Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks

[tsherkin]

Hmmm....

Wilt was so many different players that evaluating him is tough. But peak, you're talking 67 Wilt. That's his best mix of defense, passing, sensible scoring, not chasing numbers, etc.

Shaq would do bad things to Wilt, I think he'd have the edge in that encounter because he didn't care what people thought of his style. Wilt was athletically similar to a stronger D-Rob, so he' d do as good a job as anyone could 1v1 on Shaq, but I don't think it'd matter too much. On the flip side, Wilt wouldn't be getting the post position he'd need for that finger roll against Shaq. Of course, he ran hard in transition, rebounded well and had that fade, so it'd be interesting.

[ardee]

Hmmm....

Wilt was so many different players that evaluating him is tough. But peak, you're talking 67 Wilt. That's his best mix of defense, passing, sensible scoring, not chasing numbers, etc.

Shaq would do bad things to Wilt, I think he'd have the edge in that encounter because he didn't care what people thought of his style. Wilt was athletically similar to a stronger D-Rob, so he' d do as good a job as anyone could 1v1 on Shaq, but I don't think it'd matter too much. On the flip side, Wilt wouldn't be getting the post position he'd need for that finger roll against Shaq. Of course, he ran hard in transition, rebounded well and had that fade, so it'd be interesting.

Disagree. By his Sixer/Laker years, Wilt had bulked up to 280-300 pounds. He was quicker then Shaq, had a better standing reach, and more importantly, stronger. Not a slight on Shaq, no NBA player, perhaps even no human, was as strong as Wilt Chamberlain.

Shaq's maximum bench press never exceeded 400. Wilt has been stated to have warmed up with 500, and could touch 525 at times. He used to curl 130 pound dumb-bells. This guy was stronger then Shaq, I don't think you can question it.

A Sixer Wilt is a good match-up for Shaq. By the time he was in his early 70s Laker years, he was so heavy and strong I think Shaq would have his hands full completely. Watch the clips of the Knicks series if you don't believe me. Wilt stands out on the court like the Hulk from Avengers.

[Jeff-Koon]

Shaq had a significantly bigger frame then Wilt and was clearly more muscled and heavier during his Prime / Peak years.

There are no substantiated claims of Wilt's bench press or curl weights during his playing years and some quote from arnie which took place long after retirement is meaningless in this sort of debate.

Wilt clearly wasn't similar to Shaq in terms of power and strength.
Shaq was far stronger and far more powerful.

In terms of running speed I'd say they were about equal or I'd give a small edge to Wilt when we are talking about young years.
Orlando Shaq ran the floor like a gazelle but so did young Wilt.

Very late 60's and early 70's Wilt was definitely far slower in terms of running speed compared to late 90's / early 00's Shaq.
Just watch some video of the two and its obvious.
Shaq could still run like he could in the early 90's but Wilt lost a ton of speed.

In terms of quickness and explosiveness Shaq always has the edge and its not very close.
Wilt just didn't have that cat like quickness or half the explosiveness that Shaq had.

You say Shaq never benched more then 400 but it was reported that he benched 455.

Also Shaq had a much more balanced frame and had a much larger base/core and legs which is most important when posting up.

Sorry but Wilt never displayed anything close to the strength / power on the court even close to what O'neal did.
I saw Russell bully him out of the paint at times... 220lbs Russell.

There is nothing to back up your claims that Wilt was even close to O'neal in terms of brute/strength and power let alone in terms of strength that could be used on the basketball court.

Wilt dwarfing his opponents doesn't mean anything.
Players in general were smaller and lighter back in his day and less into weight training.
Wilt who was ahead of his time in that sense and was a giant like Shaq/Kareem would obviously standout... jeesus.

Reading some of Wilts' tall tales are fun and all but its obvious if you take the time to watch both of them who is stronger and it isn't really close to debatable.
Shaq would bully Wilt like he did everything else and Wilt who was top heavy simply wouldn't have the lower body strength to do anything about it.

Even if 70's Wilt could keep Shaq from bullying him the massive difference in speed/quickness at that point would allow O'neal to abuse him with fakes and spin moves for easy baskets and he'd get many points off transition buckets.

[MacGill]

Disagree. By his Sixer/Laker years, Wilt had bulked up to 280-300 pounds. He was quicker then Shaq, had a better standing reach, and more importantly, stronger. Not a slight on Shaq, no NBA player, perhaps even no human, was as strong as Wilt Chamberlain.

