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Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks

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Post#161 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:29 pm by Shot Clock

MacGill wrote:
So they started letting Shaq get away with things that were always offensive fouls. He was given a get of of jail card to physically overpower his defender. This started the first wave of floppers who had nothing left to combat this style. Stand your ground and get run over for a dunk or flop and pray for a call.


So no disrespect Shotclock, but this is simply wrong but something I hear about Shaq all too often. So let's start with the misception of the refs letting Shaq get away with anything. There was no one like him, who played the power game like him and coming in as an agile 300 pound rookie who could run the fast break like a pg, the league was unsure of how to call him.


A call is a call. You foul a guy it doesn't matter how big you are it's a foul. Shaq had all the moves. Shoulder into your chest to move you out of the way, elbows to the head while looking like he's just lifting the ball up, the elbow hook sweep to get around his man, the clearout with his left on his one handed jumpers, the steam roll right through you move. I'm sure I missed some, but the whole thing with him getting away with offensive fouls was quite well discussed back in the 90's.

There is no way I will state that he didn't get away with calls, he did, but not because the refs needed to let him go to build up his brand. First year Shaq was already being compared iconically to MJ and the video is on youtube. He was an instant star and did not need the refs help for that. He was just that powerful and it was hard for the league to tell what was Shaq and what was the players flopping.


This was pre-flopping, I'm talking about games before Vlade and the likes resorted to flopping. If they called Shaq for all his offensive fouls he'd have been in trouble a lot and the league doesn't like stars on the bench. They want them scoring points.

How can we penalize Shaq if that is how strong he is versus is he intentionally causing unwanted contact. Now go back to his rookie measurments, played power back to the basket game like no one before him and tell me.

Strength has nothing to do with fouling. Just because you are strong doesn't mean you don't have a normal gear. You know Shaq can safely handle a baby if he had to right?


The flip side to this is how hard other players were allowed to abuse Shaq. Have you ever seen the licks this man took? It wasn't all one sided here but questionable calls which all stars get regardless of what they were doing is part of the game and shouldn't be used to take away from the skill he had at scoring in the post.


A lot of that came later. It was trial and error with trying to shut him down. The refs let him move you out of position illegally so they started improvising.

Take a look at this game. It's the first one I found with Shaq as a the focus from his Orlando days but I'm sure I could find better if I took the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNwjAzJ7cY

6:10 - Doesn't matter how big you are this is a blatant foul and something you saw often from him.
1:03 Shoulder, elbow clear out
Those are just a couple.
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Post#162 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:24 pm by MacGill

A call is a call. You foul a guy it doesn't matter how big you are it's a foul. Shaq had all the moves. Shoulder into your chest to move you out of the way, elbows to the head while looking like he's just lifting the ball up, the elbow hook sweep to get around his man, the clearout with his left on his one handed jumpers, the steam roll right through you move. I'm sure I missed some, but the whole thing with him getting away with offensive fouls was quite well discussed back in the 90's.


OK, but now you are changing what you originally stated. You said that the refs let him get away with it, which is different to this post. I think the opposing player reaction is why people react to this so much but you see it and have seen it per position throughout the history of the league. If anything, at least you knew players didn't pretend to flop ;).

So yes, true, a call is a call but does the nba define what the rule is per player given all are different? No, one rule under human interpretation. If a player could easily absord the contact in the post would the same call be made? It hardly does. Do you think KG & Bynum are evaluated the same in the post? Big bodies with large mass make a bigger splash.

Why this becomes a negative for Shaq, I do not understand? Shaq pushed this to the extreme but he also got called for many offensive fouls which were not as a result of this. To the point where he could barely make any contact or get position without the ref's blowing the whistle. I am not going to penalize him for something the league had to call. And let's be honest, depending on what side of the fence you are on with Shaq, is the one you will remember.

This was pre-flopping, I'm talking about games before Vlade and the likes resorted to flopping. If they called Shaq for all his offensive fouls he'd have been in trouble a lot and the league doesn't like stars on the bench. They want them scoring points.


Don't agree with this. Did you see how many fouls he picked up over his career?

Strength has nothing to do with fouling. Just because you are strong doesn't mean you don't have a normal gear. You know Shaq can safely handle a baby if he had to right?


True but mass combined with strength certainly does and especially when for most of the times you look like a man among boys. So if you played against someone 60-70 pounds lighter, weaker base etc, you'd turn down your game?

And Mike Tyson could shake your hand nice but was he expected to tone down his left?

A lot of that came later. It was trial and error with trying to shut him down. The refs let him move you out of position illegally so they started improvising.

Take a look at this game. It's the first one I found with Shaq as a the focus from his Orlando days but I'm sure I could find better if I took the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNwjAzJ7cY

6:10 - Doesn't matter how big you are this is a blatant foul and something you saw often from him.
1:03 Shoulder, elbow clear out
Those are just a couple.


Well picking a game versus Lattner is always a great starting block ;)

Look, I have already said that yes it happened but to act like this was the sole reason for Shaq's post success is ridiculous. I've played a lot of ball versus guys taller and with more mass than me so unless there becomes a post force generator physics is physics. And as it turned out to be a professional league had problems identifying too much or too little with him.

