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RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

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Post#256 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:24 am by MacGill

ElGee wrote:
Ardee wrote:But that's exactly my point for Kareem. You say Malone was a top 5 player for 13 years, one can argue Kareem was THE best player from '70-'80 (maybe except for '75 and '76), and then a top 5-6 player until '85, (heck, he was no. 3 in RPOY voting in '85 at the age of 38).

And if you want to talk about non-center competition as well, then Kareem's is just as good as Malone's if not better (assuming that '86 was the last year Kareem was a top 10 player): Wilt (4 years), Gilmore (4), Unseld (4), Walton (2), Moses (7), Doc (6-7), Bird (7), Magic (7) (assuming that we're talking about his competition in the best player in the league discussion and not on the court), Gervin (5-6), Moncrief (4-5), early Barkley, Hakeem and Jordan, and West (3).


Right...but that's why people have Kareem top-3 and I'm the only guy outside of Utah with Malone top-10. But you're also making MacGill's point: If you look at 88-00 for Malone -- not JUST longevity, but the sustained quality of the longevity -- it's really only matched by Kareem 70-82, with both players having other relevant seasons outside their primes. He said he's "more impressed" by Karl, but I assume that doesn't mean he's ranking him over Cap.

Simply that you have to go through such loopholes to mention post-prime players very much makes his point about competition. The 70's was lighter on elite players compared to the 90's...I'm surprised you disagree with this. As for your statement about post-prime Kareem, I have him 7th in 1984 and 8th in 1985 and think you should consider the context of the people who voted him 3rd in the RPOY project and the emphasis on the FInals series there -- I personally wouldn't take 85 Kareem over any year from 87-01 Malone, save for specific circumstances, which again speaks to Ardee's point.


Yes, I do not rank Malone over KAJ.
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Post#257 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:05 pm by ardee

ElGee wrote:Right...but that's why people have Kareem top-3 and I'm the only guy outside of Utah with Malone top-10.


You rank Malone in the top 10? Interesting. I'm guessing that means you have him over Garnett unless you're throwing both Kobe as well as Wilt out haha. Haven't seen a list from you since the Top 100 project, what does your top 15-20 look like ElGee?
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G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#258 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 2:38 am by Doctor MJ

Hey y'all,

People see extremely distracted right now. I'm guessing that the fact that the NBA season has started has something to do with it. Currently planning to continue the project as is, but I'm open to suggestion.

Longer time for threads?

Take a little bit of a break?

Let me know your thoughts.
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Post#259 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 6:45 am by lorak

I see only two solutions:
1. end project and name it "top 35 peaks"
2. every panel member will send to you (or some volunteer) his list of 15 players peaks in order and we will count (15 pts for 1st place, 14 for 2nd and so on). That way we will have at least finished list. Of course no discussion, but honestly, there's not many discussion in recent thread ;/
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Post#260 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 7:42 am by ardee

DavidStern wrote:I see only two solutions:
1. end project and name it "top 35 peaks"
2. every panel member will send to you (or some volunteer) his list of 15 players peaks in order and we will count (15 pts for 1st place, 14 for 2nd and so on). That way we will have at least finished list. Of course no discussion, but honestly, there's not many discussion in recent thread ;/


I would think we could take a break and regroup after a week, but if the project really is going no ware according to everyone, the second option is definitely better.
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#261 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 10:42 am by penbeast0

Sort of surprised to see Cowens make the top 35; he was like Chauncey Billups in the early 2000s, the team leader and a very good player but it was a huge upset when he outplayed Kareem or even held him to a draw.

I'm not in the project but seriously . . . ahead of Pettit's championship season? A bit surprised. Wouldn't surprise me that contemporary Artis Gilmore ranked ahead of Cowens 73 too, at least his 75 season.
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Post#262 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 11:48 am by colts18

How about ending the project at top 40.

