RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
- ronnymac2
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
I'm not going to be participating in this project, but I'll try to follow it. I've always loved peaks. Aside from team matchup analysis, peak play is my favorite aspect of basketball comparisons.
I have a few suggestions to the participants.
1. Use the RPOY threads to inform yourself about how certain players played during their peak seasons.
2. Pay attention to Bob McAdoo and George Gervin. Their peaks are ridiculously good. Especially McAdoo in 1975.
3. Don't sleep on players like Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing, who are both known more for solid longevity. Their peak seasons are ridiculous. Don't automatically assume Malone's is '97 or '98. IIRC, 1994-1996 came out to be peak years in my book for Malone.
4. Consider 2001 Shaq. In the '01 playoffs, he played better than ever. A little smarter than in 2001. He had more patience. He also put up similar numbers against superior competition. Portland's huge defense and Sac's inverted offense led by Webber and Divac remained, but this year, he had to also go through Duncan/Robinson (GOAT defensive frontcourt duo) and DPOY Dikembe Mutombo flanked by a strong team defense. There were games where Shaq outdid Duncan/Robinson by himself. Amazing.
5. Give the proper respect to Rick Barry and Isiah Thomas. They're both douchebags, but they were both amazing at their respective peaks.
Looking forward to reading the threads. Enjoy it guys.
I have a few suggestions to the participants.
1. Use the RPOY threads to inform yourself about how certain players played during their peak seasons.
2. Pay attention to Bob McAdoo and George Gervin. Their peaks are ridiculously good. Especially McAdoo in 1975.
3. Don't sleep on players like Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing, who are both known more for solid longevity. Their peak seasons are ridiculous. Don't automatically assume Malone's is '97 or '98. IIRC, 1994-1996 came out to be peak years in my book for Malone.
4. Consider 2001 Shaq. In the '01 playoffs, he played better than ever. A little smarter than in 2001. He had more patience. He also put up similar numbers against superior competition. Portland's huge defense and Sac's inverted offense led by Webber and Divac remained, but this year, he had to also go through Duncan/Robinson (GOAT defensive frontcourt duo) and DPOY Dikembe Mutombo flanked by a strong team defense. There were games where Shaq outdid Duncan/Robinson by himself. Amazing.
5. Give the proper respect to Rick Barry and Isiah Thomas. They're both douchebags, but they were both amazing at their respective peaks.
Looking forward to reading the threads. Enjoy it guys.
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It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
I have my doubts for few players: Russell, whether his '63 or '65 campaign was better overall and Kareem, 76 vs 80. I'll have to think it through.
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
When are we getting started. I'm ready whenever.
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
- An Unbiased Fan
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Doctor MJ wrote:An Unbiased Fan wrote:I won't have time to do this project, but it does look promising. My only question is why not choose a 3 year "Peak" as opposed to 1 year. For Hakeem that would be 93-95', MJ would be 91-93, Bird would be 84-86, Kobe would be 06-08', Shaq would be 00-02', and so on...
The few times peaks have been ranked on the PC board, this is typically the method used. It gives a bigger sample size, and is a bit more reflective of a player.
For example, in the NFL, Jamal Lewis rushed for 2066 yds, at 129.1 yds per game, 5.3 per carry in 03'. That's #2 all-time, and if we went by peak year, then many could make a case that he had the 2nd greatest "peak" behind Dickerson. However, if we look at his 3 year peak, we would see that 2003 was an outlying season, and that he was never consistently at that level.
If this project is ranking the highest "peaks", as opposed to the best individual seasons, then perhaps a 3-year sample would work better.
Well, I think it's pretty telling that the example you're thinking of is from another sport. I don't think a 1 year peak is the best way to judge every athlete. However I think basketball is a consistent enough sport that it works.
I also think that in the cases where there would be a significant difference between a 1 year period and a 3 year period, I don't see the advantage of ignoring the 1 year peak. Doing so would exclude a guy like Walton obviously, and what would be the point in that? Moreover, doing so would seriously diminish Wilt's candidacy at least in my eyes, leading to the same battles we've had so many times before.
Also in principle, I always like to minimize the arbitrariness of any criteria I use. 1 season is the smallest complete unit of basketball. It's a logical place to evaluate. If we use a 3 season standard, why not 2? and why not 4? or 5?
With all this said, getting back to what you say about Lewis, I'd think the main reason it would be unsatisfactory in someone's eyes to use a 1-year peak judgement on him would be that you thought that there was some form of luck involved in that year that makes him look better than he is. In football, where a player is dependent on so many other players, this is a very reasonable thing to argue, and it's not necessarily irrelevant in basketball either...
However, we're certainly not asking you to ignore luck here. If a voter thinks that a player's true abilities got overrated based on some outside factor in his big season, they should proclaim so loudly and vote their conscience.
All good points. I'm thinking the choosing of peak years will have tons of debate, much like the nominations did in the Top 100 project. Should be interesting.
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
C-izMe wrote:When are we getting started. I'm ready whenever.
We're on like Super Bon Bon brother.
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
btw, I added a few more names to the list. Check the first post.
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
- rrravenred
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
OK, I'll jump into this (if that's OK with you)... I'll try to add as much as I can as often as I can. More fun than the endless Lebron comparison threads, at present.
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
So what voting system are we following, finally?
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
We need more voters.
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Doctor MJ wrote:btw, I added a few more names to the list. Check the first post.
After this project, we should run a best Defensive GOAT project. Maybe limit it to top 25-30 so it won't get boring. I think that could be interesting.
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
I'll be a voter and contribute where I can. May or not be sporadic though!
Doctor MJ wrote:I don't understand why people jump in a thread and say basically, "This thing you're all talking about. I'm too ignorant to know anything about it. Lollerskates!"
