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Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo

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Deron or Rondo?

Deron Williams
36
44%
Rajon Rondo
46
56%
 
Total votes : 82

Post#121 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 7:22 pm by kasino

then what credit does any point deserve for playmaking if every guard does it
he's far more assisted on at the rim and from 16ft where he gets most of his points and most efficient at
and Rondo does more of the playmaking then any of those player combined, although apparently not important hopefully it stays the same for all PG's
at the rim--147 of 210 for 70% assisted on .823%
16 ft--211 of 442 of 47.7% assisted on .919%
maybe at the rim could be seen as something all PG's do although I do remember entry passing being so highly valued when talking about Nash/Shaq would work together
but for the season most of his shots(38%) came from 16 fit and as you see 91.9% of them coming from someone else playmaking for the most part that would be Rondo

peddling idk
but not only is KG benefiting from so is the rest of the Celtics
we can stop tho I'm not sure which of us is the wall, I know one wall is never wrong
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Post#122 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 7:23 pm by tsherkin

smith2373 wrote:
Placing the blame on Rondo is laughable.


Not it isn't. It'd be laughable if one did so without also acknowledging that there were other issues, but any one of a handful of things cost the Celtics the title. It was a 7-game series, remember? The smallest margin would have potentially changed the outcome. Certainly one player permitting the Lakers to change their ENTIRE defensive plan of attack compared to what they'd done before, what that did for Kobe's energy level...

Surely Ray Allen's offense, the frontcourt's rebounding, a host of things contributed to them losing but some of those issues were huge and Rondo's play was one of them.
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Post#123 Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 7:24 pm by JMAINE_PH

Put Deron Williams on the Boston Celtics and they beat the Miami Heat last year. IMO.
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Post#124 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:12 pm by KGboss

JMAINE_PH wrote:Put Deron Williams on the Boston Celtics and they beat the Miami Heat last year. IMO.


It wasn't Rondo that didn't show up in the heat series. (44-10-8 historic game proves that)

how about if we had a SG that wasn't on one leg and mailing in the season so he could go JOIN Miami, we would have beaten them.
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Post#125 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:29 pm by smith2373

tsherkin wrote:
smith2373 wrote:
Placing the blame on Rondo is laughable.


Not it isn't. It'd be laughable if one did so without also acknowledging that there were other issues, but any one of a handful of things cost the Celtics the title. It was a 7-game series, remember? The smallest margin would have potentially changed the outcome. Certainly one player permitting the Lakers to change their ENTIRE defensive plan of attack compared to what they'd done before, what that did for Kobe's energy level...

Surely Ray Allen's offense, the frontcourt's rebounding, a host of things contributed to them losing but some of those issues were huge and Rondo's play was one of them.


Those issues played a larger factor than Rondo. The Celtics win game 7 if the Celtics big-men box out and play their ability. The Celtics probably could've won in 5 if Ray Allen could've hit a shot after game 2.

Sure the Lakers defensive gameplan against Rondo played a part in the Lakers winning but solely blaming Rondo for the Finals loss is a joke.
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Post#126 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:30 pm by tsherkin

KGboss wrote:It wasn't Rondo that didn't show up in the heat series. (44-10-8 historic game proves that)


And outside of that game, what about then?

In the other 6 games?

17 ppg, 6.67 rpg, 11.5 apg, 4 tpg, 61.1% FT, 44.6% FG, 46.8% TS.

In Game Seven, he tossed out 22 points on 48.1% TS along with 10 boards and 14 assists against 3 turnovers in 43 minutes. Apart from the fairly middling scoring performance, a pretty good game. But they lost by 13 points and posted a team ORTG of 103.5, which is 1.1 points below the league average from the regular season, though better than their putrid 101.0 from the RS.

Can't really say Rondo shouldered the blame in that game the way Pierce played, though. Bass, Allen and KG mostly came through, but the bench produced nothing and Pierce sucked. Rondo was... good, but not great. Now, Game 5? They clearly won that game in spite of him, and he was a HUGE part of their Game One loss. They LOST the game where he went into hero mode on offense (though that's not his fault, people forget that he played 53 minutes to put up those numbers).

My point isn't that Rondo's terrible, but he definitely contributed to them losing with a couple of his games. And again, it needn't be said, but with Kobe sagging off of him so hard, it was inevitable that he'd tend to do alright when he did shoot and that he'd have at least one big game. Bryant was frequently 5-15 feet away from Rondo, sometimes with his back turned; L.A. decided to accept the consequences of letting Rondo take open shots (when he dared) and cut to the rim with very little resistance in order to stop everyone else...

Which is part of why the rest of the team struggled as much as they did.
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Post#127 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:32 pm by tsherkin

tsherkin wrote:Not it isn't. It'd be laughable if one did so without also acknowledging that there were other issues,

Surely Ray Allen's offense, the frontcourt's rebounding, a host of things contributed to them losing but some of those issues were huge and Rondo's play was one of them.


