Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo

Moderators: penbeast0, trex_8063, PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier

Deron or Rondo?

Deron Williams
36
44%
Rajon Rondo
46
56%
 
Total votes: 82

therealbig3
RealGM
Posts: 28,628
And1: 15,067
Joined: Jul 31, 2010

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#81 » by therealbig3 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:21 pm

StojkoVrankovic wrote:Thanks for letting me know Rondo sucks at 3 pointers and FTs. By the way, DWill shot 40% from the field last season.....40%.


It's actually 41% rounding up.

And FG% isn't shooting. Shaq and Dwight Howard led the league for years in FG%...they are not great shooters.

If you want to talk about overall efficiency...Deron still has Rondo beat. 53% TS vs 48% TS.

StojkoVrankovic wrote:The Celtics shot better than New Jersey in FGs/3pointers/FTs, but the Nets had a better offense. Kind of an absurd stat huh?


Not really, because the Nets shot WAY more 3s and FTs, which are the two most efficient shots in the game. As a result, the Nets took a lot less FGA than the Celtics, but scored more points.

StojkoVrankovic wrote:You left out the assists for some reason.


True, Rondo has a greater volume of assists, but passing isn't the only thing that affects TOs...as someone facing greater defensive attention, and as someone also looking to score a lot more, Deron is more susceptible than Rondo in terms of TOs. I think it's better to look at how much offense both of them are producing from their scoring and passing, since high scorers tend to turn it over too:

Rondo: 101 ORating
Deron: 106 ORating

And btw, Deron's AST% was 46.6%, while Rondo's was 52.5%. Not a large difference. And Deron wasn't passing to Pierce, Allen, and KG.

StojkoVrankovic wrote:Once again, did he just decide to take last year off? His team needed him to score more and he shot the worst percentage of his career. He decided to be lazy and turned into a 3 point chucker. Sure, it was the worst of his career but it still happened.


He did score more, but guess what? You take someone who tends to be pass-first and isn't all that comfortable taking a ton of shots, and you basically make him take a ton of shots and surround him with crap talent so that the defense focuses on him...he's going to shoot a crap percentage.

It's not laziness...as I said, the 3 point shot is one of the two most efficient shots in the game. I'd rather he take 3s than midrange jumpers any day, unless he's a super-efficient midrange shooter, and even at his best, he's generally around 40-45% from midrange (which actually is elite). I'd rather he shoot 34% from 3.

100 3s at 34% = 102 points.

100 midrange shots at 45% = 90 points.

StojkoVrankovic wrote:Rondo just averaged 17-11.9-6.7 with fantastic defense in the playoffs. I look forward to the day when he can "take over"


On 50.5% TS and 3.8 TOpg.

And again, I can not stress the difference in talent level of the supporting casts enough. Deron has never played, even in Utah, with the same caliber of supporting cast that Rondo gets to play with.
User avatar
NyCeEvO
Forum Mod - Nets
Forum Mod - Nets
Posts: 22,057
And1: 6,082
Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#82 » by NyCeEvO » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:41 pm

tsherkin wrote:Deron has made it apparent that he's one of the best passers in the league, so right off of the bat, I disagree with that first ranking, at least with the inclusion of Rondo over Deron (and more particularly, with either of them being quite on Nash's level).

But for me, the fact that Deron doesn't win any of the categories isn't necessarily important, especially in a comparison with Rondo. I think the fact that he's an 18-21 ppg scorer typically over 56% TS. In Utah, he was also shown to be a phenomenal PnR PG. Now that the Nets aren't riddled with injuries and lack of talent (and the Little General is putting him back at the 1...), he should show that again. He showed us in his post-trade games that he clicked pretty well with Brook Lopez, so with the big center, Gerald Wallace in transition and some spot-up shooters, he should get back to double-digit assist output (and his AST% and TOV% were very similar this past season anyway), and his scoring efficiency should rebound.

There isn't a significant gap between Deron and Rondo as passers; Williams IS, however, a more valuable offensive player: similar passing or not, his utility and consistency as a scoring threat is limited. In part, that's by design because the Celtics have had other options, but Rondo's been bad enough that it's harmed his overall productivity. In a down season, Deron declined all the way to league average TS%; in his two best seasons, Rondo was just a hair UNDER league average TS%. That tells us a lot.

In any case, I'd be watching the Nets this year, and Deron in particular, and it should become quickly apparent that Deron is a better PG than Rondo because of his superior offensive ability. He's not as good a rebounder and not as good a help defender but neither is he a liability and offensive impact is more useful from a PG than defensive impact.

EDIT: Tony Parker is another head-scratcher for me; what makes someone rank him over Williams?

