm

Gosh everyone is on Dirk's nuts after he wins one championship. Suddenly his fadeaway is God's gift to basketball but he's had that shot for years and somehow teams seemed just fine beating him. The dude had a good run, I agree, awesome job, phenomenal player.

Better than Duncan? Wtf. Better than KG? Let's consider offense and defense here. Dirk has been historically great on only one side of the ball. But whatever, I know in three years no one will be mentioning Dirk in this conversation because everyone's going to be on to whoever else the last championship winner was.
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#48 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:21 pm

Therapist wrote:
Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:
Therapist wrote:Dirk was too underrated before his championship.

MVP voting says you're wrong.


Come on now.. You're gonna sit there and have Kobe in your username and use MVP voting as a metric to measure someone's abilities?

he's not suggesting the MVP votes are an indicator of ability. he's saying that MVP votes are a measure of media respect. and by that criteria, dirk was not underrated before winning a title

dirk has been elite or near-elite offensively and poor in all other areas of the game
barkley was even better offensively and an excellent rebounder
malone was also better offensively, a strong rebounder and good defensively, playing at an all-star level 'till age THIRTY-SEVEN

dirk's ring does not bridge the gap between him and barkley, let alone him and malone. and the fact that dirk coasted early in the season after winning a ring does not lead me to believe he's ever gonna get there

malone
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#49 » by Therapist » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:23 pm

dice wrote:he's not suggesting the MVP votes are an indicator of ability. he's saying that MVP votes are a measure of media respect. and by that criteria, dirk was not underrated before winning a title

dirk has been elite offensively and poor in all other areas of the game


I can't say that Dirk isn't poor in all other areas of the game but he won the MVP award because he was the best player on the best team. I just didn't know that anyone really puts much thought into it (the voters) as to who gets the award. So I guess I don't consider it as a measure of media respect moreso as a here's your reward for having the best record.
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#50 » by Tubal » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:23 pm

1. Malone
2. Barkley
3. Duncan (gets extra points for 4 rings)
4. KG
5. Dirk

I think Duncan gets overrated because he lead some talented Spurs teams. He's a career 20/11 guy.
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#51 » by richboy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:27 pm

narmerguy wrote:Gosh everyone is on Dirk's nuts after he wins one championship. Suddenly his fadeaway is God's gift to basketball but he's had that shot for years and somehow teams seemed just fine beating him. The dude had a good run, I agree, awesome job, phenomenal player.

Better than Duncan? Wtf. Better than KG? Let's consider offense and defense here. Dirk has been historically great on only one side of the ball. But whatever, I know in three years no one will be mentioning Dirk in this conversation because everyone's going to be on to whoever else the last championship winner was.


Dirk defense has been underrated. One of the reasons why IMO Dirk is very close if not better than KG is because KG offense is overrated. That KG who in his prime was taking a ton of shots just to score mid to low 20s. KG suffers historically because people penalize him for being on mediocre Minnesota teams. If he was on better teams I'm not sure he would have gotten the 18-20 shots per game he was getting. Great defensive player but more of a Scottie Pippen level offensive talent.
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#52 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:28 pm

Therapist wrote:he won the MVP award because he was the best player on the best team. I just didn't know that anyone really puts much thought into it (the voters) as to who gets the award. So I guess I don't consider it as a measure of media respect moreso as a here's your reward for having the best record.

i'll agree with that, but i still think he was appropriately respected, in part due to that MVP
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#53 » by Therapist » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:28 pm

dice wrote:
Therapist wrote:he won the MVP award because he was the best player on the best team. I just didn't know that anyone really puts much thought into it (the voters) as to who gets the award. So I guess I don't consider it as a measure of media respect moreso as a here's your reward for having the best record.

i'll agree with that, but i still think he was appropriately respected, in part due to that MVP


Fair enough, I would probably change my mind now and say that he was appropriately rated or just barely underrated before the championship but it's getting to the point where he could be grossly overrated post title.
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#54 » by JunkYardSubs » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:30 pm

Duncan is better than Garnett guys
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#55 » by C-izMe » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:31 pm

Tubal wrote:1. Malone
2. Barkley
3. Duncan (gets extra points for 4 rings)
4. KG
5. Dirk

I think Duncan gets overrated because he lead some talented Spurs teams. He's a career 20/11 guy.

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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#56 » by Archerbro » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:31 pm

Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:
PippenAintEasy wrote:
Kobe2ndFiddle wrote:McHale
Barkely
Malone
Garnett
Duncan (yes he's a PF)


so which one of these guys is Dirk better than ? I'll wait all day.

Mchale easily. Barkley maybe. Malone, probably not.

is this a joke ?

I am now starting to realize that any superstar who wins a championship in this era will become GREATLY overrated. Even my favorite player has fallen victim to the media and fans overrating him to high heavens.


