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Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo

Moderators: tsherkin, Doctor MJ, nate33, penbeast0, rrravenred

Deron or Rondo?

Deron Williams
36
44%
Rajon Rondo
46
56%
 
Total votes : 82

Post#106 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:39 pm by kasino

he was assisted on 76% of his points thats 12 points of his 15.8
11 of Pierce 19 points come from Rondo plays
not incorrect they aren't iso players any longer all now rely on his playmaking
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Post#107 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:19 pm by tsherkin

kasino wrote:he was assisted on 76% of his points thats 12 points of his 15.8
11 of Pierce 19 points come from Rondo plays
not incorrect they aren't iso players any longer all now rely on his playmaking


Not every assist comes from Rondo, though, there are plenty of other passers on that team. Or did you forget that Pierce averaged 4.5 apg himself, while Garnett managed 2.9 and Ray averaged 2.4? All of them while playing comparatively few minutes per game compared to your normal starter.

And again, though you keep ignoring it, on that kind of shooting volume, it's easier for a single pass here or there to affect things. Consider:

Last season, Garnett made roughly 6.5 field goals per game, which means he was assisted on ~ 5 of those. He was, in his last Minny season, assisted on 59.2% on 8.4 FGM/g, or ~ 5 per game (we're talking ~ 4.97 in both cases). KG is simply taking 4.6 fewer shots overall compared to those years. He's not being asked to create his own shot quite as much, so the buckets he was getting then are the same buckets he's getting assisted on now.

Lest you forget, and as I remarked previously, Garnett posted up on 440 possessions last year (or 32.4% of his 1359 possessions). He isolated on a mere 3%, or 41 total possessions. But post-ups are essentially isolations from a different part of the floor. He was a PnR roll man on 259 possessions (19.1%), spotted up on 268 attempts (19.7%), had negligible action (~1% each) on hand-offs and around screens, had 117 cuts to the hoop (8.6%), had 39 shots off of offensive boards (2.9%) and had 70 transition possessions (5.2%).

So again, roughly a third of his possessions came in the post, where he managed 163 FGM on 46.7% FG, 9.8% SF and 10.5% TOV. That's pretty good, generally, good enough to rank him 25th in the league. Everyone knows that, left block, that turnaround over his shoulder moving towards the baseline is money, his go-to move. He employed that very well. Most of those possessions were straight isos, with Rondo dumping it in and then buggering off because he knew better than to stick around because his man would sink in on KG, knowing that Rondo can't shoot the 3.

Also, consider that an "assist" will sometimes be something as simple as Garnett getting GREAT position in the post and then Rondo making an obvious, open pass to KG (with his man sealed on his back) that KG turns into a jumper.

Now, that's a legitimate assist and should be recorded as such, but in the context you're trying to assemble of Rondo creating all of Garnett's points and KG relying, that's a prime example of a possession where Rondo created bug-all, KG did all of the work himself and Rondo just delivered the ball with a clear, open pass. That happened a lot (mostly with KG posting in the middle after setting an off-ball screen while Rondo dribbled at the top of the circle), it was a staple play. Sometimes Pierce or Ray threw that pass, with equal efficacy. Sometimes Bradley, etc. Keep that in mind.

Meantime, my word, what did the Celtics do WITHOUT Rondo? He missed 13 games, during which they went 8-5 (minding that he occasionally missed games with other significant players). Given the way you've talked about him, you'd assume that their offense collapsed in his absence, but clearly that wasn't the case. They were a middling offense with him (15th ranked and he had an offensive RAPM of +0.6). I agree that the decline of the Big Three is a big part of why Boston's offense has been flagging of late... in fact, I whole-heartedly concur. I think, though, the disconnect you're not addressing is that if Rondo was so good on offense, then the team would be a lot better on O than they have been given the efficiency of the players on that team. One big part of it is that he's such a bad scoring threat that it actually drags down his overall offensive impact, despite the fact that he's one of the best passing points in the league, a remark I do not contest at all.

