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RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

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Post#241 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:40 pm by therealbig3

BTW, Kidd is extremely underrated. Looking through his RAPM data from 02-08, and he is not this offensive liability that people think. And the whole "PGs don't affect defenses that much" doesn't apply to him.

His RAPM from 02-08 (I'm guessing there's rounding error, because the offense+defense doesn't exactly add up to the overall in some cases):

02: +2.5 (+1.6 offense, +0.9 defense) - 4th overall
03: +3.8 (+2.3 offense, +1.6 defense) - 7th overall
04: +4.2 (+2.0 offense, +2.2 defense) - 7th overall
05: +4.8 (+3.0 offense, +1.8 defense) - 6th overall
06: +3.6 (+3.3 offense, +0.3 defense) - 17th overall
07: +3.8 (+4.1 offense, -0.2 defense) - 17th overall
08: +3.0 (+1.7 offense, +1.3 defense) - 25th overall

You can see that he was easily top 10 and usually around top 5 from 02-05, and when he fell off in 06 and 07, it was mainly because his defense suffered (his offense was arguably better, because of his improving outside shot)...his defense shot up again in 08 (averaged over 8 rpg with the Nets that year), and his offense suffered (reduced role in Dallas, and he shot like crap with the Nets).

And 04-08 was post-microfracture surgery Kidd, who suffered a decline in his explosion and his quickness. Still an elite player, and I still consider 04-07 to be a part of his prime, but he may have been even better earlier in his career.

Anyway, I think he's being seriously overlooked. I'm not sure I'd take Pierce over him anymore, from a peak or career perspective. Kidd was always considered the better player, which is supported by RAPM from 02-06, and by box score comparisons.
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Post#242 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:26 pm by Doctor MJ

therealbig3 wrote:BTW, Kidd is extremely underrated. Looking through his RAPM data from 02-08, and he is not this offensive liability that people think. And the whole "PGs don't affect defenses that much" doesn't apply to him.

His RAPM from 02-08 (I'm guessing there's rounding error, because the offense+defense doesn't exactly add up to the overall in some cases):

02: +2.5 (+1.6 offense, +0.9 defense) - 4th overall
03: +3.8 (+2.3 offense, +1.6 defense) - 7th overall
04: +4.2 (+2.0 offense, +2.2 defense) - 7th overall
05: +4.8 (+3.0 offense, +1.8 defense) - 6th overall
06: +3.6 (+3.3 offense, +0.3 defense) - 17th overall
07: +3.8 (+4.1 offense, -0.2 defense) - 17th overall
08: +3.0 (+1.7 offense, +1.3 defense) - 25th overall

You can see that he was easily top 10 and usually around top 5 from 02-05, and when he fell off in 06 and 07, it was mainly because his defense suffered (his offense was arguably better, because of his improving outside shot)...his defense shot up again in 08 (averaged over 8 rpg with the Nets that year), and his offense suffered (reduced role in Dallas, and he shot like crap with the Nets).

And 04-08 was post-microfracture surgery Kidd, who suffered a decline in his explosion and his quickness. Still an elite player, and I still consider 04-07 to be a part of his prime, but he may have been even better earlier in his career.

Anyway, I think he's being seriously overlooked. I'm not sure I'd take Pierce over him anymore, from a peak or career perspective. Kidd was always considered the better player, which is supported by RAPM from 02-06, and by box score comparisons.


So since you bring it up, here's a list of the players who haven't been voted in yet and who leave a mark by RAPM.

As I've been doing lately, I'm using Engelmann's prior-informed yearly numbers normalized for variance. The column header represent the number of standard deviations beyond the norm the player achieved, and the number below them is the number of times that player achieved this. Players are racked in rough order of impressiveness:

Code: Select all
Player      3  2.5  2  1.5  1
Ginobili    2   6   6   7   9
Kidd        0   0   4   7   8
Artest      0   0   1   6   9
B. Miller   0   1   2   5   7
Kirilenko   0   0   2   5   7
Bosh        0   0   2   6   6
R. Wallace  0   0   2   4   7
Pierce      0   0   2   5   5
B. Davis    0   1   2   2   7


Now, most of these player I don't expect to get any play here, but I'm including them so that people see what the stat actually says, for good or for ill.

