Was Bobby Jones really great defender?

[lorak]

I know all stories about Bobby Jones defense. But does anyone have any data to support his great defensive reputation? Because when I look at his teams DRTG I don’t see all time level defender:

’74 Nuggets
+0.5 drtg (6th place)

‘75
rookie Jones, new coach (Larry Brown)
-2.0 drtg (3rd)

‘76
-0.7 (4th)
rookie Thompson, added Issel

‘77
-3.4 (1st)
Jones played 400 less minutes, added Silas (very underrated defender, IMO better than Jones)

‘78
+0.6 (15th)
no Silas

‘79
-0.6 (11th)
no Jones, new coach during the season, added McGinnis and Scott

Philadelphia
‘78
-0.6 drtg (8th)

‘79
-3.5 (2nd)
Jones 1st season in Phily, but also rookie Cheeks, 500 more minutes for Caldwell Jones, 400 more for Dr J, 1100 less minutes for Collins, no World B. Free and McGinnis (all three bad defenders)

In ’80 and ’81 76ers were even better defensively but Jones played less minutes. And in ’82 when Jones played 2181 minutes, Phily was -3.0 drtg. In ’83, when he played less (1749 minutes), 76ers drtg was better: -3.8.

When Jones left 76ers they regressed slightly (from -0.9 drtg to +0.2) but there were also other changes (for example less minutes for Dr J, no Moses).

So it seems Jones had some positive impact on defense, but his reputation as great all time defender makes him very overrated. (?)

[kasino]

he's team kept a top elite defensive rating
and I don't usually just say look at defensive stats they haven't been perfected but he kept a below 100 defensive rating, since your talking in retrospect and little video to back this up thats all I got
sorry this is the only video I could find

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25H7rT3PfWc
isn't prime Jones actually not pro at all but he was pretty solid, no solid and showing greatness
not to mention US lost this game ending is hilarious it it happened today we would bomb that country

Edit:we wouldn't bomb that country forgot this site has poster from all over the world maybe some Soviets....I think the Soviets clearly cheated and believe and the Americans and Olympic committee wouldn't let this slide

[penbeast0]

Jones was one of the best ever at both playing terrific position defense and using his quickness and athleticism to be a terrific help defender for a non post guy. He wasn't the strong thug type that Silas was; if you need someone pushed and beat on which was a real key back in those days where every team tried to build a low post offense, Silas is one of the greats, but he didn't chase out on the floor the way Jones did or have anywhere near the versatility. Both were not only great individual defenders but guys that teammates would point to when talking about buying into the team defense idea.

As for those Denver teams, hard to believe they played any defense starting (in 1975) Mike Green, Ralph Simpson, and Mack Calvin as their other 3 main players. He made that jump and switch defense work with his ability to play help defense and court intelligence. Adding David Thompson and Dan Issell doesn't do much for your defense either.

[Doctor MJ]

‘77
-3.4 (1st)
Jones played 400 less minutes, added Silas (very underrated defender, IMO better than Jones)

I suppose my first thought here is how strange it is that you're seeing Jones as the most respected defender on a #1 defense as part of your year-by-year analysis, and your only observation relating to Jones is that he played less minutes than the previous year. To me that sounds like someone trying to make a quick case in a certain direction instead of looking to understand how people came to have the beliefs they did.

First thing you'll notice if you start looking at Bobby Jones stats that year is that although his minutes went down significantly, his per minute and efficiency numbers went up enough that he ended up with better stats really from any perspective than the year before. It's hard to imagine anyone thinking Jones became significantly worse that year, but your one line implies he did.

I think I find most telling about this particular year is to look at the details of why Denver was the #1 defense. When we look at the Nuggets 4 factors of defense, we actually find a team that's pretty average except for one factor: TOs caused where they rank 2nd. When we move into basic box score stats, and look at the relevant stat there (steals), Denver ranks easily tops in the league recording almost 200 more steals than the league average.

To me, what all this is saying is that Denver's primary competitive edge on defense was defensive pressure and steals.

Okay, so who was most responsible for that on the Nuggets? First thing to do is to check steal leaders on the team. What do we see? That Jones has way more steals than anyone else on the team.

So stopping right there. This is a team whose defense is thriving based on steals, Jones is the one being called the defensive star, and he is also the one stealing the ball. Pretty obvious how that all relates together right?

So now the question becomes not why people think he's a great defender, but what if anything could have made all that occur that was not due to Jones' abilities? I'll took a couple stabs at it:

1. A great thief only works well if he has protection. If the team has some great man and help defenders, then the thief can do his work, but he might not be the most valuable defender.