Rondo, as I've said before, IS a good PG. But you're comparing him to a much better one when we talk about Nash. When you talk about Deron, his impact on a game is better because he isn't mostly useless as a scoring threat and he's still at LEAST as good at creating for others, controlling tempo, etc... and there's literally no evidence pointing towards the idea that Rondo's better. Comparable as a playmaker, certainly, but not better... and certainly not better overall.

EDIT:

Forgot to mention another common play the Celtics use, one that Orlando uses as well, and really any half-way savvy team with a post scorer employs: It starts with a high screen and roll that doesn't result in a shot or a pass to the roll man (or a swing pass, for that matter), the ball-handler retains possession. KG fights around, gets post position now that he's rolled deep and receives an entry pass. This was as frequently Pierce sending the pass as Rondo. KG on the right elbow/mid-post, turns middle, BOOM, jumper. Would you call that Rondo "creating" something (or Pierce, for that matter), or KG using the screen to create the look himself, sealing his man to create an easy, direct pass that leads to his own shot?

Anyway, I could go on ad nauseum. Most post players get 60-66% of their shots assisted, or thereabouts, when they're taking a significant number of shots. When they're not being asked to create 17+ FGA/g, that proportion naturally rises. KG's able to use simple plays to score and on which he is often assisted because they spread the ball around to THREE scorers and as a result don't have to aggressively isolate and create their own shots as often. This is an ASSUMED component of a team that has such a wealth of scoring talent.

In 2011 and 2012, Wade's posted the highest proportion of assisted field goals of his career. In the 5 years leading up to that, he managed no higher than 29.2% but in 2011, BOOM, 36.7. Then 39.9% last year. Hell, even Lebron was assisted on over 37% last season, the highest he's seen in the last 7 years. Bosh too, peaked at 60.9% pre-Miami, but hovered mostly at 50-57%. Miami? 59.9 and 64.9%.

This is simply what happens when you conglomerate talent.

EDIT 2: Thought of ANOTHER play the Celtics use to get KG the ball in the post that has nothing to do with the ball-handler until the final entry pass (aka is created by Garnett moving without the ball, not truly by the action of the guy who delivers the ball and is frequently credited for an assist because KG makes quick moves). Ball-handler, usually Rondo (but sometimes Bradley), stalls a little above the top of the circle with KG on the elbow (often left side, Pierce on right block); Pierce comes up from the post to receive the ball above the arc and Rondo/Bradley cuts out of the way.

The ball-handler down-screens and KG dives to the spot vacated by Pierce and receives an entry pass while Ray, who is usually in the pocket on what is now the strong side, was cutting baseline to take his man well away from KG for the iso. It's a classic piece of set offense, and the Spurs love it (and have for 20 years or so) that's not really reliant upon the talent of the ball-handlers, just a very basic piece of coordinated team offense.
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Post#108 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:24 pm by Chuck Texas

Im actually stunned how many people would rather have DWill as their pg than Rondo. Now Ive seen way more Rondo games since his teams always have deep playoff runs and get more national TV coverage so maybe DWill is similar but pretty much every Boston game I see I come away thinking Rondo is the most impactful player on the floor.
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Post#109 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:26 pm by therealbig3

Texas Chuck wrote:Im actually stunned how many people would rather have DWill as their pg than Rondo. Now Ive seen way more Rondo games since his teams always have deep playoff runs and get more national TV coverage so maybe DWill is similar but pretty much every Boston game I see I come away thinking Rondo is the most impactful player on the floor.


I come away thinking it's easily Garnett. The Celtics are not nearly the same team without him, while they didn't miss much of a beat without Rondo this season.
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Post#110 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:30 pm by Chuck Texas

I dont disagree with KG's importance but missing Rondo for a few RS games is far different than if he was missing in the PS. Teams with Boston's talent can afford to miss a key player for a stretch of games without a huge dropoff against the lesser overall competition of the RS.
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Post#111 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:31 pm by therealbig3

And FWIW, the idea that Rondo is superior defensively, but that it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things since Deron is a lot better offensively, IS supported by RAPM:

Rondo: +1.0 (+0.6 offense, +0.4 defense)

Deron: +2.4 (+3.3 offense, -0.9 defense)

Rondo has a big advantage defensively (btw, mainly because Deron was really bad, not because Rondo was really good...note that he's barely above average), but Deron has a huge advantage offensively, like impact that's 5.5 times larger than Rondo's offensive impact.