Ardee, let's get this started shall we

I want to start with the underlining here and really put things into a basketball perspective here. Let's start with standing reach:

Shaq was measured at 9'5 and if Wilt was an inch or two more what real advantage does this hold? Neither player had a problem easily dunking or blocking shots, right? And Shaq had a 7'7 wingspan. Ardee, what advantage does this hold for Wilt in this comparison?

Quicker: It is important to point out what year of O'Neal you are referring to here. Orlando Shaq could run the break like a pg and there is video evidence showing this. Even peak Shaq could still get down the floor quickly. If you want to say during Wilt's time when he played he showed more endurance to keep this up longer, sure, I'd agree but you also have to keep things in perspective here. It's not like Wilt was beating everyone down the floor on every play, right? I have watched video of him, like Shaq has done, walking up the court as well. I mean in a quarter mile race tenths of a second are a big deal but to the human eye it doesn't seem like any huge advantage. I fail to see again by position that even if Wilt was quicker how this becomes such an advantage over Shaq.

Re: Not a slight on Shaq, no NBA player, perhaps even no human, was as strong as Wilt Chamberlain. Now this one really caught my attention and I am surprised to hear you state this. Let's put a couple of things to bed here.

Shaq's maximum bench press never exceeded 400. Wilt has been stated to have warmed up with 500, and could touch 525 at times. He used to curl 130 pound dumb-bells. This guy was stronger then Shaq, I don't think you can question it.

Basketball isn't weightlifting and the weight distribution of a player has really no correlation to what one can bench press. If a concrete basketball weighed 75 pounds most could move it easily because of the compact shape. Now trying to move a 75 pound 6x6 countertop poses a much bigger problem and it has nothing to do with how strong you are its that it's more ackward, both like Shaq and Wilt were.

My heaviest bench press when I was 27 (so 10 years ago) was 385 pounds for 2 reps. While I could say for my size that I was strong, I still got overmatched in the post by players weaker than me on the press. And much of that is simply you can't guard in basketball like pressing weight or focus all of the power needed to make that press at a given moment. Most people need to psyche themselves up big time for that sort of lift. Just having a strong base creates problems even when the person is lighter in weight.

Weightlifting certainly helps a players performance but it's hardly the reason to say someone is stronger then the other. Overall strength is more than weightlifting, especially the bench press.

A Sixer Wilt is a good match-up for Shaq. By the time he was in his early 70s Laker years, he was so heavy and strong I think Shaq would have his hands full completely. Watch the clips of the Knicks series if you don't believe me. Wilt stands out on the court like the Hulk from Avengers.

See to me the big difference here is in how the game is played. In Wilt's day, it was the traditional center game and I have spent a lot of time watching as much of Wilt as I can find. Clearly he was the one athlete who stood out the most but he played a good deal of time when the teams played so traditional. What I mean by this is Wilt would be the lone player under the rim for the board, the players almost always threw the ball into the post and Wilt never really seen a time where the offense or the ball wasn't going through him.

Now while you can say to me, well look what he did with it, I just want that to be known. Reg, posted an article where it specifically stated that the team wanted Wilt to score 50ppg and were doing all they could to help him get there. This was part of a post where he was saying how your supporting cast can make or break you. Even when he was not the focal point of the scoring load he was still receiving the ball and making the pass. My point, he always had opportunity to do something and he never had to deal with other players looking to do their own thing which didn't involve him.

Now defensively, Wilt was a good rebounder, defender and I will certainly not detract from his crazy leaping ability or knack for shot blocking. I will say though, he rarely faced anyone who really made him work offensively or even defensively. And by that I mean, true post play. You hear Shaq mention that a lot. Someone leaning on you all game, someone who makes you use energy simply by trying to get deep post position. KAJ was the closest I have seen to Wilt having to really work defensively (another player just as savy as himself) yet again, this was during a time where Wilt wasn't the focal point of the offense.

Shaq during the first 14 years or so was always the focal point the other teams tried to stop and if you watched him play, he played very physical. He'd lean on you from the start and was still a very intimidating force in the lane. maybe not like Wilt was, but then again, the efficiency of the league Shaq played in was better.

I am very confident, just by looking at video of both of them, Shaq not only played the game with more power he'd win the battle of basketball braun with Wilt at his LA heaviest. Shaq was just programmed to seek and destroy and we know Wilt was not. If Wilt, could bench more, great, but that wouldn't help him on the court. If Wilt was quicker, fine, but let's see how quick he'd be after dealing with Shaq leaning and going into him all game. We've just seen Shaq steamroll these more ackward larger players than Wilt, which leaves no doubt in my mind who would be the King of there two titans.

