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RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat 11/17)

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Post#21 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 Discussion Thread
Fri Nov 9, 2012 1:37 am by therealbig3

Thanks guys, but I can't really complain, I was pretty lucky. My house didn't get damaged, and I never lost my water or gas. I lost power for 9 days, which made things pretty tough (and cold!), but compared to what others have lost, that was just an inconvenience that wasn't really a big deal when you think about it.
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Post#22 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 Discussion Thread
Fri Nov 9, 2012 2:22 pm by SideshowBob

Good to know everything's been fine for the most part then. I live on the East Coast as well, but the DC Metro area JUST missed out on the worst of the storm.
Marty Hart wrote:Every time I think you hit a ceiling, you just keep raising the bar. You are like the Michael Jordan of being a son of a bitch.
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Post#23 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 Discussion Thread
Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:30 pm by PTB Fan

Vote: '84 Bernard King
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Post#24 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 Discussion Thread
Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:14 am by ardee

Just a quick thing I'm throwing out there: no Willis talk at all? I don't know too much about his '70 season (if I made a POY ballot for that year West and Kareem would be a clear 1-2), but an MVP-Finals MVP season not even in the top 40?

If we're going till 40, I'm probably going to vote King, Pettit, Willis, Gilmore and maybe KJ or Hill in some order.
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#25 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:37 pm by Doctor MJ

Okay so after taking a week break without any deadlines, I'm now planning to go roughly with week-long threads.

So voting here ends next Saturday. This will have meant about 2 weeks for the #36 spot which simply had better be enough.
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Post#26 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:51 pm by Doctor MJ

I'm leaning KJ right now. I think the Zo & King candidacies are strong though.

Re: Reed. Well, I don't want to be down on him simply because we just voted in his teammate since I think the debate between the two of them is a good one to have, but I ended up pro-Frazier pretty decisively. Suffice to say that if you start from looking at him as an MVP, he might be the most overrated MVP in history in terms of his actual peak compared to his perceived peak. The '70 Knicks were really REALLY good, and Reed was a major part of that, but Reed on the Knicks to start with didn't result in clear transformation, and the narrative about Reed is driven by his supposed transformative influence.

Take that away and you've got a solid all around player, but not really top of the line in any facet. He's a big who scores 20 PPG on decent but elite shooting, he's a good passer but not an amazing one, he's a good rebounder but not astonishing, he's a good defender but in the end he's a big who can't impact defense on the scale you're hoping your big can do.

While that kind of jack-of-all-trades could still conceivably add up to an all-timer, none of us would be thinking that way without his MVP & Finals MVPs, and he really shouldn't have any of those.
In 2007
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In 2014
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I,for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
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Post#27 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:49 pm by sp6r=underrated

How do people feel about Hill's 97 campaign vs King's 84 season?
It was a fun seven years but I am retired. I enjoyed reading many of yours posts. Peace and love basketball.
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Post#28 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:36 am by JordansBulls

sp6r=underrated wrote:How do people feel about Hill's 97 campaign vs King's 84 season?

I think Hill was better in the season but I like how King played in the playoffs.
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Post#29 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:47 pm by ardee

sp6r=underrated wrote:How do people feel about Hill's 97 campaign vs King's 84 season?


It's an interesting debate to have.

I feel if you labeled King as x, then you took 1, 1-x gives you Hill.

It's a pretty strange analogy, I know, but it's basically that these are two very, very different players. Hill was one of the purest scorers we've ever seen. I think of him as a billionaire's Carmelo Anthony in his prime. As in, he brought Melo's sheer knack to put the ball in the basket, but minus his ball stopping flaws and inefficiency. King had a crazy jumper and was explosive as hell. He was also a decent rebounder, not great, but not bad either.

Hill is a bit of a jack-of-all-trades, to me. He had the LeBron/Magic/Bird gene to control the game with his passing even if he wasn't scoring. He was quicker and able to get to the rim in his younger days, but mostly he played a very cerebral game. His jump shot was an issue at times, but overall he ranged from solid to brilliant on nearly all aspects of the game.

Both were decent team defenders, by no means liabilities.

I think if I were starting a team, I would be inclined to pick Hill, because you can merely choose a greater variety of players around him. I.e. I believe Hill has almost Bird-like portability.

But who I think was a more effective player? Gotta go with King here. GOAT level Playoffs. Just unstoppable.
SSOL

G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#30 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:04 pm by ardee

What do people think about the defensive monsters like Rodman and Wallace? Did they make enough impact on the other side of the ball to merit some consideration?

Come on guys, Doc left the voting open until Saturday for a reason.
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G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#31 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:55 pm by C-izMe

I think Rodman would've had a chance in the top 50 but with 40 he has major issues. He literally refused to shoot at times (leading to blown possessions) and a lot of the times he over passed leading to a lot of turnovers. He also was Camby-like in that he gave up defensive position to get boards.