I am still trying to understand the point you are looking to make? Is it Wilt wouldn't be Wilt, MJ, MJ, Shaq, Shaq, Kobe, Kobe etc all without the aid of superstar calls? And these so-called calls make these superstars who they became?
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Post#163 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:28 am by jaypo

Okay, Shot Clock. I'll use your logic. A foul is a foul no matter the size, stature, or "star power" of the player. Okay. Then here we go. If KG is posting up, and his defende, say Greg Postertag, slaps his arms as hard as he could, chances are, KG's arms would either break or he would be knocked down. When Postertag (I know I'm spelling it wrong) slaps Shaq's arms with the same force, they don't move. By using your logic, it should be a foul either way, right? Hey, you've already made it crystal clear that a foul is a foul. Howeve, why is it that for the majority of his career, Shaq rarely got to the line for those kinds of plays? You whine about him getting away with so much in the post. But you conveniently forget all of the fouls that weren't called in his favor that should have been called. You point to him "lowering his shoulder", but you don't point to the defender using his knee to undercut him, holding him with the arms, and pushing him out. You focus on what Shaq does after these things occur! If the game was called to the letter of the law, Shaq would never have made a field goal in his 19 year career. He would have been at the line evey damn time he touched the ball!

So complain all you want about his "offensive fouls". But don't forget all of the fouls that should have been called before he even had a chance to make those moves in the first place.

Let me also direct you to Mr. Reggie Miller. In the finals, knowing Shaq had 4 fouls, Reggie runs full speed into Shaq and falls. Shaq's back was to Miller, yet, Shaq somehow gets called for a foul. Now, you wanna talk about unfair advantage that Shaq had? What about the fact that every time a player ran into him, he got called for a foul? Why don't you mention those things? And to top it off, did you ever happen to watch MJ play? Do you remember his signature "back to the defender lean back to create space" move? Why do you think it should have been a foul for Shaq to do it if it was okay for MJ to do it? Is it because the defender bounced off of Shaq but not MJ? I thought a foul was a foul either way?? Answer that for me.
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Post#164 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:40 am by Gregoire

Rewatching some games from 2000 Shaq comparing to 67 Wilt I can say:
offensively Shaq far more dominant like a scorer and anchor, as a passer Wilt was better - its like
scoring
Shaq - 9,5
Wilt-7
passing
Wilt-7
Shaq-6
but defensively Wilt was better,espesially as anchor and shot-blocker, and he was better in PnR defense (he was bad,but not like Shaq).
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Post#165 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Fri Nov 2, 2012 2:39 am by nolunch

Regardless stone age's stats, Shaq is all the way. Strong move and power dunk. The most dominant and explosive force in NBA history. With a NBA record of longevity, 20+ & 10+ in 13 consecutive years.
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Post#166 Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak
Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:54 am by nolunch

GetItDone wrote:Shaq easily.

Most dominant player in NBA history and faced far better competition.


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Post#167 Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:16 pm by JordansBulls

nolunch wrote:
GetItDone wrote:Shaq easily.

Most dominant player in NBA history and faced far better competition.


How are you defining the word dominant here? Like most dominant statistically speaking or most dominant size speaking along with production?
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Post#168 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:37 pm by thizznation

here we go again...
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Post#169 Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak
Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:04 pm by GAME TIME

nolunch wrote:
GetItDone wrote:Shaq easily.

Most dominant player in NBA history and faced far better competition.



Shaq has been swept in the post season 5 times in his prime. 94, 95, 96, 98, and 99. That certaintly goes against him being so dominant. He wasn't as dominant as you think.

Stats don't lie, and Wilt clearly had more dominating stats than Shaq. I have Wilt winning this quite comfortably.
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Post#170 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:37 pm by Raaccoonn

GAME TIME wrote:Shaq has been swept in the post season 5 times in his prime. 94, 95, 96, 98, and 99. That certaintly goes against him being so dominant. He wasn't as dominant as you think.

Ignorant statement by a troll poster/account.

#1. Only one of those sweeps took place in the 1st round (94) and two of them took place in the Finals and WCFinals.

#2. Individual dominance means nothing in the context of a team sport.
Shaq was incredibly dominant in most of those series and usually the best or close second best player in them.
His supporting casts and coaches sucked or sucked in comparison to the opposition and that is the reason they lost or got swept it had nothing to do with some sort of failure or lack of dominance by O'neal.

For a nice comparison of legendary players that failed far worse then Shaq in their younger years you can note that Hakeem in his first 8 years lost five times in the first round and even failed to make the playoffs entirely the year before his Peak started.
Jordan also failed to get his team out of the first round in his first 3 years in the league.

Imo it's much worse to lose in the first round in 5 or 6 games then to get swept in the Finals or CNFinals.

Oh and Shaq ended up winning more titles as "the man" then any other player in league history sans Jordan and Russell.

So yeah... you're full of crap.

Stats don't like, and Wilt clearly had more dominating stats than Shaq. I have Wilt winning this quite comfortably.