[ElGee]

Basketball isn't weightlifting and the weight distribution of a player has really no correlation to what one can bench press. If a concrete basketball weighed 75 pounds most could move it easily because of the compact shape. Now trying to move a 75 pound 6x6 countertop poses a much bigger problem and it has nothing to do with how strong you are its that it's more ackward, both like Shaq and Wilt were.

My heaviest bench press when I was 27 (so 10 years ago) was 385 pounds for 2 reps. While I could say for my size that I was strong, I still got overmatched in the post by players weaker than me on the press. And much of that is simply you can't guard in basketball like pressing weight or focus all of the power needed to make that press at a given moment. Most people need to psyche themselves up big time for that sort of lift. Just having a strong base creates problems even when the person is lighter in weight.

Weightlifting certainly helps a players performance but it's hardly the reason to say someone is stronger then the other. Overall strength is more than weightlifting, especially the bench press.

Such a great post I have to stop what I'm doing to add to it.

FUNCTIONAL strength is what MacGill is hinting at here. If the strength involved in basketball were restricted to lying down on a bench, or simply extending your arm at a fixed angle, weightlifting would be a good indicator of strength. In dynamic sports, like basketball, there are a myriad of other factors. Base is enormous. Core strength. You get to do this thing called generate SPEED (moving mass -- of which Shaq had more than basically anyone). Marius Pujo, the world's Strongest Man many times over (and they do full-body, functional events), can be taken down by significantly "weaker" men in wrestling because of this functional strength ("technique").

Arnold talks about how Wilt used to do triceps extensions with 175 lbs...much more than most enormous guys or lifters in his gym. But Josh Barnett would still snap his arm in half, just like everyone else. It's the interactive use of all the muscles, especially the hips/core, along with explosion/speed (related to strength) that create functional strength in basketball. For those of use with the fortune to have played with amazing athletes, you know this feeling when they bounce/off through you when the come down the lane, despite your apparent weight and strength advantages. When Shaq entered the league, he hit some player (on the Nets?) exploding up to the hoop with his arm and gave him a bunch of stitches, to which said player reacted by saying "Shaq is so strong he shouldn't be allowed in the league." Who knows what his bench is and who cares? (Let's not even mention bench is determined by range of motion, or how far the weight is moved on different frames, or that it can be affected by like 15-20% in a day just with technique adjustment.)

Wilt Chamberlain was CRAZY strong. So was Shaq. Discussing this probably has nothing to do with who was better at basketball.

[Dipper 13]

On the flip side, Wilt wouldn't be getting the post position he'd need for that finger roll against Shaq.

So you believe Wilt would be unable to post him up at a distance of 8 feet? Let us not liken him to Gasol.

Overall strength is more than weightlifting, especially the bench press.

According to esteemed author Gary M. Pomerantz, Wilt could deadlft 625 lbs. While I agree Shaq had a stronger base mainly due to his lower body mass, Wilt had a good base as well. All these posters with the idea that Shaq would push him around like a teddy bear are foolishly mistaken. Of course I have seen some of them with the belief that Wilt would be unable to post up anyone in this era.

[Dipper 13]

Nate Thurmond

Below we can see him dispose of Thurmond like a rag doll.

22:52 mark

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq87va



Though I agree Shaq has a stronger base mainly due to his lower body mass. Wilt had a good base as well despite his thinner calves & legs, there is nobody who can physically force him off the block. Even Wayne Embry could not do it, with the refs seldom whistling fouls. I have seen a clip of Bob Ferry bodying up Wilt in the post, using his knee as leverage both arms out ready to deflect a poor pass. Below we can see Embry using two hands in the pivot defensively. Today this is whistled a foul 100% of the time.



Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA - Terry Pluto

[MacGill]

Dipper13, I believe the part of the video you are referring to is called over the back or pretty close to it. Not really a shocking ending considering the position of both players. Shaq did this 100 times over over his career to players.

Edit: Let's get back to peak's here. I have no doubt Wilt was extremely strong and by me responding I don't want other's to take it as I am trying to knock him, which I am not but obviously am taking Shaq's position in this debate.

To put it in better perspective, both Wilt & Shaq could post down Ronnie Coleman who could outlift both players in every category. Hoping that takes the weightlifting aspect out of this because we aren't going to make headway with this.