Wallace I personally saw his peak live (not on YouTube Pistons games). He was probably the worst offensive player I've seen get more than 30 minutes a game. Biedrins laughs at his offensive ability. He wasn't good at the rim, a the line, at passing, at shooting from anywhere, at making putbacks, and at times set sloppy screens. Defensively let's say he's a 7 out of 10. He loses 5 of the 7 on offense by itself. He really needs a strong offensive team around him to even be worth playing 36+ minutes a game. I couldn't see him getting top 50 (Rose is over him and Rose wasn't even in my mind yet).
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Post#32 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:58 am by therealbig3

So...what exactly is the argument against KJ here? Great offensive player who stepped it up in the playoffs. And especially since we're discussing other wings here, I don't see how defense could really tip the scales, because I don't think Hill or King are all that close offensively.
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Post#33 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:47 pm by colts18

What's KJ's peak season? I think its somewhere between 89-92. 91 might have been his best regular season but he laid an egg in the playoffs. 92 was a better playoff than 90 but 90 had double the playoff games and a better regular season. 95 also has a case because he went off in the playoffs.

In 1990, the Suns had a 7+ SRS, good enough for 1st place in the NBA. Their O rating was 3rd in the league (D was 6th). They beat Magic Johnson's Lakers in the playoffs in a huge upset.

Here is the 1990 playoff breakdown

1st round vs. Utah (stockton):
KJ only played 9 minutes in game 1 so I'll look at games 2-5 (Stockton went 16 and 17 in that game)
KJ: 25-10-3, .497 TS%, 104 O rating
Stockton: 15-15-4, .484 TS%, 115 O rating

2nd round vs. Lakers (magic):
KJ: 22-12-6 (3 stls), .562 TS%, 118 O rating
Magic: 30-12-6, .616 TS%, 127 O rating

WCF vs. Blazers (Porter):
KJ: 22-11-2, .608 TS%, 119 O rating
Porter: 19-8-2, .610 TS%, 130 O rating

So KJ held his own offensively against those guys but his defense left something to be desired.

His 95 regular season wasn't great, but he stepped it up in the playoffs averaging 25-9-4, .663 TS%, 130 O rating. He killed the Rockets. He had games of 46-10 (game 7), 43-9-6, 28-8-8, 29-12, 21-13-5
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Post#34 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:50 pm by Doctor MJ

Good question colts, I'll put my vote in but my mind is still open:

Vote: Kevin Johnson '90

I feel like '89 & '90 is basically a tossup, so I'm inclined to go with the slightly more seasoned year.

Regarding '95, the post-season numbers are huge, but this is a team that nearly won 60 games with KJ gone half the year, and then got upset in the playoffs focusing on his gifts. Not saying I blame him, but no, that's not a situation where I feel like ignoring time lost to injury.
In 2007
The rule is the rule. It's not a matter of fairness. It's a matter of correctness.

In 2014
People just misunderstand...You’ve got to use some common sense, too.

I,for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
Doctor MJ



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Post#35 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:01 pm by therealbig3

Doctor MJ, what about 92 KJ?

I really don't separate 89-92 KJ really, so I'd have no problem going with 90 KJ if you feel strongly that it's superior to 92. But my reasoning for 92 was pretty much why you picked 90 over 89: he was a more seasoned player that was putting up comparable numbers.
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Post#36 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:43 pm by Doctor MJ

Well, the Suns are best in '90 by regular season and go further in the playoffs than in '92. They also peak in offense in '89 & '90, and KJ's putting up bigger RS numbers in scoring & assisting (& advanced metrics) so it's hard to make the case that KJ in '92 is taking a clearly heavier load in the later year.
In 2007
The rule is the rule. It's not a matter of fairness. It's a matter of correctness.

In 2014
People just misunderstand...You’ve got to use some common sense, too.

I,for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
Doctor MJ



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Post#37 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:47 pm by therealbig3

Ok, fair enough, I'm still not sure which year to pick, but I have no problem with 90 KJ.

Editing my original vote.
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Post#38 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:17 pm by ardee

'92 Drexler: 1 (JordanBulls)
'00 Mourning: 2 (fatal9 and C-izMe) (he's gotten waived?! How?)
'84 Bernard: 3 (ardee, PTB Fan and Dr. Positvity)
'90 Johnson: 2 (Doctor MJ and therealbig3)

So King wins I think. Make the no. 37 thread Doc?
SSOL

G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#39 Re: RealGM Highest Peak #36 (Voting ends Sat
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:23 pm by Doctor MJ

Okay, Bernard King '84 wins. We move on. Hopefully next thread will be better.
In 2007
The rule is the rule. It's not a matter of fairness. It's a matter of correctness.

In 2014
People just misunderstand...You’ve got to use some common sense, too.

I,for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
Doctor MJ



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