Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks

[MacGill]

First, I'm talking about after Shaq left the Lakers. Second, you can believe who you want. Everything is opinion on here. That's why you shouldn't be sensitive. Nobody is talking fact in comparisons. Nobody. I respect some of these stat-geeks in Realgm, but they don't speak fact either. I like Shaq's take-no-prisoners style. If they can't stop it, keep doing it. But after he went to Miami, he was not as dominant, and part of that was his not keeping control of his weight during the off-season.

Can I just ask two questions?

1) Do you know what year Shaq was entering in his career when he joined Miami?

2) What is your tenure expectation for professional athlethes to remain in their prime/peak?

[Shot Clock]

Well, since players were allowed to undercut opponents without a foul being called, I'd assume that the rules were a little more favorable! Since Wilt never fouled out of a game, I'd say the rules were a little more favorable. And since about 95% of the "offensive fouls" you whine about were because the refs fall for flopping, I'd say it would not be an issue!

I blame MacGill for tempting me into looking at this thread.

Now keep in mind I rank Shaq above Wilt. But the biggest problem I have with Shaq's impact is the following (I'm sure you will deny this to your grave)

Shaq came into the league when the league was struggling to find it's next group of superstars. You had a series of weak drafts with no true superstar talent. Where was the next crop to replace MJ, Hakeem, Barkley etc. The league had transitioned from a Lakers vs Celtics marketing theme during the 80's to a Magic vs MJ theme in the 90's. They were selling stars and had very little star power in the stable.

So they started letting Shaq get away with things that were always offensive fouls. He was given a get of of jail card to physically overpower his defender. This started the first wave of floppers who had nothing left to combat this style. Stand your ground and get run over for a dunk or flop and pray for a call.

I still think Shaq could have been an even better player if the league made him work for it. As a side note Wilt played more of a finesse offensive game.

[Brenice]

I know all that. But his ascension was dramatic. When he went to Miami, he still should have been Batman. He could have played Robin to Kobe if they would have gotten along.

[MacGill]

I know all that. But his ascension was dramatic. When he went to Miami, he still should have been Batman. He could have played Robin to Kobe if they would have gotten along.

Well that's kind of how it works when you are the size of a compact sports car . For comparison, I believe Wilt only played 13 years pro, Russell around the same and more modern off the top of my head KAJ/Hakeem are the only other 2 players at center to play as long as be as productive (someone correct me if my dates are off).

Shaq was still a very productive player in 05 & 06 but time, injuries certainly caught up and played a role. And let's not get into the whole LA topic because what is done is done but that has nothing to do with the points you are trying to make.

Most nba players careers come to end well before they'd even venture into Miami Shaq tenure in the league. That's pretty impressive to me.

[Raaccoonn]

I think its a fair argument to say that Shaq might have prolonged his dominance from the early 00's had he continued dedicating himself to fitness the way he did in 1998-2000 where he was really shredded physically and in amazing shape.

However Shaq still ended his career with a good 10-12 Super-Star level seasons.
Only Jordan, Kareem, Magic and Russell have a similar amount career wise.

In terms of All-Star level seasons or complete longevity Shaq is still up there with the very best.
Don't forget he started playing in 92/93.

O'neal was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995 and 2nd in MVP voting in 2005.
That is excellent longevity.

Also while Miami Shaq was not the same player he was in LAL (not after the 05 injury anyway) he was still one of the most impactful/valuable players in the league by my estimation in both years.

Still I think his playoff career value was arguably on par with even Jordan.

[MacGill]

I blame MacGill for tempting me into looking at this thread.

Welcome to the party

Shaq came into the league when the league was struggling to find it's next group of superstars. You had a series of weak drafts with no true superstar talent. Where was the next crop to replace MJ, Hakeem, Barkley etc. The league had transitioned from a Lakers vs Celtics marketing theme during the 80's to a Magic vs MJ theme in the 90's. They were selling stars and had very little star power in the stable.

Ok, so I think in hindsight we can state this but I don't put too much stock into this reasoning for the following reasons:

1) MJ was at his peak and many other stars were still ready to go at it. Malone, D-Rob, Ewing, Zo, Deke, Drexler, Lattener (I kid I kid) but you get the point. Hakeem was still strong, Bark's certainly can't say that was the lowest point we have seen.

So they started letting Shaq get away with things that were always offensive fouls. He was given a get of of jail card to physically overpower his defender. This started the first wave of floppers who had nothing left to combat this style. Stand your ground and get run over for a dunk or flop and pray for a call.

So no disrespect Shotclock, but this is simply wrong but something I hear about Shaq all too often. So let's start with the misception of the refs letting Shaq get away with anything. There was no one like him, who played the power game like him and coming in as an agile 300 pound rookie who could run the fast break like a pg, the league was unsure of how to call him.

There is no way I will state that he didn't get away with calls, he did, but not because the refs needed to let him go to build up his brand. First year Shaq was already being compared iconically to MJ and the video is on youtube. He was an instant star and did not need the refs help for that. He was just that powerful and it was hard for the league to tell what was Shaq and what was the players flopping.