[tsherkin]

So you believe Wilt would be unable to post him up at a distance of 8 feet? Let us not liken him to Gasol.

I should have said "consistently," because post position is often more about timing and off-ball movement than strength but yeah, I can see Shaq doing a better job of denying Wilt his favorite spots. 8 feet, mmmm, he'd still get that but Wilt made use of the f-roll from MUCH closer than that, usually, and those are the shots I don't think he'd be getting so often. Plus, Shaq's combination of power, reach and speed would have made him uniquely suited to guarding Wilt, more so than anyone else he faced.
I'm not saying he'd shut down Chamberlain, but that'd be his toughest matchup, for sure. Shaq definitely has a physical advantage on Wilt in the post (at either end, when we're talking about their matchup).

Now, I think Wilt would remain better on the defensive glass and would likely continue to exert greater defensive impact than Diesel, so that's something else to think about, but in terms of the 1v1 post battle? Yeah, Shaq has the advantage there.

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[QuantMisleads]

Going to just post a few corrections.

one is that many people seem to think that LA Wilt was peak wilt in terms of weight/strength. This is not correct. Coming into the 1962-63 season Wilt came in at 320-325 lbs, but lost 15 lbs or so through training camp. he entered the 1963-1964 season at 315 lbs, and lost weight once the 64-65 season was in play because he had pancreatitis or some heart condition that doctors privately said he wouldn't live through past the year. This Wilt(1962-1964) would destroy Shaq, hands down. Look at the video of the 1964 finals and you can see how gigantic Wilt is, and in that video I think he's really somewhere between 280-290, not even has max.

Wilt was the one that had explosive strength/speed, in comparison to Shaq, not the other way around. Kids these days, not doing their homework, sheesh.

For whoever said we don't have evidence of Wilt's strength, there is plenty of evidence and I spoke to his workout buddy in the 90s, Fluke Fluker out in California, who said Wilt could lift 120 lbs dumbbells like they were telephone receivers (his words). Check the book Wilt: Larger than Life (2004) for more talk of this.

And McGee, if you want to talk about functional strength, nobody had more of this than Wilt. His entire body was made for athletics.

there is no evidence Wilt was great at bench, I myself wouldn't make that argument.

By all accounts, according to all the evidence we have from that time through interviews, Wilt was the strongest person alive.

Yes, Russell woudln't stand a chance against Shaq.

Wilt would be programmed to destroy Shaq, as he did to various others throughout points in his career, if they challenged him. Nobody ever challenged Wilt, and that is why (in addition to the fact that he was a softie (but very, very competitive)) he took things easy.

[MacGill]

Going to just post a few corrections.

one is that many people seem to think that LA Wilt was peak wilt in terms of weight/strength. This is not correct. Coming into the 1962-63 season Wilt came in at 320-325 lbs, but lost 15 lbs or so through training camp. he entered the 1963-1964 season at 315 lbs, and lost weight once the 64-65 season was in play because he had pancreatitis or some heart condition that doctors privately said he wouldn't live through past the year. This Wilt(1962-1964) would destroy Shaq, hands down. Look at the video of the 1964 finals and you can see how gigantic Wilt is, and in that video I think he's really somewhere between 280-290, not even has max.

Wilt was the one that had explosive strength/speed, in comparison to Shaq, not the other way around. Kids these days, not doing their homework, sheesh.

For whoever said we don't have evidence of Wilt's strength, there is plenty of evidence and I spoke to his workout buddy in the 90s, Fluke Fluker out in California, who said Wilt could lift 120 lbs dumbbells like they were telephone receivers (his words). Check the book Wilt: Larger than Life (2004) for more talk of this.

And McGee, if you want to talk about functional strength, nobody had more of this than Wilt. His entire body was made for athletics. there is no evidence Wilt was great at bench, I myself wouldn't make that argument.

By all accounts, according to all the evidence we have from that time through interviews, Wilt was the strongest person alive. Yes, Russell woudln't stand a chance against Shaq.

Wilt would be programmed to destroy Shaq, as he did to various others throughout points in his career, if they challenged him. Nobody ever challenged Wilt, and that is why (in addition to the fact that he was a softie (but very, very competitive)) he took things easy.

To quote a wise poster from earlier in this thread:

Get out of here with your baseless and worthless commentary.

[QuantMisleads]

The only one who posts worthless commentary, and with much bravado or gusto, is you.