RAPM is not perfect, but this pretty much matches the eye test perfectly. Deron just pressures a defense a lot more than Rondo, while their overall defense doesn't play much into the big picture. PGs in general mainly impact a game with their offense.
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Post#112 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:32 pm by therealbig3

Texas Chuck wrote:I dont disagree with KG's importance but missing Rondo for a few RS games is far different than if he was missing in the PS. Teams with Boston's talent can afford to miss a key player for a stretch of games without a huge dropoff against the lesser overall competition of the RS.


It's just one game, but when Rondo got suspended against Atlanta, Pierce stepped up big time and single-handedly won the Celtics game 2 without him.
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Post#113 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:36 pm by Chuck Texas

meaningful sample size there bro

Either way DWill has no excuses this year. He has proven veterans surrounding him including one he supposedly hand-picked in JJ. Ill be happy to come back and eat my words if he has the year he should with this roster. Hopefully they will meet Boston in the PS and we can measure them head to head when it counts.
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Post#114 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:39 pm by tsherkin

Texas Chuck wrote:Im actually stunned how many people would rather have DWill as their pg than Rondo. Now Ive seen way more Rondo games since his teams always have deep playoff runs and get more national TV coverage so maybe DWill is similar but pretty much every Boston game I see I come away thinking Rondo is the most impactful player on the floor.


I've yet to see a Boston game where I thought that, personally. He's a very good player, but I think it's pretty clear that the three veterans doing what they do is far more important than what Rondo does. Now, having said that, you couldn't just slap some random dude on the team and have him do what Rajon does, that much is clear: he's a talented player... but if he were as good as people want to believe, we'd be seeing different things in what's happened with the team's offense as he's begun shouldering more of the responsibility. Naturally, when people look at stuff like team ORTG and so forth, it's going to be somewhat deflated as a result of the fact that he's a boob of a scorer, and that kind of ignores the impact he does exert with his playmaking... which really is quite good. He's right up there with someone like Deron, just not any BETTER in that respect and he's comfortably worse as an offensive player because he's so much more passive and less efficient, less versatile, etc.
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Post#115 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:40 pm by therealbig3

Texas Chuck wrote:meaningful sample size there bro


LOL, true, like I said, it's just one game.

But I remember it, because I remember the media going nuts, and talking about how the Celtics without Rondo had no chance whatsoever, and that he was their MVP.

Then Pierce steps up and seemingly effortlessly destroys Atlanta.
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Post#116 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:43 pm by therealbig3

@tsherkin

I remember you saying before that you thought Rondo was a better playmaker than Kidd. Why do you think that? Like, where do you see Rondo's passing and creation ability in comparison to Kidd's?

I personally think Kidd was better on either side of the ball, and even though he wasn't great offensively, and even though he also was really unimpressive as a scorer...he didn't seem as passive as Rondo, and he at least seemed a little more effective as a scorer and outside shooter.
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Post#117 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:53 pm by kasino

whats being ignored is any contributions that Rondo makes
if he is being assisted on 5 of his 6 makes their is only one basket in which he makes on his own shot
the rest of the information is nice but on average one make is coming from his own creation
the majority coming from someone else playmaking
If you don't want to say KG's offense don't only come from Rondo but he is he is responsible for more then 50% of the teams playmaking when on the floor and is getting 11.7 of their 23.5 assist per game, about 33% of all field goals per game coming from his playmaking
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Post#118 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:57 pm by tsherkin

therealbig3 wrote:@tsherkin

I remember you saying before that you thought Rondo was a better playmaker than Kidd. Why do you think that? Like, where do you see Rondo's passing and creation ability in comparison to Kidd's?


I do think that.

I think he does more in the halfcourt, because even without any kind of serious shooting touch, he's a more dangerous dribble penetrator and he works with screens more effectively. Kidd was, for years, not altogether that different than Rondo, lacking a serious jumper. The major difference was that he was a little better on set 3s and not a useless tit at the foul line, while worse at drawing fouls. Rondo's at least as good in transition (which was Kidd's strength) and takes advantage of driving lanes more effectively.