How can we penalize Shaq if that is how strong he is versus is he intentionally causing unwanted contact. Now go back to his rookie measurments, played power back to the basket game like no one before him and tell me.

The flip side to this is how hard other players were allowed to abuse Shaq. Have you ever seen the licks this man took? It wasn't all one sided here but questionable calls which all stars get regardless of what they were doing is part of the game and shouldn't be used to take away from the skill he had at scoring in the post.

I still think Shaq could have been an even better player if the league made him work for it. As a side note Wilt played more of a finesse offensive game.

Not sure what you mean by this?

[jaypo]

I'm not going to deny it because I think it is a enough of a ludicrous statement that I don't have to dignify it! You're saying Shaq "got away with things", and you mention Jordan, the king of the "superstar call". Ironic. If I'm not mistaken, Jordan still played in the league a bunch of seasons after Shaq was drafted. So that entire statement is pretty far fetched.

Next, Brenice, it's funny that you say that he wasn't as dominant after he went to Miami. Well, perspective- Wilt played 13 years TOTAL. Shaq went to Miami in his 13 the season! Was Wilt still the peak wilt in his 13th season? Nope. Of course he wasn't AS dominant as he was at his best. Yet, he was still 2nd in MVP voting that year (and was robbed of the award). And you're blaming it on him not keeping his weight under control that year? Now, I clearly know that you don't know what you're talking about. It is WELL documented that he was at his lightest since his Orlando years when he arrived in Miami. It was well documented that he met with Riley who urged him to lose weight and work on conditioning, and he did so. He reported to Miami around 320lbs. So you're 100% wrong!

FYI, after MJ went to the Wizards, he wasn't as dominant either!

[Brenice]

I must be wrong Jaypo in stating that Shaq was in the best shape some seasons. He put in all the necessary work and never ballooned to a point where they lied about his weight.

[rrravenred]

Worth noting that the no-charge zone was introduced in 1997, which arguably benefits Shaq-type players more than any other...

[Brenice]

I must be wrong Jaypo in stating that Shaq was in the best shape some seasons. He put in all the necessary work and never ballooned to a point where they lied about his weight.

[Shot Clock]

So they started letting Shaq get away with things that were always offensive fouls. He was given a get of of jail card to physically overpower his defender. This started the first wave of floppers who had nothing left to combat this style. Stand your ground and get run over for a dunk or flop and pray for a call.

So no disrespect Shotclock, but this is simply wrong but something I hear about Shaq all too often. So let's start with the misception of the refs letting Shaq get away with anything. There was no one like him, who played the power game like him and coming in as an agile 300 pound rookie who could run the fast break like a pg, the league was unsure of how to call him.

A call is a call. You foul a guy it doesn't matter how big you are it's a foul. Shaq had all the moves. Shoulder into your chest to move you out of the way, elbows to the head while looking like he's just lifting the ball up, the elbow hook sweep to get around his man, the clearout with his left on his one handed jumpers, the steam roll right through you move. I'm sure I missed some, but the whole thing with him getting away with offensive fouls was quite well discussed back in the 90's.

There is no way I will state that he didn't get away with calls, he did, but not because the refs needed to let him go to build up his brand. First year Shaq was already being compared iconically to MJ and the video is on youtube. He was an instant star and did not need the refs help for that. He was just that powerful and it was hard for the league to tell what was Shaq and what was the players flopping.

This was pre-flopping, I'm talking about games before Vlade and the likes resorted to flopping. If they called Shaq for all his offensive fouls he'd have been in trouble a lot and the league doesn't like stars on the bench. They want them scoring points.

How can we penalize Shaq if that is how strong he is versus is he intentionally causing unwanted contact. Now go back to his rookie measurments, played power back to the basket game like no one before him and tell me.

Strength has nothing to do with fouling. Just because you are strong doesn't mean you don't have a normal gear. You know Shaq can safely handle a baby if he had to right?

The flip side to this is how hard other players were allowed to abuse Shaq. Have you ever seen the licks this man took? It wasn't all one sided here but questionable calls which all stars get regardless of what they were doing is part of the game and shouldn't be used to take away from the skill he had at scoring in the post.

A lot of that came later. It was trial and error with trying to shut him down. The refs let him move you out of position illegally so they started improvising.

Take a look at this game. It's the first one I found with Shaq as a the focus from his Orlando days but I'm sure I could find better if I took the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNwjAzJ7cY

6:10 - Doesn't matter how big you are this is a blatant foul and something you saw often from him.
1:03 Shoulder, elbow clear out
Those are just a couple.

[MacGill]

A call is a call. You foul a guy it doesn't matter how big you are it's a foul. Shaq had all the moves. Shoulder into your chest to move you out of the way, elbows to the head while looking like he's just lifting the ball up, the elbow hook sweep to get around his man, the clearout with his left on his one handed jumpers, the steam roll right through you move. I'm sure I missed some, but the whole thing with him getting away with offensive fouls was quite well discussed back in the 90's.

