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Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time list?
Posted: Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:31 pm
by JordansBulls
Who do you have higher on the all time list between Isiah Thomas and Dwyane Wade and why?
On the Realgm list Wade was 22nd and Isiah was 29th.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:36 pm
by GAME TIME
Wade
Wade would be Jordan's toughest competition in the 90s
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Fri Nov 9, 2012 11:07 pm
by Woodsanity
Wade much better peak and more impactful player.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:35 am
by Geaux_Hawks
GAME TIME wrote:Wade
Wade would be Jordan's toughest competition in the 90s
How so? He's really not that great of a shooter. There were better rim protectors and perimeter defenders in the 90s. Plus, teams could pack the paint and hand check. Defenders now a days have to work extra hard to stop opposing offenders. Wade would no doubt be a great player, but there won't be many Dallas Maverick teams to shred for 30+ points.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:37 am
by Kobe 62 Mavs 61
Wade.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:17 am
by Laimbeer
Accolades are similar, but Isiah had better handles, better shooter, better man defender. Also far superior in the intangibles department. Won two titles in a far more competitive era and never played with a guy as good as Shaq or LeBron.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:11 am
by Kobe 62 Mavs 61
Post padding. Check PMs
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:28 am
by Tim_Hardawayy
Geaux_Hawks wrote:GAME TIME wrote:Wade
Wade would be Jordan's toughest competition in the 90s
How so? He's really not that great of a shooter. There were better rim protectors and perimeter defenders in the 90s. Plus, teams could pack the paint and hand check. Defenders now a days have to work extra hard to stop opposing offenders. Wade would no doubt be a great player, but there won't be many Dallas Maverick teams to shred for 30+ points.
I mean, you say this like he didn't also shred teams like the Pistons and the Celtics in the playoffs (he did).
He also had a good series against the Pacers and Ron Artest, the year before the perimeter rule changes, which happened to be Wade's rookie season.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:30 pm
by AdamTheGreek
Damn is Isiah getting hosed in here. '80s Thomas is a guy you wanted to go to war for if he was your teammate. Was he a mean, racist, homophobic S.O.B.? Yeah, but that doesn't take away from his ability to lead in every facet of the game.
Wade is a superb 2-way SG but he never won a title without a sidekick (or 2). Isiah had good teammates, but Thomas would take the credit or blame for an outcome of a game when it came down to final minutes of contests.
I'm taking Isiah.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:54 pm
by Kobe 62 Mavs 61
I'm kinda shocked. Wade's prime was a player that could score better than Isiah (in basically every way, too), defend better than Isiah, rebound better than Isiah, move as well without the ball as Isiah, and pass/run an offense only slightly worse than Isiah. And objective measurements bear this out.
The only way I could conceive of a person taking Isiah (aside from homerism), would be is if they got wrapped around the axle concerning narratives. Which is...well, you can do whatever you want with a narrative. It's just a story. A subjective one, at that.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:56 pm
by Woodsanity
Laimbeer wrote:Accolades are similar, but Isiah had better handles, better shooter, better man defender. Also far superior in the intangibles department. Won two titles in a far more competitive era and never played with a guy as good as Shaq or LeBron.
Wade is a far better player than Isiah. Much better scorer, much better defender and the reason Isiah won was because the strength of the Pistons defense not because of how good Isiah was. People need to stop acting like Isiah was like MJ, Bird, and Magic. He was at least two tiers below them. There were many seasons where Isiah wasn't even the clear cut best player on his own team. His peak was also very short(shorter than Wades) and inferior in every way.
Good myths. Isiah had far more stacked teams than Wade with an old Shaq and poor roleplayers.
People need to take the nostalgia glasses off and look at the roster Isiah had when he was contending and compare it to the roster Wade had when he was contending. Also look at the fact that Wade was a much more impactful player on BOTH ends of the floor.
Btw Isiah was a terrible defender based on eye tests and stats and he had an elite defense to help him out. He was a net negative on defense. He was also a highly inefficient scorer. He was a poor FT shooter, took too many 3s when he was a horrible three point shooter, and just not efficient in general.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:08 pm
by therealbig3
Wade's career is comparable to Barkley's and Malone's, not Isiah. Wade is better than Isiah in pretty much every way.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:18 pm
by Geaux_Hawks
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Geaux_Hawks wrote:GAME TIME wrote:Wade
Wade would be Jordan's toughest competition in the 90s
How so? He's really not that great of a shooter. There were better rim protectors and perimeter defenders in the 90s. Plus, teams could pack the paint and hand check. Defenders now a days have to work extra hard to stop opposing offenders. Wade would no doubt be a great player, but there won't be many Dallas Maverick teams to shred for 30+ points.
I mean, you say this like he didn't also shred teams like the Pistons and the Celtics in the playoffs (he did).
He also had a good series against the Pacers and Ron Artest, the year before the perimeter rule changes, which happened to be Wade's rookie season.
