Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks

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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#61 » by tsherkin » Sun Oct 7, 2012 1:32 am

QuantMisleads wrote:btw, let me just say that I find it very, very amusing that someone has the audacity to say Shaq was more consistent/better than Wilt was throughout his own career, where in reality Shaq was great for only a couple of years


If, by "a couple," you mean from 92-93 through 02-03, then yes, that's right. If you're trying to say anything else, you're totally off-base.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#62 » by colts18 » Sun Oct 7, 2012 2:27 am

Plea to the mods, can you please have a designated Shaq thread and a designed Kobe thread, maybe even combining the two. That way we can have normal Shaq and Kobe threads without the trolling fanboys polluting the thread with the same talking points. Its tiring to the point where I don't even click on Shaq threads anymore since i know how the conversation will go.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#63 » by QuantMisleads » Sun Oct 7, 2012 2:37 am

tsherkin wrote:
QuantMisleads wrote:btw, let me just say that I find it very, very amusing that someone has the audacity to say Shaq was more consistent/better than Wilt was throughout his own career, where in reality Shaq was great for only a couple of years


If, by "a couple," you mean from 92-93 through 02-03, then yes, that's right. If you're trying to say anything else, you're totally off-base.

Note I made the distinction between "great" and "very good". Shaq was very good between 92-99, close to great levels at times, but I would knock him for doing so poorly in the playoffs consistently every year except 1995.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#64 » by TheXFactor » Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:04 am

colts18 wrote:Plea to the mods, can you please have a designated Shaq thread and a designed Kobe thread, maybe even combining the two. That way we can have normal Shaq and Kobe threads without the trolling fanboys polluting the thread with the same talking points. Its tiring to the point where I don't even click on Shaq threads anymore since i know how the conversation will go.


Kind of a good idea. While I do love both Shaq and Kobe and like discussing their basketball careers with everyone, I have notice a plethora of threads pertaining to them. I don't mind disussing them, but there are so many other skilled NBA players in NBA history, that I would like to see more of. NBA has a huge reservoir of talent, I like to see more of a diverse and pervasive topics of discussion for others that aren't so interested in Kobe and Shaq talk all the time. Just a thought
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#65 » by tsherkin » Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:28 am

QuantMisleads wrote:Note I made the distinction between "great" and "very good". Shaq was very good between 92-99, close to great levels at times, but I would knock him for doing so poorly in the playoffs consistently every year except 1995.


I noted your distinction and still think your badly wrong in your evaluation of Shaq's impact on the game, even as early as his rookie season. Was every year his peak? No, obviously not. But even as a rookie, he was 23/14/2 player giving you 3.5 blocks and scoring at over 58% TS, while grabbing over 4 offensive boards per game (13.4% OREB). He was wicked that year. Had some noticeable turnover problems and everything, but he was also 20. And he was still great, not "very good." But that season, you can at least argue. By his second year, no, he was legitimately great and stayed that way until the 03-04 season.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#66 » by colts18 » Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:36 pm

Shaq stayed good longer than 03. In 04, he was the best player in the playoffs. In 05, he was #2 in MVP and led the Heat turnaround. He was still good in 06 as he was first team all-NBA. The Heat sucked without him (10-13), and he was pretty good all year except for the finals. But in the finals he still did get a lot of attention which opened it up for Wade. His decline phase really started in 07 when he wasn't the same player anymore.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#67 » by The Infamous1 » Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:38 pm

I trust shaq more in postseason
We can get paper longer than Pippens arms
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#68 » by The Infamous1 » Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:38 pm

colts18 wrote:Shaq stayed good longer than 03. In 04, he was the best player in the playoffs. In 05, he was #2 in MVP and led the Heat turnaround. He was still good in 06 as he was first team all-NBA. The Heat sucked without him (10-13), and he was pretty good all year except for the finals. But in the finals he still did get a lot of attention which opened it up for Wade. His decline phase really started in 07 when he wasn't the same player anymore.


Kevin Garnett was the best player in the 04' Playoffs
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#69 » by colts18 » Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:46 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:
colts18 wrote:Shaq stayed good longer than 03. In 04, he was the best player in the playoffs. In 05, he was #2 in MVP and led the Heat turnaround. He was still good in 06 as he was first team all-NBA. The Heat sucked without him (10-13), and he was pretty good all year except for the finals. But in the finals he still did get a lot of attention which opened it up for Wade. His decline phase really started in 07 when he wasn't the same player anymore.


