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RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

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Post#1 RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:26 pm by Doctor MJ

Okay, this thread is intended to serve as the official project thread of the project. For chronology, the project was championed by ardee in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1171505

We had vote about the precise nature of the project here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1196094

Voting

Each subsequent thread after this will be intended to award the next spot on our Top 50 list for highest peaks in NBA history. Runoffs may be needed, so it's possible we'll deviate from that from time to time.

When you vote, you'll be voting for a specific player's season, and you need to specify both. You may change your vote at any time before the final deadline, however:

1) When you change your vote, you should do so by editing the post you had previously voted on, and I'd prefer you don't remove the original writing of the post, just make clear edit at the top of the post saying you've changed your mind and giving your new vote. I ask this of you because I don't want to risk errors. Doing it this way will prevent double counts and keep me from going crazy if someone changes something at the last minute ("Wait I could've sworn... :o ).

2) Running this project complete with regular tallying is a pain. If you want to make sure your vote is counted, don't wait until the last minute. I don't have time to do re-counts simply because someone was fashionably late.

Peaks, not Seasons

We've decided to make this a project about the highest player peaks in history, not the best seasons in history. We're still judging player-seasons, but once a player gets in with his best season, he's out of the conversation for subsequent spots.

Note that with this player-season peak format, a player's seasons will compete against each other and it's possible for a player to get the plurality of votes and still lose. It is considered acceptable to change your vote to help the right player-season win, especially if that means shifting between seasons of the same player.

Keep in mind though generally, that overuse of switching your vote to choose to keep a player-season you're not as impressed with from winning distorts the results and can actually make them look less like your personal rankings than if you'd just stuck with your guns.

Regarding the definition of Peak

With the focus on specific seasons, we're defining peak based on a player's best season. This doesn't mean you can't bring up stuff from the rest of his career that informs understanding of his peak, but this is NOT meant to be a shorter version of the Top 100 project. A player's longevity should not be factoring into your thinking.

By focusing on the season though hopefully it should be clear that you need to tie your arguments to specific impact a player had.

No Nominations

The Top 100 projects always had a Nomination threads. We do not plan to do this here. Just going to jump straight in.

Voting Format

On it's own line, say something like:

Vote: '13 Adam Morrison (assumed to be '12-13)

or

Vote: '12-13 Adam Morrison

Make it easy for me. Also, if you aren't on the Panel, then don't include one of these lines.

Voting Panel

I'll put together the panel in the next few days. Below are people who I already see as on the panel, if you're name isn't on the list and you want it to be, post or PM me. I'll warn you right now that my philosophy is that if I don't know you, then I want to see you show your stuff a bit before I let you in. So, if I say "not yet", show me I'm wrong by participating in the discussion intelligently.

1. ardee
2. Doctor MJ
3. C-izeMe
4. colts18
5. DavidStern
6. DrMufasa
7. drza
8. ElGee
9. JordansBulls
10. Vinsanity420
11. therealbig3
12. Josephpaul
13. ThaRegul8r
14. PTB Fan
15. bastillon
16. SDChargers#1
17. LikeABosh
18. Lightning25
19. fatal9

The List of 50 Highest Peaks in History:

1. Michael Jordan '91, age 27
2. Shaquille O'Neal '00, age 27
3. Bill Russell '65, age 30
4. Wilt Chamberlain '67, age 30
5. Hakeem Olajuwon '94, age 31
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar '77, age 29
7. Larry Bird '86, age 29
8. Magic Johnson '87, age 27
9. Tim Duncan '03, age 26
10. LeBron James '09, age 24
11. Kevin Garnett '04, age 27
12. Bill Walton '77, age 24
13. Julius Erving '76, age 25
14. Oscar Robertson '63, age 24
15. Kobe Bryant '08, age 29
16. David Robinson '95, age 29
17. Dwyane Wade '09, age 27
18. Dirk Nowitzki '11, age 32
19. Patrick Ewing '90, age 27
20. Steve Nash '05, age 30
21. Jerry West '66, age 27
22. Chris Paul '08, age 22
23. Charles Barkley '93, age 29
24. Moses Malone '83, age 27
25. Tracy McGrady '03, age 23
26. Karl Malone '98, age 34
27. Scottie Pippen '95, age 29
28. Penny Hardaway '96, age 24
29. Elgin Baylor '61, age 26
30. Dwight Howard '11, age 25
31. Rick Barry '75, age 30
32. Kevin Durant '12, age 23
33. Kevin McHale '87, age 29
Doctor MJ



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Post#2 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:52 pm by Josephpaul

Me 2!?
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Post#3 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:47 am by TeeheeDumDum

While I'm not knowledgeable in basketball nor do I intend on contributing on the actual project, let me ask about a certain scenario.