I did say that Rondo wasn't solely responsible.


smith2373 wrote:Those issues played a larger factor than Rondo. The Celtics win game 7 if the Celtics big-men box out and play their ability. The Celtics probably could've won in 5 if Ray Allen could've hit a shot after game 2.

Sure the Lakers defensive gameplan against Rondo played a part in the Lakers winning but solely blaming Rondo for the Finals loss is a joke.


It made a huge difference, this is irrefutable.
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Post#128 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:38 pm by smith2373

I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the person who originally made the post about Rondo.

But the Celtics still would've won despite the Lakers defensive gameplan against Rondo had the Celtics bigs rebounded the ball and boxed out and Ray Allen's play was at least average other than game 2.
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Post#129 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:55 pm by tsherkin

smith2373 wrote:I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the person who originally made the post about Rondo.


Just checking. :)

But the Celtics still would've won despite the Lakers defensive gameplan against Rondo had the Celtics bigs rebounded the ball and boxed out and Ray Allen's play was at least average other than game 2.


Maybe.

And maybe they couldn't outrebound the Lakers bigs because they were huge. And because Kobe was all over the defensive glass as a result of how far off of Rondo he was. Even without the 15 boards in the deciding game, he was averaging over 6.8 rpg from the wing, mostly on the defensive glass, which made a rather large difference and was directly related to the gameplan against Rondo.

Yeah, Ray was crap for much of the series and yeah, Pierce had a rough time against Artest (especially in game 7)... but the Lakers were rather good at defending SFs and hitting the boards. Lest you forget, they WERE the second-best rebounding team in the entire league that season, top 4 on the boards at either end, and a rather good defense themselves (4th in the league). Ray was terrible, but you can just as easily say that if Rondo had presented more of a threat, they wouldn't have needed Ray as much. You can say that if Rondo hadn't gone 5/19 at the line over the SERIES, that might have changed things as well.

Remember that in the series against the Lakers, he opened up with a mediocre game: 13 points, but 6/14 shooting, 1/4 at the line. 8 assists, 2 turnovers, all in a loss. Didn't contribute there.

Game 2, 44.4% FG, 2/5 at the line, 19/12/10 in 42 minutes in a win. Not a great scoring game, but he contributed all around and they won.

Game 3, 42 minutes, 5/10 from the field, 2/4 at the line, 11/8 with 4 fouls in a 7-point loss. Incapable of impacting the game to any serious extent.

Game 4, 5/15 FG, 0/2 FT, 10/5/3 with 3 steals and a turnover in a 7-point win.

Game 5, 9/12 FG, 8 assists and 7 turnovers (!) in a 6-point win. Pierce and KG carried that game. Ray even shot 50% from the field for 12 points (couldn't buy a 3, though).

Game 6, 5/15 FG, 0/2 FT, 6 assists to 3 turnovers, 10/5/6 as L.A. blew the Celtics out 89-67. Played like crap. Ray, by the way, was 7/14 FG, 2/5 3PT, 3/3 FT for 19 points. Rondo wasn't alone in poor play, of course, but he certainly didn't help at all. IMO, Boston's bench pretty clearly sank them in that game, though: 4/26 (2/12 3PT) shooting? Yeah, that game was on the bench sucking majorly.

And of course, Game 7: 6/13 (46.2%) FG, 1/2 3P, 1/2 FT, 14/8/10, 3 turnovers.

Decent game... if you play 34-36 minutes. Rondo played almost 45 and the Celtics lost by 4. In that game... he was more "didn't help them win" than "hurt their chances" in the active sense, because Ray and Pierce both stank. Rondo's TS was maginal because he continued to be TERRIBLE at drawing fouls (mainly because he was parading to the rim without any kind of serious interference as Kobe killed the defensive glass and ignored him). Boston's D was great, I mean the Lakers were putrid in that game on offense, but they couldn't capitalize.
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Post#130 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:02 pm by smith2373

Rondo definitely could've had a better series and I'm not disputing that.

I just don't believe that Rondo was the #1 reason why the Celtics lost. At the end of day rebounding was the biggest reason IMO, of course the Lakers were a very good rebounding team but you don't let a team's starting SG grab 15 rebounds. You don't give a team 2-4 different shot opportunities per possession because you can't grab a defensive board and box the other team out.
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Post#131 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:14 pm by tsherkin

smith2373 wrote:Rondo definitely could've had a better series and I'm not disputing that.

I just don't believe that Rondo was the #1 reason why the Celtics lost. At the end of day rebounding was the biggest reason IMO, of course the Lakers were a very good rebounding team but you don't let a team's starting SG grab 15 rebounds. You don't give a team 2-4 different shot opportunities per possession because you can't grab a defensive board and box the other team out.


You name Kobe's 15 as a reason and don't acknowledge Rondo's role in that?

The reason Kobe was that near to the rim was precisely BECAUSE of Rondo, because of how far off of Rondo he was able to play.
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Post#132 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:28 pm by Doctor MJ

tsherkin wrote:So, off in another thread on the GB, this came up.