Have a 1 week break with a thread where we discuss upcoming candidates and nominate like 10 or so, then in each thread we choose from those nominations which player we want.
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Post#263 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 12:25 pm by Doctor MJ

penbeast0 wrote:Sort of surprised to see Cowens make the top 35; he was like Chauncey Billups in the early 2000s, the team leader and a very good player but it was a huge upset when he outplayed Kareem or even held him to a draw.

I'm not in the project but seriously . . . ahead of Pettit's championship season? A bit surprised. Wouldn't surprise me that contemporary Artis Gilmore ranked ahead of Cowens 73 too, at least his 75 season.


beast, note my post from last night. We're really struggling to get participation right now. Until that gets better, it goes without saying that the results might not look so great.
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In 2014
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I,for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
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Post#264 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 12:37 pm by Dr Positivity

I vote for ending the project at 35 or 40
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Post#265 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 1:00 pm by Doctor MJ

I'll add one more note:

If we seriously consider ending this early, when I already made it a point up front to chop the project in half compared to what we normally do, what is the problem?
In 2007
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In 2014
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I,for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
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Post#266 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 4:03 pm by penbeast0

Doctor MJ wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Sort of surprised to see Cowens make the top 35; he was like Chauncey Billups in the early 2000s, the team leader and a very good player but it was a huge upset when he outplayed Kareem or even held him to a draw.

I'm not in the project but seriously . . . ahead of Pettit's championship season? A bit surprised. Wouldn't surprise me that contemporary Artis Gilmore ranked ahead of Cowens 73 too, at least his 75 season.


beast, note my post from last night. We're really struggling to get participation right now. Until that gets better, it goes without saying that the results might not look so great.


I saw it, I was trying to generate some of that discussion you were looking for. :wink:
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Post#267 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 4:11 pm by Dr Positivity

Doctor MJ wrote:I'll add one more note:

If we seriously consider ending this early, when I already made it a point up front to chop the project in half compared to what we normally do, what is the problem?


Very small voting pool missing many of the key posters of the best top 100 and RPOY threads
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Post#268 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Sun Nov 4, 2012 4:27 pm by fatal9

For me, it's more of a not enough time to process everyone who should get talked about. My interest is still there for sure. As you get deeper and deeper into these lists, there end up being more and more guys who are on the same level so it becomes harder to separate them. I was pushing back my vote because I was undecided (I'm fine with Cowens getting in btw, I just would have picked a different year) but then forgot about the deadline completely. Maybe move it to 1 week per thread for a bit? It gives time to lay out arguments for everyone (the wings, the centers and the PGs who haven't even really been discussed yet). I'm guessing it can't hurt, especially with NBA season serving as a distraction now.
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Post#269 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Mon Nov 5, 2012 3:34 am by bastillon

yup, not enough time for discussion, top40 finish
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Post#270 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Nov 6, 2012 11:38 am by ardee

Unrelated to the current discussion, question directed to colts18:

How did you calculate standard deviation for MOV in the 11th highest peak thread? You said you were calculating it w.r.t. the mean of the other teams. Does that mean you calculate the average MOV of the other 29 teams, calculate out the variance of team 1's MOV w.r.t. the mean and then find out the standard deviation via square root?
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#271 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Nov 6, 2012 11:59 am by colts18

ardee wrote:Unrelated to the current discussion, question directed to colts18:

How did you calculate standard deviation for MOV in the 11th highest peak thread? You said you were calculating it w.r.t. the mean of the other teams. Does that mean you calculate the average MOV of the other 29 teams, calculate out the variance of team 1's MOV w.r.t. the mean and then find out the standard deviation via square root?

I believe you are referring to the Walton discussion.

I replaced the Blazers MOV with the MOV with Walton in, then I calculated how many SD they were from the league mean MOV (slightly above 0.00). Based on that I got around a 2.7 SD for the Walton Blazers.
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Post#272 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Nov 6, 2012 2:20 pm by ardee

colts18 wrote:
ardee wrote:Unrelated to the current discussion, question directed to colts18:

How did you calculate standard deviation for MOV in the 11th highest peak thread? You said you were calculating it w.r.t. the mean of the other teams. Does that mean you calculate the average MOV of the other 29 teams, calculate out the variance of team 1's MOV w.r.t. the mean and then find out the standard deviation via square root?