Let's say there are 4 people voted on for a certain position. 20 votes total.
A gets 8
B gets 7
C gets 3
D gets 2.
A obviously won, but...
Let's say people who voted for C/D didn't agree that A was better than B. In fact, if there was a revote with only A and B the results would be
A gets 9
B gets 11.

So I suppose the overall scenario is, if more people think one peak is better than the rest, but on a whole more people believe one peak is better than the other, how do you judge that?
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Post#4 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:53 am by therealbig3

^People have the chance to change their votes, so in your scenario, if people who believe B>A see that A is going to win, they can change their votes to B if they voted for C or D or something.
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Post#5 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:09 am by ardee

Can't believe this is actually in motion now :D

Yeah, I suppose that's how we'll go about it ^^. Let everyone vote for whichever season they want, and if there's no clear majority, then pick the ones with the two most votes and let those be discussed and then voted upon.

Does anyone have a preliminary list yet? Here's a top 10 I think I'm pretty set on.... After that it's quite a cluster****, we'll definitely need a lot of discussion.

1. 1967 Chamberlain
2. 1991 Jordan
3. 2000 Shaq
4. 1987 Magic
5. 1986 Bird
6. 1994 Olajuwon
7. 1965 Russell
8. 1977 Kareem
9. 2009 James
10. 2003 Duncan/1976 Doc (it's hard for me to decide right now)
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Post#6 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:19 am by therealbig3

For me it would be something like:

1. 91 Jordan
2. 10 LeBron
3. 00 Shaq
4. 67 Wilt
5. 64 Russell
6. 93 Hakeem
7. 87 Magic
8. 86 Bird
9. 77 Kareem
10. 03 Duncan

04 KG and 76 Dr. J would be next.
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Post#7 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:48 am by JordansBulls

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Jordan 91: 31.7, 0.32 -----------32.0, 0.33 (17 playoff game, title)
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Shaq 2000: 30.6, 0.28, --------- 30.5, 0.22 (23 playoff games, title)
Wilt 1967: 26.5, .285------------25.3, 0.25 (15 playoff games, title)

1. 1991 Jordan
2. 1971 Kareem
3. 1994 Olajuwon
4. 2000 Shaq
5. 1967 Wilt
6. 1965 Russell
7. 1987 Magic
8. 1986 Bird
9. 2003 Duncan
10. 1983 Moses/2012 Lebron
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Post#8 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:28 am by C-izMe

1. 00 Shaq
2. 67 Wilt
3. 91 MJ
4. 94 Hakeem
5. 87 Magic
6. 77 Kareem (or 76 I'm split)
7. 86 Bird
8. 03 Duncan
9. 09 Lebron
10. 64 Russell
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Post#9 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:13 am by ardee

therealbig3 wrote:For me it would be something like:

1. 91 Jordan
2. 10 LeBron
3. 00 Shaq
4. 67 Wilt
5. 64 Russell
6. 93 Hakeem
7. 87 Magic
8. 86 Bird
9. 77 Kareem
10. 03 Duncan

04 KG and 76 Dr. J would be next.


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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#10 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:37 am by lorak

Ok guys, tell me why Hakeem 1994 shouldn't be no 1? (And I hope answer would be different than PER or WS...)
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

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Post#11 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:45 am by C-izMe

DavidStern wrote:Ok guys, tell me why Hakeem 1994 shouldn't be no 1? (And I hope answer would be different than PER or WS...)

He has a legit argument. I'm still not completely sold on him under Jordan and Wilt. A good argument could swing me either way.
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Post#12 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:49 am by ardee

DavidStern wrote:Ok guys, tell me why Hakeem 1994 shouldn't be no 1? (And I hope answer would be different than PER or WS...)


Probably because some people (including me) are confused as to whether 1994 or 1995 was his peak year impact-wise.
SSOL

G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#13 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:13 am by lorak

ardee wrote:
DavidStern wrote:Ok guys, tell me why Hakeem 1994 shouldn't be no 1? (And I hope answer would be different than PER or WS...)


Probably because some people (including me) are confused as to whether 1994 or 1995 was his peak year impact-wise.


The same applies to MJ, so...?