[Z-boomCha]

I appreciated your posts MacGill.

You stayed mature and argued your points logically without resorting to the "he would destroy him and it isn't even close" type lines which always make me cringe.

The guys who view Wilt as god and think he was the strongest man to ever live and could out run Usain Bolt really aren't worth debating with.

BTW as someone who has researched Wilt heavily because he is one of the greats and was a generally interested person I can tell you Wilt was never heavier then 250-280 until the very (very) late 60's and early 70's.

By that point he probably approached 300 and I would say from 68 or 69-73 he probably was in the 290-310 range.
As with Wilt everything is exaggerated.

He was never that close to 300 before those years and as mentioned earlier many times Shaq had a far bigger base and legs so the idea that Wilt would be able to bully him is laughable at best.

We should all appreciate past legends but there is no reason to pretend that they cannot be surpassed.
Eventually an even better athlete then Shaq and Wilt will be born.

[tsherkin]

Quant, MacGill, don't talk to each other if you're going to throw those kinds of phrases around, alright? Don't you two make me start dropping warnings.

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[colts18]

Rule of thumb: If its about Wilt and its positive, its more likely than not exaggerated.

[NO-KG-AI]

Most people seem to not know the difference between weight room strength, and functional strength/leverage and how much size makes a difference in usage of that.

[PTB Fan]

Debatable, but peak Shaq.

[TheXFactor]

Wilt comfortably.

He was just as strong as Shaq, but he was just flat out more smoother/fluid than Shaq around the basket. He had an assortment of moves, from the turn around J, hook shot, finger roll shot he revolutionized, just a much better player fronting, fundamentals and footwork. Wilt hands were so huge, he could hold a basketball like an orange, which benefited him making difficult shots and helped in survey defenses to make pin point passes. I think he would of been exceptional in the triangle.

Shaq was more about brute strength and trying to jam the ball, he never evolved l ike the way I wanted him to around the basket, preferable 3 ft beyond the rim, which shows why his game regressed so badly when he got older. Shaq prime was when Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson etc... got to old or retired and alsohaving a prime kobe blowing up @ the nba scene distributing, playmaking, giving Shaq easy dunk helped him immensely.

[QuantMisleads]

I appreciated your posts MacGill.

You stayed mature and argued your points logically without resorting to the "he would destroy him and it isn't even close" type lines which always make me cringe.

There is a history with MacGill, which is why I approached him the way I did. He is completely worthless and biased towards Shaq in every thread, unjustifiably so I might add. He doesn't really have any arguments than to say Shaq elbowed people in the face and was hence superior. Plus, nobody said "it wouldn't be close". However, when it came to talking about their respective defenses and rebounding, Wilt was far superior to Shaq, and THAT isn't close.

The guys who view Wilt as god and think he was the strongest man to ever live and could out run Usain Bolt really aren't worth debating with.

Wilt was a fantastic runner, but he was not the fastest. You're the one who said he could outrun Usain bolt, not me or anyone else, don't put words in anyone's mouth, and especially not mine. However, he definitely could outjump Usain Bolt, if that counts for anything, rofl.

BTW as someone who has researched Wilt heavily because he is one of the greats and was a generally interested person I can tell you Wilt was never heavier then 250-280 until the very (very) late 60's and early 70's.

You apparently haven't done your research at all.

By that point he probably approached 300 and I would say from 68 or 69-73 he probably was in the 290-310 range.
As with Wilt everything is exaggerated.

Some people exaggerate things, but I do not exaggerate Wilt's accomplishments. It's just that everything Wilt did was hyperbole if you compare it to other people, and it's not my fault you don't want to believe it.

He was never that close to 300 before those years and as mentioned earlier many times Shaq had a far bigger base and legs so the idea that Wilt would be able to bully him is laughable at best.

There's a difference between BULLYING someone and beating someone. Wilt would BEAT Shaq in his 1962-1964 seasons, he wouldn't BULLY him because Wilt never bullied.

We should all appreciate past legends but there is no reason to pretend that they cannot be surpassed.
Eventually an even better athlete then Shaq and Wilt will be born.

many of us are realistic in understanding that Wilt was a once in a generation player. if you don't want to believe I honestly don't care, but don't come in here telling me I'm wrong or others are wrong when you have nothing to base your argument on, and let me emphasize NOTHING.

[tsherkin]

Quant, let me say it again:

Do not engage in conversations about other posters, only about content.

Next one's a warning for anyone in this thread.

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