I agree with everything you said here.

It's harder to compare PGs than other positions because (usually) it's their responsibility to run the offense for the entire team and know when it's the right time to get themselves involved offensively. There is a symbiotic relationship between the PG's effectiveness and the effectiveness of the whole team.

Would Rondo be viewed at the caliber that he's viewed at now if he and D-Will switched places? I don't think so. When D-Will scores 57points in one game or is able to reach 20+ assists in another like he did last season, it's always thrown to the wind as 'it's easy to put a numbers on a bad team', which is a true to a certain extent.

However, if D-Will and Rondo played on teams with the same talent level, we'd get a better idea of who's better. As Tsherkin alluded to, Rondo's offense was so bad in 2010 that Kobe barely guarded him in the Finals because everyone knew Rondo's offense was poor. And because of that, Rondo was relegated to mostly passing the ball to his teammates in their right spots rather than being a threat to score. If D-Will is on Boston in 2010, not only would Deron find people in their right spots but there's no way that he can be left alone on offense the way he Rondo was in 2010 by Kobe.

Rondo's offense has progressed since that time but he's a woefully terrible free throw shooter and his jumper is still very shaky.

Billy King and Avery Johnson told D-Will that he'd have to be the primary scorer while Lopez was out most of the season and because he was the main focus for the opposing defense, he saw double-teams and triple-teams which led to a league-leading turnover rate. His teammates were far from capable scorers and there were countless number of times when D-Will would give them good passes every game and they would just fumble it away.

Rondo didn't have to worry about that in Boston. Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and KG are all very good players and require high attention all of the time. Even if most teams were able to do an adequate job guarding the Big 3, Rondo's ability to drive and kick is usually what caused the opposing team's defense to crumble, not Rondo's shooting. But D-Will can break down a defense just as good as Rondo, can drive and kick just as good, and he can run PnR effectively way better than Rondo because D-Will has a reliable consistent jumper that the opposing defense can't leave alone.

In the few games that Lopez was healthy for when D-Will was traded to the Nets at the end of the 2010 season, Lopez and D-Will thrived in PnR and their numbers were fantastic.

Now, add Joe Johnson (perennial allstar), Gerald Wallace (former allstar, great defender), Mirza Teletovic (outstanding long range shooter from Europe) to that mix and we should be able to once again see how well D-Will manages an offense that has capable scorers.
kasino
Banned User
Posts: 7,257
And1: 24
Joined: Jan 30, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#83 » by kasino » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:48 pm

Dwill has played on talented teams in Utah and I would say Rondo since 09 is still the better PG, it's arguable but Rondo is supposed to be in these sorts of arguments. Not in the Billups/Parker threads as he was a week or so ago.
tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,406
And1: 19,943
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#84 » by tsherkin » Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:07 am

Jase wrote:
Being "one of the best" passers doesn't make him a top passer. Even if he is the third best passer behind Nash and Rondo, that isn't a slight. And I really don't think he is a better passer than Rondo.


I've yet to see a Rondo supporter address the clear decline in Boston's efficacy on offense as he taken on a larger role. Prove that his volume APG are more valuable than Dre Miller in Cleveland or Mark Jackson, etc, and we'll have somewhere to move forward. Rondo's a very good passer but his scoring inadequacy seriously impacts his ability to affect team offense outside of relatively neutral-impact assists. And with Boston's defensive depth, his impact at that end isn't as valuable as his supporters would like to believe either. And as I've said elsewhere, though there are other things with similar impact, it remains true that if Rondo hadn't been so bad as a scoring threat, Boston would have won the 2010 title (again, Ray Allen and other factors had similar impact but it relates to the theme).

Rondo IS a good talent, but people miss a lot and comparisons like this highlight that.

More to the point, Jase, there hasn't been anything presented that suggest Rondo is a better passer than Deron. Not a thing. When I see a correlation between Rondo playmaking and improving (rather than declining) offensive efficacy, I'll start thinking more seriously about that point but Rondo's been getting more assists on progressively less effective offenses while not improving as a scorer, which isn't exactly a stunning resume next to what Deron has done.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk
kasino
Banned User
Posts: 7,257
And1: 24
Joined: Jan 30, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#85 » by kasino » Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:17 am

since 09 Celtics averaged the 3rd best FG% in the league
tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,406
And1: 19,943
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#86 » by tsherkin » Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:37 am

kasino wrote:since 09 Celtics averaged the 3rd best FG% in the league


Which does not represent total offense, of course. They've seen a noticeable trend of decline in their overall offensive efficiency since he's started to take over. Team FG% is no more useful than individual FG%.
Josephpaul
Banned User
Posts: 7,261
And1: 295
Joined: Jan 28, 2012

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#87 » by Josephpaul » Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:52 am

tsherkin wrote:So, off in another thread on the GB, this came up.