To my mind, career-wise, you've got Ginobili, Kidd, and Pierce, and then there's everyone else for one reason or another.

Ginobili has the +/- edge over everyone else here by a massive, massive margin and I think it's a big enough deal that people at least need to consider and place Ginobili in their rankings (where they place him I expect will vary greatly).

Of the "play minutes like an all-star, keep being awesome" crowd, I think Kidd is the obvious choice, presuming people rank his peak highly enough.

I don't take single year ratings that seriously - which does make for a bit of a problem in using this stat for this project - so seeing Miller up there doesn't make me seriously consider him as a candidate.

However, I think that if we're considering Kidd, we need to seriously look at Baron Davis '07 as well.
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Post#243 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:32 pm by Doctor MJ

therealbig3 wrote:BTW, Kidd is extremely underrated. Looking through his RAPM data from 02-08, and he is not this offensive liability that people think. And the whole "PGs don't affect defenses that much" doesn't apply to him.


I did want to address this specifically, and yeah, I think you've got a good point.

When people such as myself use as a short hand "defense doesn't really matter for point guards", of course this isn't strictly true. It's just that we see over and over again that their primary effect is on offense.

Is Kidd contradicting this here? No. His offense is still better than his defense at peak, despite the fact he's really not a good scoring threat, and his defense is awesome by point guard standards. Additionally, there's the matter that the Kidd vs Nash debate has been a huge one for the past 8 years, and the traditional pro-Kidd argument is that their offense is close and Kidd's defense is much better. And yet, Nash clearly rates higher by RAPM at peak by a good margin by any possible interpretation. One more reason why it's so important to realize that offense is so much more important than defense for a point guard.

But of course, this doesn't mean we can actually ignore defense, and in an extreme case like Kidd's, it's possible for a point guard to be quite good on offense and almost as good on defense, and that this combination is one made him be a clear Top 10 player (though he was never truly an MVP candidate level player).
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Post#244 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:41 am by lukekarts

I didn't have time to enter the voting but I've managed to keep track of the overall list, and there are a few things I'm curious about.

1. KG over Walton. Not to detract from the form of Garnett in 04, but what was the justification for him being better than Walton, given the fact Walton's peak was title winning form?

2. Karl Malone @ 26. I struggle to relate this to the top 100 list (#12). Having read the voting for TMac at 25, a lot of the comments are fairly supportive of my opinion that Malone was not that good - particularly as a playoff performer. For his Top 100 rank to be elevated so high just because he was a good player for a long time (despite still not winning championships) makes me further doubt the validity of his ranking.

3. Penny still gets too much love here. I was a big fan but was his peak really better than other guards such Clyde Drexler or Steve Nash, or Gary Payton? Or even great complimentary pieces like Kevin McHale, Paul Pierce, Dave Cowens? Or leading scorers like Kevin Durant? Sometimes I get the impression guys like Penny are remembered too fondly.
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Post#245 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:03 am by C-izMe

So KG should be under Walton because he didn't win a ring? Really? You've been here long enough to realize that argument is crap.

Also Nash is over Penny.

And Penny was a 3rd place MVP finish as a second option in 96. He averaged 25/5/6.5 in 28 games without Shaq while leading Orlando to a 20-8 record. He's better than Payton's ever been by a large margin, better than Clyde because of how great he was offensively, and when it comes to complimentary pieces it looks the same as with KG - that you value rings and not play. If Penny won with Shaq in 95 would you be saying the same thing (even if it didn't effect his play in 96 at all? With KD I'll just ask how many ways does Penny impact the game strongly (2, passing and scoring). How many ways does KD (1, scoring).