Not really.
Adjusted for pace Shaq is better then Wilt statistically (in the playoffs) in pretty much every category except for rebounding.
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Post#171 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:09 am by Brenice

Does adjusting Shaq's stats for pace consider Wilt's superior conditioning?
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Post#172 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:34 am by CBB_Fan

Raaccoonn wrote:I think its a fair argument to say that Shaq might have prolonged his dominance from the early 00's had he continued dedicating himself to fitness the way he did in 1998-2000 where he was really shredded physically and in amazing shape.

However Shaq still ended his career with a good 10-12 Super-Star level seasons.
Only Jordan, Kareem, Magic and Russell have a similar amount career wise.


Take into account the type of play Wilt Chamberlain went through, and you'll see he had more durability than Shaq. Wilt never played less than 42 minutes per game, and in one season averaged 48.5 MPG. Shaq never played more than 40 a game.

Also, aside from 1969-1970, Wilt Chamberlain never missed more than 10 games in a season, and in 11 seasons he missed 3 or less. Shaq can say that about 4 seasons, and in 13 seasons he played less than 70 games. So while Wilt only had 12 seasons of dominance to Shaq's 14-16, Wilt's seasons were FAR more stressful in terms of games/minutes played.

There is a reason Wilt Chamberlain played about 6000 more career minutes than Shaq, despite playing 5 less seasons.
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Post#173 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:37 pm by JordansBulls

Brenice wrote:Does adjusting Shaq's stats for pace consider Wilt's superior conditioning?

You mean can Shaq play 48 minutes a game for season like Wilt did?
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Post#174 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:46 pm by RayBan-Sematra

JordansBulls wrote:
Brenice wrote:Does adjusting Shaq's stats for pace consider Wilt's superior conditioning?

You mean can Shaq play 48 minutes a game for season like Wilt did?

Impossible to say but Shaq proved he could handle 38-42mpg during his Young & Prime years without any stamina issues.

I highly doubt Wilt would play more then 40-42mpg in this era so its kind of irrelevant honestly.
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Post#175 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:17 pm by QuantMisleads

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Brenice wrote:Does adjusting Shaq's stats for pace consider Wilt's superior conditioning?

You mean can Shaq play 48 minutes a game for season like Wilt did?

Impossible to say but Shaq proved he could handle 38-42mpg during his Young & Prime years without any stamina issues.

I highly doubt Wilt would play more then 40-42mpg in this era so its kind of irrelevant honestly.

The only thing that's kinda irrelevent is the scrap heap trash of an opinion I'm quoting above, in particular the last line.
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Post#176 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:18 pm by QuantMisleads

Brenice wrote:Does adjusting Shaq's stats for pace consider Wilt's superior conditioning?

No it doesn't. we're just to assume that every player will have the same conditioning whether they play 20 minutes or 100 minutes.
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Post#177 Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:36 pm by nolunch

GAME TIME wrote:
nolunch wrote:
GetItDone wrote:Shaq easily.

Most dominant player in NBA history and faced far better competition.



Shaq has been swept in the post season 5 times in his prime. 94, 95, 96, 98, and 99. That certaintly goes against him being so dominant. He wasn't as dominant as you think.

Stats don't lie, and Wilt clearly had more dominating stats than Shaq. I have Wilt winning this quite comfortably.


Actually Wilt was playing much worse in playoffs than regular season.
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Post#178 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:37 pm by nolunch

CBB_Fan wrote:
Raaccoonn wrote:I think its a fair argument to say that Shaq might have prolonged his dominance from the early 00's had he continued dedicating himself to fitness the way he did in 1998-2000 where he was really shredded physically and in amazing shape.

However Shaq still ended his career with a good 10-12 Super-Star level seasons.
Only Jordan, Kareem, Magic and Russell have a similar amount career wise.


Take into account the type of play Wilt Chamberlain went through, and you'll see he had more durability than Shaq. Wilt never played less than 42 minutes per game, and in one season averaged 48.5 MPG. Shaq never played more than 40 a game.

Also, aside from 1969-1970, Wilt Chamberlain never missed more than 10 games in a season, and in 11 seasons he missed 3 or less. Shaq can say that about 4 seasons, and in 13 seasons he played less than 70 games. So while Wilt only had 12 seasons of dominance to Shaq's 14-16, Wilt's seasons were FAR more stressful in terms of games/minutes played.

There is a reason Wilt Chamberlain played about 6000 more career minutes than Shaq, despite playing 5 less seasons.


Shaq holds a NBA record with 13 consecutive seasons with 20+ and 10+.
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Post#179 Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:42 pm by QuantMisleads

Doesn't mean ****. Wilt averaged 30-20 for his career. If they recorded blocks that would have been near double digits as well.
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Post#180 Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:44 pm by QuantMisleads

nolunch wrote:
Actually Wilt was playing much worse in playoffs than regular season.

Not really. Most of his playoff games are post 1966. Meaning his high scoring days didn't see a lot of time in the playoffs. however, yes, his scoring average did decline even in those years, but this is because defenses tightened up, they defended Wilt with 3-4 players, and Wilt's minutes did not increase in the playoffs like they do with other players. So this notion that he didn't perform as well in the playoffs is not true at all.
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