I believe you are referring to the Walton discussion.

I replaced the Blazers MOV with the MOV with Walton in, then I calculated how many SD they were from the league mean MOV (slightly above 0.00). Based on that I got around a 2.7 SD for the Walton Blazers.


So the average MOV of the league is always 0 right? The Blazers' MOV with Walton in '78 was +10, so to figure out the average MOV of the other 21 teams it would be -10/21.

Variance would be |x-mean|, giving us something like 10.46, the square root of which is 3.23?

Obviously that's different from your answer. Sorry to be a pain but could you walk me through how you arrived at that number? I'm just curious because I was always fascinated by Walton's in/out impact, and if his team was actually better then the '96 freaking Bulls in some form of measure, I'd be interested to know how haha.
SSOL

G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#273 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Nov 6, 2012 2:36 pm by colts18

ardee wrote:So the average MOV of the league is always 0 right? The Blazers' MOV with Walton in '78 was +10, so to figure out the average MOV of the other 21 teams it would be -10/21.

Variance would be |x-mean|, giving us something like 10.46, the square root of which is 3.23?

Obviously that's different from your answer. Sorry to be a pain but could you walk me through how you arrived at that number? I'm just curious because I was always fascinated by Walton's in/out impact, and if his team was actually better then the '96 freaking Bulls in some form of measure, I'd be interested to know how haha.

Yeah the league average MOV is always 0 but for my calculations it was slightly above 0 since I just replaced the Blazers numbers with Walton's full season numbers. I wasn't going to spend the time to make the
adjustments to make the league average 0.

I replaced the Blazers 5.59 MOV with the +8.4 they had with Walton

Rk Team MOV â–ľ
1 Portland Trail Blazers* 8.4
2 Denver Nuggets* 5.22
3 Philadelphia 76ers* 3.94
4 Golden State Warriors* 3.22
5 Los Angeles Lakers* 2.72
6 Houston Rockets* 1.61
7 Cleveland Cavaliers* 1.12
8 Washington Bullets* 1.02
9 Chicago Bulls* 0.9
10 Kansas City Kings 0.88
11 Phoenix Suns 0.73
12 San Antonio Spurs* 0.61
13 New York Knicks -0.01
14 Detroit Pistons* -1.04
15 Seattle SuperSonics -1.55
16 Indiana Pacers -1.77
17 Boston Celtics* -1.98
18 New Orleans Jazz -2.82
19 Milwaukee Bucks -3.12
20 Atlanta Hawks -4.06
21 Buffalo Braves -4.44
22 New York Nets -6.78


league average MOV 0.13
Standard Deviation 3.44
Blazers minus League Average 8.27
Z score with Walton 2.40
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Post#274 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Wed Nov 7, 2012 8:47 pm by Doctor MJ

Alright folks, so what I'm seeing is no immediate signs that the project is going to come back to life.

On the other hand, a 35 project just lacks any kind of credibility, so I don't see any benefit to giving up just yet. Here's what I'm planning at the moment:

We're going to go to 40.

We're going to do a thread per week.

When we near 40 I'll ask people's thoughts. If there isn't more pull to go on, we'll stop it at 40.

Re: The idea of you guys sending me a list. Changing up voting methods so drastically at this point to me makes the list meaningless. It's quite possible we'll do the next project in such a less time-intensive manner, but this one, for better or worse, will continue as is for at least 5 more threads.

C'mon guys, let's finish this up in a solid manner.
In 2007
The rule is the rule. It's not a matter of fairness. It's a matter of correctness.

In 2014
People just misunderstand...You’ve got to use some common sense, too.

I,for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
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Post#275 Re: RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread
Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:22 pm by ardee

Would anyone be interested in the idea of submitting a ballot with your top 20, 30 or 40, how many ever, at the end of the project, and then just totaling the results to see how they contrast the actual list? Would be a fun exercise IMO, would show how much we learnt.
SSOL

G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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