Also I feel Pierce is overrated by winning a ring (in a non prime year). He was never seen as better than TMac, Kidd, etc. until he won the ring.
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Post#246 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:39 am by ardee

lukekarts wrote:I didn't have time to enter the voting but I've managed to keep track of the overall list, and there are a few things I'm curious about.

1. KG over Walton. Not to detract from the form of Garnett in 04, but what was the justification for him being better than Walton, given the fact Walton's peak was title winning form?

2. Karl Malone @ 26. I struggle to relate this to the top 100 list (#12). Having read the voting for TMac at 25, a lot of the comments are fairly supportive of my opinion that Malone was not that good - particularly as a playoff performer. For his Top 100 rank to be elevated so high just because he was a good player for a long time (despite still not winning championships) makes me further doubt the validity of his ranking.

3. Penny still gets too much love here. I was a big fan but was his peak really better than other guards such Clyde Drexler or Steve Nash, or Gary Payton? Or even great complimentary pieces like Kevin McHale, Paul Pierce, Dave Cowens? Or leading scorers like Kevin Durant? Sometimes I get the impression guys like Penny are remembered too fondly.


1. Garnett was a better scorer. He was capable of taking over a game and giving you 30-35 if need be. Granted he couldn't do it as often as Shaq or even Duncan, but Walton's impact on the game was strictly a rebounding/defense/passing standpoint, even his best game of the season (ungodly 20/23/8/7) was not as good. Obviously the rebounding/defense/passing thing worked pretty darn well for Walton, but KG did all that plus scoring. Walton didn't really have to score all that much, the team was constructed around him in such a way that most of the points were scored by role players off fast-breaks or screens or other fluid offensive sets. But that doesn't mean he could, and KG could during those '03 and '04 seasons.

2. The Top 100 list was a year ago. Times change and opinions change since then. And Malone wasn't just 'a good player for a long time', he was a top 5 player in the league for over a decade. Arguably from '90 to '00 and probably more years on either side. Not just ordinary longevity. Only Kareem can top that (best player period for a decade or more).

3. That I agree with. I don't understand how Penny made it that high. I just don't.
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Post#247 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:03 am by MacGill

ardee wrote:
lukekarts wrote:I didn't have time to enter the voting but I've managed to keep track of the overall list, and there are a few things I'm curious about.

1. KG over Walton. Not to detract from the form of Garnett in 04, but what was the justification for him being better than Walton, given the fact Walton's peak was title winning form?

2. Karl Malone @ 26. I struggle to relate this to the top 100 list (#12). Having read the voting for TMac at 25, a lot of the comments are fairly supportive of my opinion that Malone was not that good - particularly as a playoff performer. For his Top 100 rank to be elevated so high just because he was a good player for a long time (despite still not winning championships) makes me further doubt the validity of his ranking.

3. Penny still gets too much love here. I was a big fan but was his peak really better than other guards such Clyde Drexler or Steve Nash, or Gary Payton? Or even great complimentary pieces like Kevin McHale, Paul Pierce, Dave Cowens? Or leading scorers like Kevin Durant? Sometimes I get the impression guys like Penny are remembered too fondly.


1. Garnett was a better scorer. He was capable of taking over a game and giving you 30-35 if need be. Granted he couldn't do it as often as Shaq or even Duncan, but Walton's impact on the game was strictly a rebounding/defense/passing standpoint, even his best game of the season (ungodly 20/23/8/7) was not as good. Obviously the rebounding/defense/passing thing worked pretty darn well for Walton, but KG did all that plus scoring. Walton didn't really have to score all that much, the team was constructed around him in such a way that most of the points were scored by role players off fast-breaks or screens or other fluid offensive sets. But that doesn't mean he could, and KG could during those '03 and '04 seasons.

2. The Top 100 list was a year ago. Times change and opinions change since then. And Malone wasn't just 'a good player for a long time', he was a top 5 player in the league for over a decade. Arguably from '90 to '00 and probably more years on either side. Not just ordinary longevity. Only Kareem can top that (best player period for a decade or more).
3. That I agree with. I don't understand how Penny made it that high. I just don't.