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
colts18 wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:btw, I added a few more names to the list. Check the first post.
After this project, we should run a best Defensive GOAT project. Maybe limit it to top 25-30 so it won't get boring. I think that could be interesting.
No. I'll have a heart attack when Kobe and Lebron get voted in and MJ is top 5.
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Are you going to add in the links on the 1st post from each of the top peaks so it is easier to track?
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
- Snakebites
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Peanut gallery posting here:
If Shaq really does have the second best season in NBA history, shouldn't he be higher than 7th on the all time list? I never thought of longevity/length of peak as being particularly problematic for them.
If Shaq really does have the second best season in NBA history, shouldn't he be higher than 7th on the all time list? I never thought of longevity/length of peak as being particularly problematic for them.
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Snakebites wrote:Peanut gallery posting here:
If Shaq really does have the second best season in NBA history, shouldn't he be higher than 7th on the all time list? I never thought of longevity/length of peak as being particularly problematic for them.
He never played defense like he did in 2000 any other year. His one year peak is up there because of that.
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
- Dr Positivity
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
C-izMe wrote:Snakebites wrote:Peanut gallery posting here:
If Shaq really does have the second best season in NBA history, shouldn't he be higher than 7th on the all time list? I never thought of longevity/length of peak as being particularly problematic for them.
He never played defense like he did in 2000 any other year. His one year peak is up there because of that.
Furthermore I think everyone can agree that the gap between all the players on the top 10 list right now, are VERY VERY small, like meaningless feather in the cap small. Limiting it to everyone's very best season makes the gaps smaller because every season voted in so far is flawless, while over a larger career warts have a greater chance of coming up for these guys
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Okay folks, so some people are pretty dissatisfied with how the voting is going, and I think it would be good to take a brief period in the main thread here, to get cards out on the table. I'll say up front, that I'm not expecting to make any major changes to the project, but we'll see how people are feeling.
Issues that I see, or I think I might be seeing:
-People not having time to really get into serious debate period.
-People not really taking the distinction between seasons seriously, or not understanding what that means.
-People going overboard with strategic voting, to try to keep the most-wrong guy from getting in.
Let me know your thoughts on this, and if you have proposals for changes, let me know. I'll say that I've already received a suggestion to re-start the whole project with nominations (like in the Top 100 projects).
Personally, I don't think any perfect solution is out there. I think the reality is simply that this project is proving harder for people to come to consensus on than the career-based project, and I don't think anything can really solve that. In the end, all we can do is the best we can and remember that not only is the discussion supposed to be more important than the voting, but that the arguments people make in these projects keep having an effect after the votes take place.
And in case there is any doubt: We're going to continue with the voting as is until such time as we officially decide to change things - which might be never.
Cheers,
Doc
Issues that I see, or I think I might be seeing:
-People not having time to really get into serious debate period.
-People not really taking the distinction between seasons seriously, or not understanding what that means.
-People going overboard with strategic voting, to try to keep the most-wrong guy from getting in.
Let me know your thoughts on this, and if you have proposals for changes, let me know. I'll say that I've already received a suggestion to re-start the whole project with nominations (like in the Top 100 projects).
Personally, I don't think any perfect solution is out there. I think the reality is simply that this project is proving harder for people to come to consensus on than the career-based project, and I don't think anything can really solve that. In the end, all we can do is the best we can and remember that not only is the discussion supposed to be more important than the voting, but that the arguments people make in these projects keep having an effect after the votes take place.
And in case there is any doubt: We're going to continue with the voting as is until such time as we officially decide to change things - which might be never.
Cheers,
Doc
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
C-izMe wrote:Snakebites wrote:Peanut gallery posting here:
If Shaq really does have the second best season in NBA history, shouldn't he be higher than 7th on the all time list? I never thought of longevity/length of peak as being particularly problematic for them.
He never played defense like he did in 2000 any other year. His one year peak is up there because of that.
he was actually playing better on both ends in 01.
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
well, it seems like there's been some major clashing with Lebron's peak and he is the only current player on this list. I was curious to see where he'd finish since both sides have presented strong arguments on him.
It seemed like he could have finished as high as third, but he's dropping down the ranks and this may be because his career has not finished yet. We don't have the full picture logic (on James) that I've seen posters use for other players in the project.
So, because of the small voting panel and the currency of James' career, I'm not sure that an accurate placement can be made. We'll just have to wait a few years i guess?
It seemed like he could have finished as high as third, but he's dropping down the ranks and this may be because his career has not finished yet. We don't have the full picture logic (on James) that I've seen posters use for other players in the project.
So, because of the small voting panel and the currency of James' career, I'm not sure that an accurate placement can be made. We'll just have to wait a few years i guess?
Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
- Dr Positivity
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Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
I don't have a problem with the rankings so far just because it's perfect season vs perfect season so far, there isn't really a right or wrong answer at this point. In a way I think removing the individual seasons caveat and just going for "PEAK, however you define it" may have led to the more meaningful votes among the top guys. Later on in the project there'll be more meaningful selections though, I think
As for the discussion, tbh I don't like it at all because I'm literally 100% out on the In/Out injury +/- (I made a long post saying why here viewtopic.php?f=344&t=1165142&start=30), I honestly think it means less than JordansBulls' HCA theory, that's how little I trust the numbers. But everyone else in the project is down with trying to use that method to evaluating players that's OK I guess?
As for the discussion, tbh I don't like it at all because I'm literally 100% out on the In/Out injury +/- (I made a long post saying why here viewtopic.php?f=344&t=1165142&start=30), I honestly think it means less than JordansBulls' HCA theory, that's how little I trust the numbers. But everyone else in the project is down with trying to use that method to evaluating players that's OK I guess?