So who was the team's relied upon top man defender? Jones
And who was the team's top shotblocker? Jones

Let's pause for a second and consider that Jones averaged both 2 steals and 2 blocks per game this season. Something no other non-big has ever done in the NBA while playing a full season, and Jones did it in the aforementioned limited MPG while having people say he was playing absolutely selflessly (not with a Jevale McGee-esque hanging his teammates out to dry).

So, in a season where his team was the best defense in the league, every analysis looking for an explanation points to Jones doing extraordinary things that NBA players just don't do.

2. That was the only #1 defense year, if Jones was responsible for it, why didn't it continue after year?

Well, clearly he wasn't solely responsible for it. More productive though to analyze the details like I did before though.

The Nuggets defense drops from 1st to 15th. The big reason for this, 4 factor-wise, is that their one standout area (turnovers) falls back to earth. The team steals 130 less than the year before. Why was that? Well, the team loses a couple strong secondary thieves, and Jones himself steals 49 passes less than the previous year. Presto, you've got a defense that no has a competitive advantage.

So yeah, if you want to say it wasn't all Jones, that's fine. It wasn't. However, it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me, to see how the loss of the team's defensive signature at the same time as the defense fell off, and say that the primary guy involved with that wasn't big part of what the team a #1 defense in the first place.

For anyone looking at Jones career, they can then see that he spends the rest of his career not putting up numbers like he did before. He still racks up All-Defensive accolades which one can rightly argue that he might have gotten some based on his existing reputation. However, it should be noted that even in his diminished state, the 76ers never regretted acquiring him in a trade in exchange for superstar George McGinnis (and the Nuggets would have without question have gone back in time to undo the trade).

This was a player that everybody thought to be a fantastic contributor to a team even when he put up role player numbers, who has a brief peak where he puts up historical numbers on fantastic defenses. I'd say that's a great defender, no doubt about it.

One last note, in case anyone wonders why Jones played limited minutes, the poor dude had epilepsy, severe asthma, and a heart condition. Of course minutes he doesn't play need to be factored in when compared with guys who can play more, but it wasn't a choice made because he wasn't good enough to play more minutes, and as mentioned, he still put up numbers at his peak that you just don't normally see.

[lorak]

Doc,
point about TOV% is good one, but how much credit Jones should get?
I mean, my point isn't that Jones wasn't very good defender. He was! But he wasn't as good as his reputation suggest (or all D selections). I think it's no coincidence that Nuggets with Jones were the best defensively in the one season when Silas played in Denver. (and BTW, -3.4 drtg isn't nothing special, so that number 1-2 defense in the NBA was relatively weak in comparison to other no 1-2 defenses during NBA history).

I would also like to hear explanation why Nuggets slightly improved after Jones left (from +0.6 to -0.6 drtg)? They added bad defensive players (for example McGinnis), lost Jones (by reputation one of the best defenders of all time) and their defense didn't suffered much.

In Phily, the less Jones played, the better defensively 76ers were. Remember, you and others use similar argument against Stockton (Jazz were better when John played less). So what's explanation for that? Where's the evidence (any data?) that Jones was as good defender as his reputation suggest?

[Zion Wembanyama]

‘77
-3.4 (1st)
Jones played 400 less minutes, added Silas (very underrated defender, IMO better than Jones)

I suppose my first thought here is how strange it is that you're seeing Jones as the most respected defender on a #1 defense as part of your year-by-year analysis, and your only observation relating to Jones is that he played less minutes than the previous year. To me that sounds like someone trying to make a quick case in a certain direction instead of looking to understand how people came to have the beliefs they did.

First thing you'll notice if you start looking at Bobby Jones stats that year is that although his minutes went down significantly, his per minute and efficiency numbers went up enough that he ended up with better stats really from any perspective than the year before. It's hard to imagine anyone thinking Jones became significantly worse that year, but your one line implies he did.

I think I find most telling about this particular year is to look at the details of why Denver was the #1 defense. When we look at the Nuggets 4 factors of defense, we actually find a team that's pretty average except for one factor: TOs caused where they rank 2nd. When we move into basic box score stats, and look at the relevant stat there (steals), Denver ranks easily tops in the league recording almost 200 more steals than the league average.

To me, what all this is saying is that Denver's primary competitive edge on defense was defensive pressure and steals.

Okay, so who was most responsible for that on the Nuggets? First thing to do is to check steal leaders on the team. What do we see? That Jones has way more steals than anyone else on the team.