You can't take that away from him but way too much credit given here in my opinion. You could argue that during the timespan you speak of, interchange KAJ with many of the top 15 and you'd could replicate the same result. There just didn't seem to be many players as stars during his prime/peak and Malone's era was pretty loaded per position. I am much more impressed with Malone's overall consistency/longevity versus KAJ's which excludes accolades of course.
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Post#248 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:13 am by ardee

MacGill wrote:
You can't take that away from him but way too much credit given here in my opinion. You could argue that during the timespan you speak of, interchange KAJ with many of the top 15 and you'd could replicate the same result. There just didn't seem to be many players as stars during his prime/peak and Malone's era was pretty loaded per position. I am much more impressed with Malone's overall consistency/longevity versus KAJ's which excludes accolades of course.


From '70-'80, top centers playing against Kareem: Wilt, Cowens, Unseld, Walton, Moses, Gilmore.

From '90-'00, top power forwards playing against Karl: Charles, Rodman, early Duncan, Kemp for 3-4 years and...?

Over the span of their primes I would say Kareem easily had better competition. The 70s were a hell of a competitive time for the league, and Kareem was consistently it's best player year in and year out. From '71 to '80, Kareem was RPOY from '71-'74 and then '77-'80. Thought that said it all.
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Post#249 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:42 pm by ElGee

ardee wrote:
MacGill wrote:
You can't take that away from him but way too much credit given here in my opinion. You could argue that during the timespan you speak of, interchange KAJ with many of the top 15 and you'd could replicate the same result. There just didn't seem to be many players as stars during his prime/peak and Malone's era was pretty loaded per position. I am much more impressed with Malone's overall consistency/longevity versus KAJ's which excludes accolades of course.


From '70-'80, top centers playing against Kareem: Wilt, Cowens, Unseld, Walton, Moses, Gilmore.

From '90-'00, top power forwards playing against Karl: Charles, Rodman, early Duncan, Kemp for 3-4 years and...?

Over the span of their primes I would say Kareem easily had better competition. The 70s were a hell of a competitive time for the league, and Kareem was consistently it's best player year in and year out. From '71 to '80, Kareem was RPOY from '71-'74 and then '77-'80. Thought that said it all.


You've made a bit of a non-sequitor here...Saying someone is a top-x player in a given year without trying to qualify their play (it's an ordinal ranking) is directly related to the depth at the top of the league (not just centers). He's saying it's impressive longevity not merely for the sake of longevity, but because he holds an incredibly high quality of play (given as top-5 player in very strong competition) for like 13 years.

You've not only brought in center/H2H but you've misrepresented it. How many years did Kareem play against Wilt? (4) Pre-injury Unseld (4) Gilmore? (4?) Walton (really 2) Moses (prime started in 78?) Malone's 88-00 run is against the primes of: Jordan (9 years). Hakeem (9), Barkley (7-9), Magic (4), Ewing (7-8), Pippen (8), Robinson (8)...with Bird/McHale on the front-end of the streak and Shaq/Duncan on the back-end.
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Post#250 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:15 pm by MacGill

@Elgee, right on, and exactly where I was going here. You summed up my thoughts perfectly.
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Post#251 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:20 am by ardee

ElGee wrote:
ardee wrote:
MacGill wrote:
You can't take that away from him but way too much credit given here in my opinion. You could argue that during the timespan you speak of, interchange KAJ with many of the top 15 and you'd could replicate the same result. There just didn't seem to be many players as stars during his prime/peak and Malone's era was pretty loaded per position. I am much more impressed with Malone's overall consistency/longevity versus KAJ's which excludes accolades of course.


From '70-'80, top centers playing against Kareem: Wilt, Cowens, Unseld, Walton, Moses, Gilmore.

From '90-'00, top power forwards playing against Karl: Charles, Rodman, early Duncan, Kemp for 3-4 years and...?

Over the span of their primes I would say Kareem easily had better competition. The 70s were a hell of a competitive time for the league, and Kareem was consistently it's best player year in and year out. From '71 to '80, Kareem was RPOY from '71-'74 and then '77-'80. Thought that said it all.