Like I said, Wade would definitely still be a solid player, but consistently having to face tougher defenses would eventually get to him mentally. Not to mention being defended by better defenders and handchecked. He did pretty good for a rookie against the Pacers, but if it wasn't for those 2 games where he lived at the charity stripe, you would have thought he played like a rookie suppose to against such a defense. I think some forget Butler and Odom were good offensive players as well, that took defensive pressure off of Wade.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:00 am
by Chosen01
Geaux_Hawks wrote:Like I said, Wade would definitely still be a solid player, but consistently having to face tougher defenses would eventually get to him mentally. Not to mention being defended by better defenders and handchecked. He did pretty good for a rookie against the Pacers, but if it wasn't for those 2 games where he lived at the charity stripe, you would have thought he played like a rookie suppose to against such a defense. I think some forget Butler and Odom were good offensive players as well, that took defensive pressure off of Wade.
but consistently having to face tougher defenses would eventually get to him mentally.
And you know this how? Let's go by what we have and see that when healthy Wade has basically dismantled ELITE defenses his whole career outside of Chicago 2011. He did REALLY good for a rookie, 21pts 6apg on 47% shooting against a the a top 3 defensive team that was in the upper echelon of defenses for that DECADE ( a prime Ron Artest and Jermaine O'neal). If Wade could produce those numbers against one of the best defenses in the decade in his first season in a league that was still in the hand check era then that leads me to believe that even in his prime he'd still be a similar that he is today. And rightfully so, Wade is one of the best ball handlers at his position as well as one the strongest and athletic where he can still finish and maneuver his way through contact.
taking two games and saying "well if you take away these two games he has pedestrian numbers" is asinine, give credit where credit is due and stop hating. Which elite title contending team(which Heat weren't one at the time by the way) didn't have two other decent offensive options who could "take some pressure off of". Thats like saying well Magic/Bird had great offensive options as well that had pressure taken off them so let's discredit what they did.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:09 am
by GAME TIME
Geaux_Hawks wrote:consistently having to face tougher defenses would eventually get to him mentally. Not to mention being defended by better defenders and handchecked. He did pretty good for a rookie against the Pacers, but if it wasn't for those 2 games where he lived at the charity stripe, you would have thought he played like a rookie suppose to against such a defense. I think some forget Butler and Odom were good offensive players as well, that took defensive pressure off of Wade.
I don't recall many great wing defenders in the 90s as there are today. 90s was known for having centers, but didn't have that many great wing defenders like in todays era. Wade would had flourished in that era. People always mention hand checking
, like they still don't do handchecking in todays game. When was the last someone got called for a foul for handchecking. The 90s era called illegal defenses which made it easier for Jordan to score, without anyone able to play zone on Jordan's side, where he was able to have much more room to operate. I think Wade would be even better in the 90s without many great wing players and the rules they went by.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:37 pm
by East_Coast
Laimbeer wrote:Accolades are similar, but Isiah had better handles, better shooter, better man defender. Also far superior in the intangibles department. Won two titles in a far more competitive era and never played with a guy as good as Shaq or LeBron.
Note to all: Quote-only posts are in breach of the new post-padding rules. Use the "+1" button if you've got nothing to add, take the time to write out a full post if you do. - rrravenred
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:17 am
by JordansBulls
therealbig3 wrote:Wade's career is comparable to Barkley's and Malone's, not Isiah. Wade is better than Isiah in pretty much every way.
when you say better in every way are you talking as far as prime, peak and career or better rebounder, passer, scorer, etc?
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:28 am
by RayBan-Sematra
JordansBulls wrote:therealbig3 wrote:Wade's career is comparable to Barkley's and Malone's, not Isiah. Wade is better than Isiah in pretty much every way.
when you say better in every way are you talking as far as prime, peak and career or better rebounder, passer, scorer, etc?
Pretty sure he meant career..
At this point I have both ranked ahead of Wade but he isn't more then 5-10 spots behind them.
As far as Isiah VS Wade I have Wade ranked higher.
He was just the flat-out better player imo.
He could score on higher volume while remaining more efficient and consistent and he was a much better defensive player.
Similar talent in terms of play-making ability.
He is in the 20-25 range right now and with 2-3 more really good years he'll be firmly in my Top 20, maybe borderline Top 15.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:57 am
by prs
Isiah is a glorified Parker/Billups/KJ and tbh 2 of those players are arguably better. Prominent personality on a team much like the 00's Pistons where their honestly wasn't a clear cut best player.
Wade is clearly better and in my top30.
Re: Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time lis
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:58 am
by JordansBulls
prs wrote:Isiah is a glorified Parker/Billups/KJ and tbh 2 of those players are arguably better. Prominent personality on a team much like the 00's Pistons where their honestly wasn't a clear cut best player.
Wade is clearly better and in my top30.
How is Isiah a glorified Parker/Billups/KJ when he was contantly an allstar and performed big in the playoffs and took an organization that never won anything prior to him to multiple titles?