BTW, I think it's 1994 because he had more help (in playoffs) in 1995. In 1994 it was Hakeem with bunch of role players. He dominated from the regular season (DPOY, MVP), to the finals, when entire great Knicks defense was focused on him and he still dominated (on both ends of the floor as he shut down Ewing) and won MVP. BTW, how many players won DPOTY, MVP and finals MVP?
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Post#14 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:30 am by JordansBulls

DavidStern wrote:Ok guys, tell me why Hakeem 1994 shouldn't be no 1? (And I hope answer would be different than PER or WS...)

He didn't beat the team that beat him the year before and avoided two of the best teams (Seattle) and Chicago (no MJ)
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Post#15 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:39 am by lorak

JordansBulls wrote:
DavidStern wrote:Ok guys, tell me why Hakeem 1994 shouldn't be no 1? (And I hope answer would be different than PER or WS...)

He didn't beat the team that beat him the year before and avoided two of the best teams (Seattle) and Chicago (no MJ)


Jordan also didn't beat the team that beat him the year before (in 1991 Isiah was injured for example), Showtime wasn't Showtime anymore and Knicks weren't as strong as in 1994. Overall Bulls in 1991 beat only one team which won more than 50 games during regular season.... In 1994 Rockets beat 3 such teams and in 1995 they won all 4 series without home court advantage (as we all know that is VERY important to you ;D).

Also, remember MJ didn't won MVP, DPOTY and Finals MVP during one year.
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Post#16 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:48 am by therealbig3

DavidStern wrote:Ok guys, tell me why Hakeem 1994 shouldn't be no 1? (And I hope answer would be different than PER or WS...)


Was 94 Hakeem even better than 03 Duncan, at least in the playoffs?

mysticbb wrote:Well, my SPM (state of the art boxscore metric based on impact analysis of the respective boxscore entries combined with the regression analysis of the overall boxscore stats on the team average scoring margin, while adjusting for the strength of the opponents) has Duncan during the 2003 playoffs with +8.05, Olajuwon in 1994 with +6.61 and in 1995 with +6.01. Duncan in 1999 +6.16, in 2005 +6.25, in 2007 +6.18. Basically Duncan done what Olajuwon done in 1994 and 1995 in all of his championship years, while exceeding it in 2003. In 2002 Duncan posted a +9.11 rating. When Duncan was on the court during the 2002 playoffs, the Spurs had +8.3 per 100 possessions (oer 675 possessions), with him off the court they had -14.3 per 100 possessions (in 183 possessions). Duncan had an amazing run from 1999 to 2007, with the exception of 2000, when he missed the playoffs due to an injury. Olajuwon was not on that level, not in 1994 and not in 1995.
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Post#17 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:48 am by JordansBulls

Pistons were the 2x defending champions and Isiah played the entire series. He also beat the guy who finished 2nd in MVP voting. Hakeem 1995 didn't lead his team in Win shares in 1995 and in 1994 he didn't have the best numbers in the league as Robinson did.
Remember we are comparing across the board and guys who won league MVP and had the best numbers in the league that year and won the title is what matters.
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Post#18 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:08 pm by lorak

Isiah was injured. Lakers also have injured players. 1991 Bulls didn't beat even one strong team. And of course 1994 Hakeem on individual level dominated more than 1991 MJ, because he also was DPOTY.
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Post#19 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:30 pm by JordansBulls

DavidStern wrote:Isiah was injured. Lakers also have injured players. 1991 Bulls didn't beat even one strong team. And of course 1994 Hakeem on individual level dominated more than 1991 MJ, because he also was DPOTY.

Isiah played all 4 games. And his numbers in that series was no different fro
Previous years vs the Bulls. And Hakeem in 1994 didn't dominate more than MJ in 1991. Hakeem didn't even have the best stats in 1994.
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Post#20 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:50 pm by lorak

Wade also played in 4 games in 2007 but that doesn't mean he was healthy. And 1991 Pistons were almost as much "defending champions" as 2007 Heat.

Anyway, the points are:
- 1994 Hakeem dominated on BOTH ends of the floor they way Jordan 1991 didn't. And MVP+DPOTY+FINALS MVP is one of the evidence
- 1994 Rockets faced tougher competition in the playoffs than 1991 Bulls
- 1994 Hakeem had less support than 1991 MJ
- 1994 Hakeem dominated one of the best centers of all time in H2H matchup; 1991 MJ didn't do so to someone similar at his position.
- overall competition in the paint was tougher then than on the perimeter, so Hakeem's productions is more impressive
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