You've made a bit of a non-sequitor here...Saying someone is a top-x player in a given year without trying to qualify their play (it's an ordinal ranking) is directly related to the depth at the top of the league (not just centers). He's saying it's impressive longevity not merely for the sake of longevity, but because he holds an incredibly high quality of play (given as top-5 player in very strong competition) for like 13 years.

You've not only brought in center/H2H but you've misrepresented it. How many years did Kareem play against Wilt? (4) Pre-injury Unseld (4) Gilmore? (4?) Walton (really 2) Moses (prime started in 78?) Malone's 88-00 run is against the primes of: Jordan (9 years). Hakeem (9), Barkley (7-9), Magic (4), Ewing (7-8), Pippen (8), Robinson (8)...with Bird/McHale on the front-end of the streak and Shaq/Duncan on the back-end.


But that's exactly my point for Kareem. You say Malone was a top 5 player for 13 years, one can argue Kareem was THE best player from '70-'80 (maybe except for '75 and '76), and then a top 5-6 player until '85, (heck, he was no. 3 in RPOY voting in '85 at the age of 38).

And if you want to talk about non-center competition as well, then Kareem's is just as good as Malone's if not better (assuming that '86 was the last year Kareem was a top 10 player): Wilt (4 years), Gilmore (4), Unseld (4), Walton (2), Moses (7), Doc (6-7), Bird (7), Magic (7) (assuming that we're talking about his competition in the best player in the league discussion and not on the court), Gervin (5-6), Moncrief (4-5), early Barkley, Hakeem and Jordan, and West (3).
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#252 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:07 am by lukekarts

C-izMe wrote:So KG should be under Walton because he didn't win a ring? Really? You've been here long enough to realize that argument is crap.

Also Nash is over Penny.

And Penny was a 3rd place MVP finish as a second option in 96. He averaged 25/5/6.5 in 28 games without Shaq while leading Orlando to a 20-8 record. He's better than Payton's ever been by a large margin, better than Clyde because of how great he was offensively, and when it comes to complimentary pieces it looks the same as with KG - that you value rings and not play. If Penny won with Shaq in 95 would you be saying the same thing (even if it didn't effect his play in 96 at all? With KD I'll just ask how many ways does Penny impact the game strongly (2, passing and scoring). How many ways does KD (1, scoring).

Also I feel Pierce is overrated by winning a ring (in a non prime year). He was never seen as better than TMac, Kidd, etc. until he won the ring.


1. Re Walton over KG, no it's not because he won a ring - the winning of a ring was a narrative - but it's because his impact at the time was pretty phenomenal, and he proved at the time his ability could stand the test of the NBA Finals. Neither would win a title with their offensive ability, but at the time I think Walton's relative dominance through defence/rebounding/passing was marginally better than Garnett's, and certainly I think more influential. I'm just surprised that KG went first, all things considered.

2. As for Payton, how can you be so dismissive? Payton did as much with Kemp as Penny did with Shaq only a year later. He gave MJ/Pippen as many problems as Penny if not more, because of his excellent defensive impact. Payton also peaked at #3 in MVP voting. I absolutely think he has a case over Penny, though I was using Payton only to compare players at a similar position as I think both would be too high.
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Post#253 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:15 am by ElGee

Ardee wrote:But that's exactly my point for Kareem. You say Malone was a top 5 player for 13 years, one can argue Kareem was THE best player from '70-'80 (maybe except for '75 and '76), and then a top 5-6 player until '85, (heck, he was no. 3 in RPOY voting in '85 at the age of 38).

And if you want to talk about non-center competition as well, then Kareem's is just as good as Malone's if not better (assuming that '86 was the last year Kareem was a top 10 player): Wilt (4 years), Gilmore (4), Unseld (4), Walton (2), Moses (7), Doc (6-7), Bird (7), Magic (7) (assuming that we're talking about his competition in the best player in the league discussion and not on the court), Gervin (5-6), Moncrief (4-5), early Barkley, Hakeem and Jordan, and West (3).