OK, but now you are changing what you originally stated. You said that the refs let him get away with it, which is different to this post. I think the opposing player reaction is why people react to this so much but you see it and have seen it per position throughout the history of the league. If anything, at least you knew players didn't pretend to flop .

So yes, true, a call is a call but does the nba define what the rule is per player given all are different? No, one rule under human interpretation. If a player could easily absord the contact in the post would the same call be made? It hardly does. Do you think KG & Bynum are evaluated the same in the post? Big bodies with large mass make a bigger splash.

Why this becomes a negative for Shaq, I do not understand? Shaq pushed this to the extreme but he also got called for many offensive fouls which were not as a result of this. To the point where he could barely make any contact or get position without the ref's blowing the whistle. I am not going to penalize him for something the league had to call. And let's be honest, depending on what side of the fence you are on with Shaq, is the one you will remember.

This was pre-flopping, I'm talking about games before Vlade and the likes resorted to flopping. If they called Shaq for all his offensive fouls he'd have been in trouble a lot and the league doesn't like stars on the bench. They want them scoring points.

Don't agree with this. Did you see how many fouls he picked up over his career?

Strength has nothing to do with fouling. Just because you are strong doesn't mean you don't have a normal gear. You know Shaq can safely handle a baby if he had to right?

True but mass combined with strength certainly does and especially when for most of the times you look like a man among boys. So if you played against someone 60-70 pounds lighter, weaker base etc, you'd turn down your game?

And Mike Tyson could shake your hand nice but was he expected to tone down his left?

A lot of that came later. It was trial and error with trying to shut him down. The refs let him move you out of position illegally so they started improvising.

Take a look at this game. It's the first one I found with Shaq as a the focus from his Orlando days but I'm sure I could find better if I took the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNwjAzJ7cY

6:10 - Doesn't matter how big you are this is a blatant foul and something you saw often from him.
1:03 Shoulder, elbow clear out
Those are just a couple.

Well picking a game versus Lattner is always a great starting block

Look, I have already said that yes it happened but to act like this was the sole reason for Shaq's post success is ridiculous. I've played a lot of ball versus guys taller and with more mass than me so unless there becomes a post force generator physics is physics. And as it turned out to be a professional league had problems identifying too much or too little with him.

I am still trying to understand the point you are looking to make? Is it Wilt wouldn't be Wilt, MJ, MJ, Shaq, Shaq, Kobe, Kobe etc all without the aid of superstar calls? And these so-called calls make these superstars who they became?

[jaypo]

Okay, Shot Clock. I'll use your logic. A foul is a foul no matter the size, stature, or "star power" of the player. Okay. Then here we go. If KG is posting up, and his defende, say Greg Postertag, slaps his arms as hard as he could, chances are, KG's arms would either break or he would be knocked down. When Postertag (I know I'm spelling it wrong) slaps Shaq's arms with the same force, they don't move. By using your logic, it should be a foul either way, right? Hey, you've already made it crystal clear that a foul is a foul. Howeve, why is it that for the majority of his career, Shaq rarely got to the line for those kinds of plays? You whine about him getting away with so much in the post. But you conveniently forget all of the fouls that weren't called in his favor that should have been called. You point to him "lowering his shoulder", but you don't point to the defender using his knee to undercut him, holding him with the arms, and pushing him out. You focus on what Shaq does after these things occur! If the game was called to the letter of the law, Shaq would never have made a field goal in his 19 year career. He would have been at the line evey damn time he touched the ball!

So complain all you want about his "offensive fouls". But don't forget all of the fouls that should have been called before he even had a chance to make those moves in the first place.

Let me also direct you to Mr. Reggie Miller. In the finals, knowing Shaq had 4 fouls, Reggie runs full speed into Shaq and falls. Shaq's back was to Miller, yet, Shaq somehow gets called for a foul. Now, you wanna talk about unfair advantage that Shaq had? What about the fact that every time a player ran into him, he got called for a foul? Why don't you mention those things? And to top it off, did you ever happen to watch MJ play? Do you remember his signature "back to the defender lean back to create space" move? Why do you think it should have been a foul for Shaq to do it if it was okay for MJ to do it? Is it because the defender bounced off of Shaq but not MJ? I thought a foul was a foul either way?? Answer that for me.

[Gregoire]

Rewatching some games from 2000 Shaq comparing to 67 Wilt I can say:
offensively Shaq far more dominant like a scorer and anchor, as a passer Wilt was better - its like
scoring
Shaq - 9,5
Wilt-7
passing
Wilt-7
Shaq-6
but defensively Wilt was better,espesially as anchor and shot-blocker, and he was better in PnR defense (he was bad,but not like Shaq).

[nolunch]

Regardless stone age's stats, Shaq is all the way. Strong move and power dunk. The most dominant and explosive force in NBA history. With a NBA record of longevity, 20+ & 10+ in 13 consecutive years.