Kevin Garnett was the best player in the 04' Playoffs

Shaq was better in the playoffs. Shaq averaged 22-13 on 59 FG%. He was better in the series where his team beat KG's. In the finals vs the greatest defense ever and one of the best post defenses ever, Shaq averaged 27-11 on .615 TS%.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#70 » by Z-boomCha » Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:49 pm

Shaq averaged 21 / 16 / 3apg / 3bpg on 57% shooting against KG.
KG averaged 24 / 14 / 4.5apg / 1bpg on 46% shooting against Shaq.

Shaq really dominated KG and Duncan in the 2004 playoffs.

I still rank KG #1 in 2004 though with Shaq a close 2nd based on that but its debatable.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#71 » by JordansBulls » Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:29 pm

I think this depends on if we are comparing to players in there own era or simply across era including pace for each era? If that is the case then PER would be a useful tool here. One thing I will say though is that despite how dominant Wilt was, his greatest attribute was scoring and he never was able to average 30 ppg in the finals for a series.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#72 » by tsherkin » Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:32 pm

JordansBulls wrote:I think this depends on if we are comparing to players in there own era or simply across era including pace for each era? If that is the case then PER would be a useful tool here.


Not really. The flaws PER has make it universally unsuitable for direct player comparison, that's the point.

One thing I will say though is that despite how dominant Wilt was, his greatest attribute was scoring and he never was able to average 30 ppg in the finals for a series.


That's incorrect; his greatest attributes were very clearly his rebounding and defense, far and above his scoring. Those, and his passing. I think that should be evident in his career narrative.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#73 » by The Main Event » Sun Oct 7, 2012 8:00 pm

TrueLAFan

Putting everyone on an equal playing field of 97 points and 44 rebounds a game, the three best years of Wilt and Shaq look like this:

Wilt:
1961--41.5 ppg, 18.0 rpg, 2.4 apg
1962--38.3 ppg, 18.2 rpg, 3.4 apg
1964--33.2 ppg, 16.1 rpg, 5.0 apg

Shaq:
2000--29.6 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 3.8 apg
2001--29.4 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.7 apg
2003--28.0 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 3.1 apg

For his first 7 years, Wilt would average about 34 and 17 or so. Competition? Here are the top one third Cs in each league...the players these guys would go against 25-30 times per year

Wilt (3 Cs on 7/8 remaining teams)
1961--Russell, Kerr, Embry
1962--Russell, Bellamy, Kerr
1964--Russell, Bellamy, Beaty/Embry/Kerr

Shaq (9 Cs on 28 remaining teams)
2000--Mutombo, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, Divac, Sabonis, Ratliff, Brown, D. Davis
2001--Mutombo, Wallace, Robinson, Camby, Ratliff, A. Davis, Brown, Divac, LaFrentz,
2003--Wallace, Yao, Magloire, Ilgauskas, Amare, Robinson, Thomas, Grant, Brown

So Wilt had better competition as well.

You can use rebound rate to get a more precise number. Wilt Chamberlain's rebound rate in 1962 was 20.53. Wilt, essentially, played every minute of every game--3882 out of 3990 minutes. It was not because Players "played more back then." In 1962, 19 players averaged over 35 minutes per game in a 9 team league In 2009, 51 players on 30 teams played over 35 mpg. It's not much of a difference. Wilt played more minutes than anyone for two reasons.

1) He was physically able to. Wilt was, possibly, the greatest athlete ever to play professional sports; at the very least, on the short list. He was a once in a century freak.
2) There was no reason for him not to. The vast majority of the time that players play fewer minutes has to do with foul issues. If you get early fouls, you sit. If you get 5 fouls late, you sit. Wilt Chamberlain was the most foul-free C of all time; his most overlooked and (one of his) most dominant statistics. In 1962, Wilt Chamberlain played 3882 minutes and committed 123 fouls...barely 1.5 fouls per game. It's a foul every 31.6 minutes. It's the lowest number of fouls per minute in a season in history.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#74 » by Woodsanity » Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:07 pm

QuantMisleads wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
QuantMisleads wrote:btw, let me just say that I find it very, very amusing that someone has the audacity to say Shaq was more consistent/better than Wilt was throughout his own career, where in reality Shaq was great for only a couple of years


If, by "a couple," you mean from 92-93 through 02-03, then yes, that's right. If you're trying to say anything else, you're totally off-base.