Stebo_SSK wrote:Deron Williams by no means is a better PG than Rondo. The only way Deron is better is when he has to be the 1st option of scoring but then again, teams that need their PG to be the 1st option usually arent going very far. CP3 is the best all around PG in the game, Rondo is and Nash are a toss up for best passer with Nash a slight edge on offense and Rondo far superior on defense and then Deron is 4th or 5th. Actually the advance stats will show that Deron and Nash are on par with each other defensively.

Best Passer - Nash/Rondo
Best Shooter - Nash easily
Best All Around - CP3
Best Scorer - Rose
Best Defense - Rondo then CP3 close behind

Deron doesnt win in any of these categories.



Thoughts?


My first thought was Deron, but I'm not all that shocked the voting is close. Things have been quiet for Deron since he went to Jersey.

As far as the break down by categories, the big issue is that when people do that they tend to equate the importance of the categories, and in this case, think of each league leader as some kind of ideal to strive for. Deron's not the best in any one thing but he's excellent all around. But Rondo's shooting is astonishingly bad.
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Post#133 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:44 pm by smith2373

tsherkin wrote:
smith2373 wrote:Rondo definitely could've had a better series and I'm not disputing that.

I just don't believe that Rondo was the #1 reason why the Celtics lost. At the end of day rebounding was the biggest reason IMO, of course the Lakers were a very good rebounding team but you don't let a team's starting SG grab 15 rebounds. You don't give a team 2-4 different shot opportunities per possession because you can't grab a defensive board and box the other team out.


You name Kobe's 15 as a reason and don't acknowledge Rondo's role in that?

The reason Kobe was that near to the rim was precisely BECAUSE of Rondo, because of how far off of Rondo he was able to play.


You bring up a good point honestly.

Although, to be honest I think the style of defense Kobe plays on Rondo is overrated. Kobe is not the only player that sags off Rondo when he defends him, only difference is the majority of other players don't have two 7 footers waiting on Rondo at the rim when he chooses to drive.
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Post#134 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:54 pm by tsherkin

smith2373 wrote:Although, to be honest I think the style of defense Kobe plays on Rondo is overrated. Kobe is not the only player that sags off Rondo when he defends him, only difference is the majority of other players don't have two 7 footers waiting on Rondo at the rim when he chooses to drive.


I don't disagree, but rarely is it quite as blatant as what Kobe was doing in the 2010 Finals. And yes, I agree that the L.A. roster (not just Bynum and Gasol, but Artest and Odom as well) aided GREATLY in enabling what Kobe did. I'm not trying to say Kobe was some miracle defender, I'm trying to say that Rondo's offense was such a problem in that series that, when coupled with the high quality of L.A.'s overall defense that year, it was a huge problem for Boston.

If you'd thrown Deron in there instead, there'd have been a hit to Boston's defense, but the improvement they'd have seen on offense would have easily made up for it and they'd have still made the Finals... and likely picked L.A. apart more effectively on offense, which was indeed a big problem for them in that series in reality.
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Post#135 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sat Sep 1, 2012 10:55 pm by Doctor MJ

Following up here, as it just occurred to me to use something I used earlier today:

Evan Z did a regression analysis for major aspects of offense:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... IM0E#gid=0

Since this thread started with a fixation no who was #1 in the league, here's what comes out in the 3 categories

Effective FG% (helping your team shoot better) - Nash
Turnovers (not wasting possessions) - Paul
Free Throws (getting your team to the line) - Deron

Of note, Rondo is better at eFG than Deron which is really very impressive given his shooting issues, but Deron is better in the other two categories.
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Post#136 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:47 am by therealbig3

Bump...it seems relevant right now, since both guys look like they'll have big years.

It seems Rondo is getting a lot more traction lately, but Deron has played a lot better so far than he did last year, and the Nets overall are better. Have people's opinions changed about these two?
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Post#137 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:35 am by Dr Olajuwon

When Deron was in Utah, I always had him at the Top2 PG, fighting for the Top1 spot with Paul. After he left Utah (I'm not a Jazz supporter, just to make it clear), he has never been the same player to me. Deron is still Top5 PG in the league, but steps behind from Paul or Rondo.
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Post#138 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:41 am by AussieBuck

I'll take an in shape Williams over Rondo but maybe not the fat non defending version of the last couple of seasons.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Post#139 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:14 pm by JordansBulls

I would rather have Deron. Just look at how he upset Melo and the Nuggets in 2010 with 2 of his own starters out of the playoffs.
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Post#140 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:53 pm by therealbig3

AussieBuck wrote:I'll take an in shape Williams over Rondo but maybe not the fat non defending version of the last couple of seasons.


See, I don't really understand why some people keep saying Williams is out of shape or fat...he's always been a bigger PG, but I've never thought he was out of shape...he always plays an uptempo style and plays a lot of minutes, so I don't really see that.

And he's in really good shape this year after the Olympics.
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