Kidd was a little more willing to let fly, even if he missed, though. I remember watching the 03 Nets and just cringing every time he shot because he was pretty bland that year. Not as bad as Rondo, I mean he managed to get ABOVE league average scoring efficiency while posting 18.7 ppg on 15.6 FGA/g, but he was 29 and a 9th year vet at that point, having been developing his jumper the whole time. He was something like +0.7 over LgAv TS that year, nothing remarkable, but still. League average on long 2s, weak-sauce crap at the rim, mediocre but decent from 3 and very good at the line. Sort of like your typical late prime season from Kidd. He was always a decent shooter with his feet set who didn't draw fouls and sucked when he got to the rim.

In any case, Rondo is an above-average finisher around the rim with more athletic ability, so even when he sees a little gap, sometimes he can force the issue. Often, he won't SHOOT when he does that, but very frequently he'll at least move the defender and that helps.

Plus, remember, the Celtics are a well-oiled machine. These vets have been playing together now for a half-decade. They don't even need a particularly clever coach to show them how to play D or O, they know how to play with one another and have REAMS of talent. They spam basic sets and Rondo knows how to fit into those sets pretty well, so he racks up big-time assists on those plays. I described three or four of them in my post above... and it needs be said that he makes the right decision there. He's not looking them off, he's not looking to iso, he makes a simple, easy entry pass to Garnett. Or he stalls the ball on the perimeter until Ray gets free, or he enters the ball into Pierce on the right block. He's got a plethora of really good options in the halfcourt and, apart from being gun-shy about shooting a lot in transition, he does pass VERY well in those moments. He sucks at scoring (like, EEW, 0.74 PPP as the ball-handler in the PnR last year, blergghhh, terri-bad) but that doesn't matter because the REST of the team spaces and moves so well that even his ineptitude there can be countered... and he counters his own scoring suckitude by, again, being one of the best passers at his position. Not the best, not clearly better than Deron or Paul, clearly inferior to Nash and you can start making arguments about the quality of Rubio's passing versus Rondo's, but that's basically it.

That puts him in some strong company, particularly when you note that he IS an above average defensive rebounder for his position and that he IS a good defender (even if perimeter defenders have limited overall impact, it's still a feather in his gap and he is one of the best PG help defenders in the league, one of the very best).

Anyway, TL;DR, he's more athletic than Kidd ever was and, at least in part due to that, he finishes better at the rim and draws more fouls. He presents a better threat in the half-court, so he does more than ineffectually posting up and hoping things work, whereas Kidd's greatest strength was getting a board and igniting the break. I'm not doing Kidd justice, because he was obviously talented at more than just pushing the ball, but Rondo's a better half-court playmaker because he's more dangerous there with his athleticism, more mobile.
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Post#119 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:59 pm by tsherkin

kasino wrote:whats being ignored is any contributions that Rondo makes
if he is being assisted on 5 of his 6 makes their is only one basket in which he makes on his own shot
the rest of the information is nice but on average one make is coming from his own creation
the majority coming from someone else playmaking


I discussed this already; those are the same plays that every guard KG's played with ever helps him on, it's nothing unique to Rondo... and MANY of those assists are coming on direct passes that KG sets up without aid from the perimeter player. There's a very large difference between crediting a player for creating offense for another and that player creating the look himself and then getting a very simple 10-foot pass with a defender sealed behind him after he's carved out the space in the post and made life easy for the perimeter player. Particularly since Bradley, Allen and Pierce all run the same sets for KG. It's classic post offense, that's nothing special happening from the perimeter, not really worthy of mentioning.