Right...but that's why people have Kareem top-3 and I'm the only guy outside of Utah with Malone top-10. But you're also making MacGill's point: If you look at 88-00 for Malone -- not JUST longevity, but the sustained quality of the longevity -- it's really only matched by Kareem 70-82, with both players having other relevant seasons outside their primes. He said he's "more impressed" by Karl, but I assume that doesn't mean he's ranking him over Cap.

Simply that you have to go through such loopholes to mention post-prime players very much makes his point about competition. The 70's was lighter on elite players compared to the 90's...I'm surprised you disagree with this. As for your statement about post-prime Kareem, I have him 7th in 1984 and 8th in 1985 and think you should consider the context of the people who voted him 3rd in the RPOY project and the emphasis on the FInals series there -- I personally wouldn't take 85 Kareem over any year from 87-01 Malone, save for specific circumstances, which again speaks to Ardee's point.
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Post#254 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:16 am by MisterWestside

ElGee wrote:Right...but that's why people have Kareem top-3 and I'm the only guy outside of Utah with Malone top-10.


No you're not :)
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Post#255 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:19 am by MacGill

You've made a bit of a non-sequitor here...Saying someone is a top-x player in a given year without trying to qualify their play (it's an ordinal ranking) is directly related to the depth at the top of the league (not just centers). He's saying it's impressive longevity not merely for the sake of longevity, but because he holds an incredibly high quality of play (given as top-5 player in very strong competition) for like 13 years.

You've not only brought in center/H2H but you've misrepresented it. How many years did Kareem play against Wilt? (4) Pre-injury Unseld (4) Gilmore? (4?) Walton (really 2) Moses (prime started in 78?) Malone's 88-00 run is against the primes of: Jordan (9 years). Hakeem (9), Barkley (7-9), Magic (4), Ewing (7-8), Pippen (8), Robinson (8)...with Bird/McHale on the front-end of the streak and Shaq/Duncan on the back-end.


But that's exactly my point for Kareem. You say Malone was a top 5 player for 13 years, one can argue Kareem was THE best player from '70-'80 (maybe except for '75 and '76), and then a top 5-6 player until '85, (heck, he was no. 3 in RPOY voting in '85 at the age of 38).

And if you want to talk about non-center competition as well, then Kareem's is just as good as Malone's if not better (assuming that '86 was the last year Kareem was a top 10 player): Wilt (4 years), Gilmore (4), Unseld (4), Walton (2), Moses (7), Doc (6-7), Bird (7), Magic (7) (assuming that we're talking about his competition in the best player in the league discussion and not on the court), Gervin (5-6), Moncrief (4-5), early Barkley, Hakeem and Jordan, and West (3).


Ardee, you are shifting the goal posts a bit here. I am sure if you were going to make the argument for prime/peak KAJ, you are not dipping far into the 80's at all. He just wasn't the same guy at all and the numbers show this regardless of an epic playoff series.

To further elaborate my point, all 6 of KAJ's MVP awards came between 1970-1980 only Cowens, McAdoo, Walton and Moses won in the other years. And Artis & Dr. J were in the ABA over peak times during their respected careers. On top of that, the nba championship was basically won by a different team each year as there was no clear dynasty in place which would have been the Lakers of old.

So again, while I don't take away what he did at the time, as he cannot control the league, it does appear though that from a pure, megastar or whatever name you want to give it, perspective, this was a more thin era in top tier players, not to be confused with still good players but certainly not of the likes of a MJ,Magic,Bird, Shaq,Hakeem,D-Rob,Duncan,Barkley and so on.

I mean do you really want to compare the seperation point of KAJ to Cowens versus Malone to Jordan as an example? Do you believe prime/peak KAJ would win 6 mvps in a league filled with the above? This is why I do feel aspects of him become overrated because he arguably to me produced the least, of the top 10, given the seperation between #1 and #2. And when I look at his mvp's/win shares etc, they don't hold as much value to me because the only time he was part of a dynasty team was when he was past his prime.