So stopping right there. This is a team whose defense is thriving based on steals, Jones is the one being called the defensive star, and he is also the one stealing the ball. Pretty obvious how that all relates together right?

So now the question becomes not why people think he's a great defender, but what if anything could have made all that occur that was not due to Jones' abilities? I'll took a couple stabs at it:

1. A great thief only works well if he has protection. If the team has some great man and help defenders, then the thief can do his work, but he might not be the most valuable defender.

So who was the team's relied upon top man defender? Jones
And who was the team's top shotblocker? Jones

Let's pause for a second and consider that Jones averaged both 2 steals and 2 blocks per game this season. Something no other non-big has ever done in the NBA while playing a full season, and Jones did it in the aforementioned limited MPG while having people say he was playing absolutely selflessly (not with a Jevale McGee-esque hanging his teammates out to dry).

So, in a season where his team was the best defense in the league, every analysis looking for an explanation points to Jones doing extraordinary things that NBA players just don't do.

2. That was the only #1 defense year, if Jones was responsible for it, why didn't it continue after year?

Well, clearly he wasn't solely responsible for it. More productive though to analyze the details like I did before though.

The Nuggets defense drops from 1st to 15th. The big reason for this, 4 factor-wise, is that their one standout area (turnovers) falls back to earth. The team steals 130 less than the year before. Why was that? Well, the team loses a couple strong secondary thieves, and Jones himself steals 49 passes less than the previous year. Presto, you've got a defense that no has a competitive advantage.

So yeah, if you want to say it wasn't all Jones, that's fine. It wasn't. However, it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me, to see how the loss of the team's defensive signature at the same time as the defense fell off, and say that the primary guy involved with that wasn't big part of what the team a #1 defense in the first place.

For anyone looking at Jones career, they can then see that he spends the rest of his career not putting up numbers like he did before. He still racks up All-Defensive accolades which one can rightly argue that he might have gotten some based on his existing reputation. However, it should be noted that even in his diminished state, the 76ers never regretted acquiring him in a trade in exchange for superstar George McGinnis (and the Nuggets would have without question have gone back in time to undo the trade).

This was a player that everybody thought to be a fantastic contributor to a team even when he put up role player numbers, who has a brief peak where he puts up historical numbers on fantastic defenses. I'd say that's a great defender, no doubt about it.

One last note, in case anyone wonders why Jones played limited minutes, the poor dude had epilepsy, severe asthma, and a heart condition. Of course minutes he doesn't play need to be factored in when compared with guys who can play more, but it wasn't a choice made because he wasn't good enough to play more minutes, and as mentioned, he still put up numbers at his peak that you just don't normally see.

I wonder how much better he could've been without those issues.

[E-Balla]

We have his +/- numbers in Philly. Yes he was a great defender.

Here is defense using D rating (Negative Net number is good):

80

Code: Select all

   On    Off   D rating Net
B. Jones   99.5   102.6   -3.1
Cheeks   98.6   105.5   -6.8
Erving   100.4   102.4   -2.0
Mix   103.7   99.2   4.6
Bibby   103.1   98.7   4.3
C. Jones   99.3   104.7   -5.4
Dawkins   100.7   101.4   -0.7
Hollins   97.2   101.9   -4.6
Collins   101.3   100.9   0.4


81

Code: Select all

   On    Off   D rating Net
B. Jones   96.1   103.1   -7.0
Cheeks   98.4   101.3   -2.9
Hollins   98.8   100.3   -1.5
Dawkins   97.0   102.3   -5.2
Erving   101.2   95.0   6.2
Mix   98.9   99.8   -1.0
C. Jones   99.1   100.3   -1.1
Toney   100.7   98.5   2.2
Richardson   101.4   98.6   2.8


82

Code: Select all

   On    Off   D rating Net
Erving   103.7   104.5   -0.8
Cheeks   102.2   106.8   -4.5
Hollins   103.2   104.9   -1.7
B. Jones   102.5   105.6   -3.1
C. Jones   103.2   105.0   -1.8
Dawkins   99.1   105.8   -6.8
Toney   103.1   104.7   -1.6
Bantom   100.6   105.0   -4.4
Richardson   108.4   102.3   6.0


[Hornet Mania]

Absolutely. Versatile defender who made a lot of heady decisions and seemed to consistently be in the right spot, the other thing that made him great was that he always gave tremendous effort. Coaches often say defense can be improved through effort, Jones had effort to spare.