You keep peddling your nonsense, though, that's fine. You don't want to listen to the reams and reams of evidence that disagrees with your belief, I get that. It's a little overwhelming, being this wrong, and it can take some time to adjust. Some never do. And I'm done talking to you, because bashing my head against a wall isn't a clever thing to do. The wall won't move, even if it's in the wrong place.
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Post#120 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 7:11 pm by smith2373

LikeABosh wrote:I think laimbeer needs to add rondo to his sig

We're using playoff success to put rondo above deron williams? That's beyond stupid. Especially since rondo never led his team to the playoffs and his inability to hit anything outside of 10 feet cost them the title in 2010. I'd love to see what Deron could do when you replace boozer with garnett or okur with duncan.

The only point I'm taking over Deron is Chris Paul. Those two have the best balance of scoring +20 points and getting +10 assists than any other player in the league.

Also, I don't know what the appropriate stat is, but haven't the celtics had a mediocre offense since rondo has taken over?


Rondo has been the Celtics best player since 2010. Just saying.

And LOL at Rondo costing the Celtics the 2010 Finals. If it wasn't for Rondo, the Celtics don't get past Cleveland or Orlando but anyway...you're really blaming Rondo for the loss?

What about the Celtics big-man not boxing out and the Lakers grabbing every rebound possible? What about Ray Allen breaking the record for most consecutive missed shots in the Finals? What about KG being outplayed by Pau?

Placing the blame on Rondo is laughable.

As for the topic at hand, I'd take Deron over Rondo and this is coming from a Celtics fan.
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Post#121 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 7:22 pm by kasino

then what credit does any point deserve for playmaking if every guard does it
he's far more assisted on at the rim and from 16ft where he gets most of his points and most efficient at
and Rondo does more of the playmaking then any of those player combined, although apparently not important hopefully it stays the same for all PG's
at the rim--147 of 210 for 70% assisted on .823%
16 ft--211 of 442 of 47.7% assisted on .919%
maybe at the rim could be seen as something all PG's do although I do remember entry passing being so highly valued when talking about Nash/Shaq would work together
but for the season most of his shots(38%) came from 16 fit and as you see 91.9% of them coming from someone else playmaking for the most part that would be Rondo

peddling idk
but not only is KG benefiting from so is the rest of the Celtics
we can stop tho I'm not sure which of us is the wall, I know one wall is never wrong
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Post#122 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 7:23 pm by tsherkin

smith2373 wrote:
Placing the blame on Rondo is laughable.


Not it isn't. It'd be laughable if one did so without also acknowledging that there were other issues, but any one of a handful of things cost the Celtics the title. It was a 7-game series, remember? The smallest margin would have potentially changed the outcome. Certainly one player permitting the Lakers to change their ENTIRE defensive plan of attack compared to what they'd done before, what that did for Kobe's energy level...

Surely Ray Allen's offense, the frontcourt's rebounding, a host of things contributed to them losing but some of those issues were huge and Rondo's play was one of them.
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Post#123 Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 7:24 pm by JMAINE_PH

Put Deron Williams on the Boston Celtics and they beat the Miami Heat last year. IMO.
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Post#124 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:12 pm by KGboss

JMAINE_PH wrote:Put Deron Williams on the Boston Celtics and they beat the Miami Heat last year. IMO.


It wasn't Rondo that didn't show up in the heat series. (44-10-8 historic game proves that)

how about if we had a SG that wasn't on one leg and mailing in the season so he could go JOIN Miami, we would have beaten them.
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Post#125 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:29 pm by smith2373

tsherkin wrote:
smith2373 wrote:
Placing the blame on Rondo is laughable.


Not it isn't. It'd be laughable if one did so without also acknowledging that there were other issues, but any one of a handful of things cost the Celtics the title. It was a 7-game series, remember? The smallest margin would have potentially changed the outcome. Certainly one player permitting the Lakers to change their ENTIRE defensive plan of attack compared to what they'd done before, what that did for Kobe's energy level...

Surely Ray Allen's offense, the frontcourt's rebounding, a host of things contributed to them losing but some of those issues were huge and Rondo's play was one of them.


Those issues played a larger factor than Rondo. The Celtics win game 7 if the Celtics big-men box out and play their ability. The Celtics probably could've won in 5 if Ray Allen could've hit a shot after game 2.

Sure the Lakers defensive gameplan against Rondo played a part in the Lakers winning but solely blaming Rondo for the Finals loss is a joke.
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