Stebo_SSK wrote:Deron Williams by no means is a better PG than Rondo. The only way Deron is better is when he has to be the 1st option of scoring but then again, teams that need their PG to be the 1st option usually arent going very far. CP3 is the best all around PG in the game, Rondo is and Nash are a toss up for best passer with Nash a slight edge on offense and Rondo far superior on defense and then Deron is 4th or 5th. Actually the advance stats will show that Deron and Nash are on par with each other defensively.

Best Passer - Nash/Rondo
Best Shooter - Nash easily
Best All Around - CP3
Best Scorer - Rose
Best Defense - Rondo then CP3 close behind

Deron doesnt win in any of these categories.
I agree. Deron is probably the last above average pg


Thoughts?
kasino
Banned User
Posts: 7,257
And1: 24
Joined: Jan 30, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#88 » by kasino » Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:52 am

since he started the rest of the starting unit has only gotten older and even more of a halfcourt team
there's nothing that says anyway decline can be contributed to Rondo
as the 2nd best defender on his team his defense highly valued
his rebounding as one of their top 5 rebounders
while you say their FG% doesn't matter for a defensive team that isn't playing in transition to find the right guy in a halfcourt offense shouldn't be overlooked
Josephpaul
Banned User
Posts: 7,261
And1: 295
Joined: Jan 28, 2012

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#89 » by Josephpaul » Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:54 am

Deron is good PG , but he's certainly not better then cp3, Nash, rondo , rose etc. He's pretty slow defender as well
drejeronfire
Banned User
Posts: 1,066
And1: 22
Joined: May 12, 2012

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#90 » by drejeronfire » Sat Sep 1, 2012 1:11 am

Deron pretty easily.

People like to hype up Rondo's defense despite the fact that it consists primarily of getting beat, gambling or steals, and letting his teammates do the dirty work.

Rondo has also proven time and time again that he can't lead a team. He has no composure when games get physical... Don't get me wrong Rondo is a Top 10 point guard but he's closer to 10 than he is 5.
kasino
Banned User
Posts: 7,257
And1: 24
Joined: Jan 30, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#91 » by kasino » Sat Sep 1, 2012 2:10 am

thats just ridiculous
if he's getting beat its way less then anyone else at his position and perimeter

how can't he lead a team when he has taken them to the Finals and ECF already having the 5th most triple-doubles in league PS history, first player with 2 game 7 triple doubles...the man is made of ice
User avatar
thizznation
Starter
Posts: 2,066
And1: 778
Joined: Aug 10, 2012

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#92 » by thizznation » Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:18 am

kasino wrote:thats just ridiculous
how can't he lead a team when he has taken them to the Finals and ECF already having the 5th most triple-doubles in league PS history, first player with 2 game 7 triple doubles...the man is made of ice



Ahh, so that's why his jumper is always so cold! :)
CKRT
Analyst
Posts: 3,367
And1: 404
Joined: Jan 20, 2011

Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#93 » by CKRT » Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:32 am

kasino wrote:
how can't he lead a team when he has taken them to the Finals and ECF


I'm sure KG had nothing to do with that right? Rondo hasn't carried anything. The more responsibility he's been given, the worse the Celtics offense has gotten, but that doesn't matter because KG anchors a great defense even in his mid thirties. Rondo fans just don't want to believe that KG is still the Celtics best player.
lilojmayo wrote:Juice is not a chucker, like say James Harden
tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,406
And1: 19,943
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#94 » by tsherkin » Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:38 pm

kasino wrote:since he started the rest of the starting unit has only gotten older and even more of a halfcourt team
there's nothing that says anyway decline can be contributed to Rondo


There's also nothing saying that he's improving them on offense. They aren't maintaining and they aren't improving, so of what value are his offensive contributions, such as they are?


as the 2nd best defender on his team his defense highly valued
his rebounding as one of their top 5 rebounders

while you say their FG% doesn't matter for a defensive team that isn't playing in transition to find the right guy in a halfcourt offense shouldn't be overlooked


eFG% correlates a lot more strongly with winning than does raw FG%. The Celtics' FG% was higher than most because they took fewer 3PA/g than most (24th in the league). Well, that and KG was a 50% FG player.

They were 5th in the league in FT%, which Rondo obviously limited because of his ineptitude at the line. They were 2nd in AST, to which he obviously contributed (although it's a neutral observation).