So in a sense, I hold KAJ to a higher standard because of this and also rank him lower on my ATL because of this. People like to say, well MJ, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, all played in water down era's as well and I answer that with they all either 3-peated, repeated, won in close off years or were always in the running. Their dominance on the league resulted in exactly why the game is played and they accomplished their mission while also performing incredibly.

We all know teammates are a figure of luck for the most part and as well who is currently playing in the league or to be drafted but given the times during KAJ's peak/prime it really makes me appreciate a guy like Russell even more. So what is done is done, myself, I just don't hold it as high as most people do and I am fine with those who do.
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Post#256 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:24 am by MacGill

ElGee wrote:
Ardee wrote:But that's exactly my point for Kareem. You say Malone was a top 5 player for 13 years, one can argue Kareem was THE best player from '70-'80 (maybe except for '75 and '76), and then a top 5-6 player until '85, (heck, he was no. 3 in RPOY voting in '85 at the age of 38).

And if you want to talk about non-center competition as well, then Kareem's is just as good as Malone's if not better (assuming that '86 was the last year Kareem was a top 10 player): Wilt (4 years), Gilmore (4), Unseld (4), Walton (2), Moses (7), Doc (6-7), Bird (7), Magic (7) (assuming that we're talking about his competition in the best player in the league discussion and not on the court), Gervin (5-6), Moncrief (4-5), early Barkley, Hakeem and Jordan, and West (3).


Right...but that's why people have Kareem top-3 and I'm the only guy outside of Utah with Malone top-10. But you're also making MacGill's point: If you look at 88-00 for Malone -- not JUST longevity, but the sustained quality of the longevity -- it's really only matched by Kareem 70-82, with both players having other relevant seasons outside their primes. He said he's "more impressed" by Karl, but I assume that doesn't mean he's ranking him over Cap.

Simply that you have to go through such loopholes to mention post-prime players very much makes his point about competition. The 70's was lighter on elite players compared to the 90's...I'm surprised you disagree with this. As for your statement about post-prime Kareem, I have him 7th in 1984 and 8th in 1985 and think you should consider the context of the people who voted him 3rd in the RPOY project and the emphasis on the FInals series there -- I personally wouldn't take 85 Kareem over any year from 87-01 Malone, save for specific circumstances, which again speaks to Ardee's point.


Yes, I do not rank Malone over KAJ.
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Post#257 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:05 pm by ardee

ElGee wrote:Right...but that's why people have Kareem top-3 and I'm the only guy outside of Utah with Malone top-10.


You rank Malone in the top 10? Interesting. I'm guessing that means you have him over Garnett unless you're throwing both Kobe as well as Wilt out haha. Haven't seen a list from you since the Top 100 project, what does your top 15-20 look like ElGee?
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#258 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 2:38 am by Doctor MJ

Hey y'all,

People see extremely distracted right now. I'm guessing that the fact that the NBA season has started has something to do with it. Currently planning to continue the project as is, but I'm open to suggestion.

Longer time for threads?

Take a little bit of a break?

Let me know your thoughts.
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Post#259 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 6:45 am by lorak

I see only two solutions:
1. end project and name it "top 35 peaks"
2. every panel member will send to you (or some volunteer) his list of 15 players peaks in order and we will count (15 pts for 1st place, 14 for 2nd and so on). That way we will have at least finished list. Of course no discussion, but honestly, there's not many discussion in recent thread ;/
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Post#260 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 7:42 am by ardee

DavidStern wrote:I see only two solutions:
1. end project and name it "top 35 peaks"
2. every panel member will send to you (or some volunteer) his list of 15 players peaks in order and we will count (15 pts for 1st place, 14 for 2nd and so on). That way we will have at least finished list. Of course no discussion, but honestly, there's not many discussion in recent thread ;/


I would think we could take a break and regroup after a week, but if the project really is going no ware according to everyone, the second option is definitely better.
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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