This bullshh has to stop immediately, Dirk is not better than ANYONE I listed, at all.


not sure you can build around mchale. He had a good low post game, and honestly his potential was there for top pf he just never got there.

Barkley-this one's tough. I take Dirk because he was in tip shape and did everything he could possibly do for a championship. Barkley repeatedly was out of shape.

Barkley's peak imo is higher than Dirk's, but Dirk's career overall is better.

Garnett-this one has been debated for the ages. Garnett is the better defensive player, and has as much as dirk. But there's something to be said winning it as "the guy." the thing abuot the 08 run, simmons even attests to-he realized Garnett could never be a #1 guy on a championship team.

I don't know, he got close in 04-but the fact that dirk's teams have never missed the playoffs since 00, and finals mvp -is arguable.
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#57 » by Archerbro » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:34 pm

mysticbb wrote:
Balki-B wrote:Although Barkely and Malone are statistically in the discussion, they are also both automatically disqualified because they've never won a ring.


Swap Malone or Barkley with McHale. Do you think the Celtics would have won even one championship less with either Karl Malone or Charles Barkley instead of McHale on the team? I would argue that they would have been improved with such a move. And that's what should be evaluated when we are talking about players, not some rings someone won, because the circumstances were good for him. Brian Cardinal did not become a better player, only because he now has won a championship. Neither did Dirk Nowitzki or Jason Kidd.

Karl Malone played great basketball, had a huge impact even really late in his career. Charles Barkley was probably the best offensive power forward ever, that should count for something. Look at how they played basketball and how much of an impact the individual players had on that, not at championships won.

Imagine Nowitzki suffers more than just a minor injury to his finger in the first game of the finals last year, imagine he had suffered a broken wrist and would have been out. No championship for the Mavericks. What would be the argument here? Would Nowitzki now be a worse player? The logic behind the "ring argument" is completely absurd, given the fact that it is influenced by circumstances a lot. Putting someone like McHale ahead of Barkley or Malone, because McHale won some rings as a 2nd/3rd fiddle is just wrong.


agreed, but imo that Game 2 towards the end changed everything............and that in game 6 he played like absolute crap and "closed the game"
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#58 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:35 pm

richboy wrote:Dirk defense has been underrated

well, you could make an argument for mediocre, anyway

KG....Great defensive player but more of a Scottie Pippen level offensive talent.

that's a pretty good analogy. both had excellent all-around games with the exception of being merely pretty good offensively. scottie 6 rings as clear #2 guy, garnett with 1 as #1 guy. interesting player comparison
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#59 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:38 pm

Therapist wrote:
dice wrote:
Therapist wrote:he won the MVP award because he was the best player on the best team. I just didn't know that anyone really puts much thought into it (the voters) as to who gets the award. So I guess I don't consider it as a measure of media respect moreso as a here's your reward for having the best record.

i'll agree with that, but i still think he was appropriately respected, in part due to that MVP


Fair enough, I would probably change my mind now and say that he was appropriately rated or just barely underrated before the championship but it's getting to the point where he could be grossly overrated post title.

agreed

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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#60 » by Ron Harper » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:39 pm

Jay10 wrote:isn't duncan better than garnett?



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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#61 » by thewhat » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:40 pm

Dirk Nowitzki is as much a power forward as Tim Duncan is. :lol:
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#62 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:40 pm

Archerbro wrote:there's something to be said winning it as "the guy." the thing abuot the 08 run, simmons even attests to-he realized Garnett could never be a #1 guy on a championship team.

garnett was the #1 guy on that team as much as bill russell was the #1 guy on those old celtic title teams. not the guy you want with the ball in his hands, but the heart of the team
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#63 » by dice » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:42 pm

Ron Harper wrote:
Jay10 wrote:isn't duncan better than garnett?



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just 'cause of the rings
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#64 » by lazfa199 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:46 pm

:roll: at people in here are trying to put dirk down on defense and not saying anything about Barkley

when Barkley played it was obvious he never cared much about defense and thought going after rebounds made him a good defender, constantly letting his man take jumpers to try and collect a rebound.

Barkley is a hypocrite for calling players for damaging the level of play in the nba, when all he cared about was getting a new contract
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Re: Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever. 

Post#65 » by gold_leader64 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:49 pm

Funny, since even during Dirk's time he wasn't even superior to his supposed elite peers: Duncan, KG, and Webber at their peak, but we are supposed to believe he's #2 all time?

Dirk is one of the best all time SHOOTERS in league history. But outside of that, he rarely helps his team by dominating other areas of the game, and doesn't really make his teammates better. How is he better than Pettit, let alone a guy like Jerry Lucas? Dirk is great for what he does, and while that happens to be an important area of the game (scoring), his lack of elite play in most other areas of the game is enough to limit his all-time rankings IMO. Top 10 at his position? Sure. #2? lol

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