Note I made the distinction between "great" and "very good". Shaq was very good between 92-99, close to great levels at times, but I would knock him for doing so poorly in the playoffs consistently every year except 1995.

Shaq a poor playoff performer? How biased can you get? He was a way better playoff performer than Wilt. :lol:
You can't criticize someone who had a poor supporting cast. There were times when Wilt had a better supporting cast than Russell and still failed. Lol Shaq only very good from 92-99. :lol:
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#75 » by QuantMisleads » Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:35 pm

Woodsanity wrote:Shaq a poor playoff performer? How biased can you get? He was a way better playoff performer than Wilt. :lol:
You can't criticize someone who had a poor supporting cast. There were times when Wilt had a better supporting cast than Russell and still failed. Lol Shaq only very good from 92-99. :lol:

Well let's see.
1994: Swept
1995: Swept
1996: Swept
1997: Barely won 1 game vs. the Jazz, lost 4-1
1998: Swept
1999: Swept

This IS THE SAME SHAQUILLE O NEAL WHO YOU CLAIM OUTPERFORMS WILT IN THE PLAYOFFS? ROFL!!!

Wilt in the Playoffs:
1960: Lost Game 6 by 2 points vs. the Celtics, a series in which he was fouled/flagrantly fouled without getting any calls against the Celtics, because the refs thought it made it "fair". Also had his shooting hand in games 4-5 injured, which saw a drop in his ppg.
1962: Lost Game 7 on a last second shot by Sam or KC Jones, and had what many called a bad goaltending call against him with a little more than a minute remaining in the game.
1964: Made it to the finals, lost against a clearly better Celtics team.
1965: Even though he was physically handicapped this year due to a heart condition, he recovers by the playoffs and loses in Game 7 on a steal from Havlicek.
1966: Loses 4-1 with HCA against the Celtics. However, the Celtics had fought them to a standstill that year in the regular season, and the 76ers were only ahead by 1 game to have HCA. Not as disappointing as it would appear.
1968: Loses in game 7 because his teammates were lousy, and for some peculiar reason they stopped sending the ball to him.

and I'll stop there. Based on this and comparing him to Shaq, it's laughable that you or anyone else would even debate this point. Shaq also won in 2000 because Portland choked, not because of anything shaq himself did. BTW, Wilt was never swept. Shaq was swept again in 2007.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#76 » by QuantMisleads » Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:43 pm

Apparently the epitome of a playoff choker is someone who lost a lot of game 7's by 2 to 4 points, rather than someone who was routinely swept except when he had a great team. GO FIGURE.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#77 » by colts18 » Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:51 pm

No, the epitome of a player loser is someone who consistently loses with the better team on his side and has his performance drop off quite a bit in the playoffs.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#78 » by MacGill » Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:52 pm

QuantMisleads wrote: Wilt was never swept. Shaq was swept again in 2007.


Hmmmm, by that logic even with all the sweeping, Shaq won 4 titles and Wilt 2? Sounds silly, doesn't it?

It's called team performance but you can measure the individuals performance/impact within that team.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#79 » by QuantMisleads » Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:54 pm

colts18 wrote:No, the epitome of a player loser is someone who consistently loses with the better team on his side and has his performance drop off quite a bit in the playoffs.

Oh really? So from 1959-1965 you would argue Wilt had the better team? Well that goes against what every analyst/newspaper and even people today argue. Good job being the lone voice on something so simplistic as this.

as far as his performance dropping, this is overblown and not understood. For one, defenses tightened up around his one man show, which dropped his ppg numbers. In addition, many players have their minutes increase in the playoffs, which is why their numbers also go up. Wilt was already playing 48 mpg. Plus, actually most of his playoff averages are effected by his numbers from 1967-1973, where he played many more playoff games than he did in 1959-1966.

The only people who continually bring up these two points are intellectual frauds.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#80 » by QuantMisleads » Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:57 pm

MacGill wrote:
QuantMisleads wrote: Wilt was never swept. Shaq was swept again in 2007.


Hmmmm, by that logic even with all the sweeping, Shaq won 4 titles and Wilt 2? Sounds silly, doesn't it?

It's called team performance but you can measure the individuals performance/impact within that team.


Good job contradicting yourself from one sentence to the next.

Anyone who argues that Wilt wasn't the reason they got to all those game 7's are simply liars or idiots. Just because his scoring went down in the playoffs (due to reasons I mentioned above) doesn't mean he wasn't contributing in other ways (tough defense, rebounding, assists, etc)

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