The point I was trying to make wasn't that Rondo sucks, but there's this perception that because he produces a lot of assists, he's this elite offensive player, and he's not. Those assists are coming in much the same fashion as we saw from Action and Dre and a couple of the other guys I named. There is no obvious correlation between Rondo's increasing offensive load and positive offensive contribution. There's some slight correlation with decline, but as you note, there are some noisy factors like missed games and aging players which make that an unreliable conclusion. More likely, what it says is that Rondo's increased load hasn't changed anything about their offense and that, as before, the Celtics offense is driven by whatever the Big Three were producing in a given game. Which makes a lot of sense.
User avatar
TwentyOne920
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,679
And1: 129
Joined: Jun 29, 2012

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#95 » by TwentyOne920 » Sat Sep 1, 2012 3:04 pm

I like to think of it this way: If Rondo's a guy who averages a double-double and is a threat for a triple double, then why is Boston's offense 25th (which is worse than the Deron + Crash + scrubs mess in New Jersey, ranked a bad 23rd)?

Of course, part of this may be due to the fact that unlike a lot of PGs Rondo doesn't finish the break when he can, instead electing to wait for a teammate to dump the ball off on for an assist.
bertrob wrote:Any casual fan saying anything about Tim Duncan is usually wrong


bobly wrote:Kobe locked up his All Defensive Team this year after he blocked Lebron in the all-star game.
KGboss
RealGM
Posts: 21,217
And1: 10,097
Joined: Mar 03, 2011
Location: Boston Garden
       

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#96 » by KGboss » Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:32 pm

TwentyOne920 wrote:I like to think of it this way: If Rondo's a guy who averages a double-double and is a threat for a triple double, then why is Boston's offense 25th (which is worse than the Deron + Crash + scrubs mess in New Jersey, ranked a bad 23rd)?

Of course, part of this may be due to the fact that unlike a lot of PGs Rondo doesn't finish the break when he can, instead electing to wait for a teammate to dump the ball off on for an assist.


This happens but it doesn't happen any where close to enough to mess with overall per game type numbers. Common misconception of Rondo's game right there.
User avatar
lukekarts
Head Coach
Posts: 7,168
And1: 335
Joined: Dec 11, 2009
Location: UK
   

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#97 » by lukekarts » Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:45 pm

I don't particularly rate either of them as much as others - both guys frustrate me no end.

But I'd take Deron, because his flaws are less limiting and his impact on team performance is very clear.
There is no consolation prize. Winning is everything.
kasino
Banned User
Posts: 7,257
And1: 24
Joined: Jan 30, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#98 » by kasino » Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:05 pm

no correlation to KG skyrocketing FG% coming with Rondo as his playmaker
and their eFG% has ranked 5 since 09 as well

but Williams is better
tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,406
And1: 19,943
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#99 » by tsherkin » Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:18 pm

kasino wrote:no correlation to KG skyrocketing FG% coming with Rondo as his playmaker
and their eFG% has ranked 5 since 09 as well


Reduced shooting volume and dramatically superior spacing from two other significant scoring threats will do that. Yeah, absolutely, the proportion of his baskets in Boston which have been assisted is higher, but that's partly because he's taking fewer overall shots, maintaining fresher legs by playing fewer minutes and because the team passes very well. Oh, and again, the spacing from the two other major scoring threats on his team. Remember that in 2008, for example, Rondo played 77 games... and 29.9 mpg, posting 5.1 apg. And yet Garnett's FG% jumped from 47.6% the year before on 17.6 FGA/g to what is still his career-high of 53.9% on 13.9 FGA/g... 3.7 fewer attempts per game and playing 32.8 mpg instead of the 39.4 mpg he played in his final season with the Timberwolves.

Pierce took 13.7 shots per game and averaged 19.6 ppg on 59.9% TS (including 39.2% from downtown on 4.6 attempts per game) and Ray Allen added 17.4 ppg on 13.5 FGA/g (58.4% TS). They also had 39.3% from Eddie House on 3.8 3PA/g and 38.0% on 3.8 3PA/g from James Posey, spacing out the floor at all of the different positions except when Perkins was playing center.

That overwhelming abundance of difference in team offense and proportion of role on offense, coupled with reduced minutes, was far more important than Rondo's appearance. You'll notice KG's FG% has actually been declining over the last few years? Not getting better as Rondo has shouldered an increased offensive load, as you'd expect if it was him who had that impact. He's still doing quite well for himself, better than in Minny, but the aforementioned factors are still there.
kasino
Banned User
Posts: 7,257
And1: 24
Joined: Jan 30, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo 

Post#100 » by kasino » Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:28 pm

KG has been getting older and it's not a steadily decline its has gone up and down
but the team's eFG% has been as good as ever with his entire team only getting older

Return to Player Comparisons