Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time list?

Chosen01 · Post #61 » by **Chosen01** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:06 pm

It's 7 games, who wouldn't give someone who's injured and hampered in 3 of them the benefit of the doubt. Because Wade 30, that means he'll just fall of a cliff? Please. Before the last 3 games Wade was averaging 20 5 and 5 on 55% shooting 60% TS taking 14 shots a game during that period while shooting at career highs from mid range, but for some reason people decide to erase that from memory and focus on the 3 games where he wasn't even close to prime form.

I love how Bosh is playing but realistically he isn't going to sustain the shooting, I don't get why people look at early starts and believe that's how they're going to continue. Other examples being Kevin Martin who has 70% TS, New York's bench at a staggering 3pt shooting %, Harden who has been cooling down but before people were proclaiming MVP and all this other nonsense. Players/teams get into hot starts and others don't scratch their surface until the season if halfway through. It's why any reasonable basketball mind waits before overreacting to 7-8 games.

By that logic We may as well say Wade isn't even a top 20 player at the moment, which of course is a ridiculous statement.

Brenice · Post #62 » by **Brenice** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Chosen01 wrote:It's 7 games, who wouldn't give someone who's injured and hampered in 3 of them the benefit of the doubt.

Because he is quite often injured. And injuries can erode your skill. Nobody said nothing about falling off a cliff. You can surmise that Wade can be the 2nd best Heat player when healthy, sure. But when and for how long can you count on him, compared to Bosh? Wade would not be the first player who plays wrecklessly and had multiple, injuries to start declining at 30. That's when Zeke started declining.

As for Bosh, don't discredit him. He was an Olympian and a multiple all-star before he went to Miami. He could always shoot. Bosh also fits better with LeBron than Wade does.

JordansBulls · Post #63 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:51 pm

Brenice wrote:
Chosen01 wrote:It's 7 games, who wouldn't give someone who's injured and hampered in 3 of them the benefit of the doubt.

Because he is quite often injured. And injuries can erode your skill. Nobody said nothing about falling off a cliff. You can surmise that Wade can be the 2nd best Heat player when healthy, sure. But when and for how long can you count on him, compared to Bosh? Wade would not be the first player who plays wrecklessly and had multiple, injuries to start declining at 30. That's when Zeke started declining.

As for Bosh, don't discredit him. He was an Olympian and a multiple all-star before he went to Miami. He could always shoot. Bosh also fits better with LeBron than Wade does.

What player isn't quite often injured? Nearly all superstars play with some type of injury during the season.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #64 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Despite being "injured" or whatever (is he injured?) Wade has had a number of fantastic games this season.

Yes he has also had a mediocre game or two and one or two real stinkers but c'mon now.

Why do people use the bad games to say "Wade is done Bosh is better now" and just ignore the great games he had where he looks like one of the Top 5 players in the league?

FlashKing · Post #65 » by **FlashKing** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:09 pm

When Wade is healthy, he can ball just as good as anyone in the league. Opening night, he had 29. He had a couple more good games until he came down with the flu. Since coming back he's been terrible. Now he has this ankle injury that he is recovering from. Bosh is a beast but when Wade is healthy, he is going away, the 2nd best player on the team.

JordansBulls · Post #66 » by **JordansBulls** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:20 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:Despite being "injured" or whatever (is he injured?) Wade has had a number of fantastic games this season.

Yes he has also had a mediocre game or two and one or two real stinkers but c'mon now.

Why do people use the bad games to say "Wade is done Bosh is better now" and just ignore the great games he had where he looks like one of the Top 5 players in the league?

Wade is one of those guys that you either love him or hate him. He either gets a lot of credit or wayyy too little credit. Fact is is that Wade all time is still top 6 in PER in the season all time and Top 10 in the playoffs in it. In this comparison though both players were able to do something that many others could not and that is give a franchise it's first title and that in itself separates the greats.

Brenice · Post #67 » by **Brenice** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:33 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
RayBan-Sematra wrote:Despite being "injured" or whatever (is he injured?) Wade has had a number of fantastic games this season.

Yes he has also had a mediocre game or two and one or two real stinkers but c'mon now.

Why do people use the bad games to say "Wade is done Bosh is better now" and just ignore the great games he had where he looks like one of the Top 5 players in the league?

Wade is one of those guys that you either love him or hate him. He either gets a lot of credit or wayyy too little credit. Fact is is that Wade all time is still top 6 in PER in the season all time and Top 10 in the playoffs in it. In this comparison though both players were able to do something that many others could not and that is give a franchise it's first title and that in itself separates the greats.

It's not that Wade is done, but he is in the point of his career where he trajects downward, especially as he has had some injuries. Whereas Bosh has been pretty much healthy and a game less reliant on athleticism. In this comparison, Wade has had great success 1 year with Shaq, then less success for whatever reason, without Shaq, then having his team, not him but his team, resurrected with LeBron and Bosh. Whereas, Zeke was in the ECF with the Celtics 1 year before overcoming them the next, then in the Finals 3 years, then losing in the ECF to the Bulls. That at least 5 straight years of competing and holding its own, at the high levels against 3 dynasties, all led by arguably, 3 top 5 GOAT candidates. Wade so far has competed with Dirk, Rose, Durant, and the Boston Big3 at the high levels, with none being on a dynasty(yet).

Zasterror · Post #68 » by **Zasterror** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:18 pm

Brenice wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
RayBan-Sematra wrote:Despite being "injured" or whatever (is he injured?) Wade has had a number of fantastic games this season.

Yes he has also had a mediocre game or two and one or two real stinkers but c'mon now.

Why do people use the bad games to say "Wade is done Bosh is better now" and just ignore the great games he had where he looks like one of the Top 5 players in the league?

Wade is one of those guys that you either love him or hate him. He either gets a lot of credit or wayyy too little credit. Fact is is that Wade all time is still top 6 in PER in the season all time and Top 10 in the playoffs in it. In this comparison though both players were able to do something that many others could not and that is give a franchise it's first title and that in itself separates the greats.

It's not that Wade is done, but he is in the point of his career where he trajects downward, especially as he has had some injuries. Whereas Bosh has been pretty much healthy and a game less reliant on athleticism. In this comparison, Wade has had great success 1 year with Shaq, then less success for whatever reason, without Shaq, then having his team, not him but his team, resurrected with LeBron and Bosh. Whereas, Zeke was in the ECF with the Celtics 1 year before overcoming them the next, then in the Finals 3 years, then losing in the ECF to the Bulls. That at least 5 straight years of competing and holding its own, at the high levels against 3 dynasties, all led by arguably, 3 top 5 GOAT candidates. Wade so far has competed with Dirk, Rose, Durant, and the Boston Big3 at the high levels, with none being on a dynasty(yet).

I can tell from here that you don't know Wade's career as much as you think.

Brenice · Post #69 » by **Brenice** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:42 pm

Then don't comment. Just move on.

JordansBulls · Post #70 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:15 am

Brenice wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
RayBan-Sematra wrote:Despite being "injured" or whatever (is he injured?) Wade has had a number of fantastic games this season.

Yes he has also had a mediocre game or two and one or two real stinkers but c'mon now.

Why do people use the bad games to say "Wade is done Bosh is better now" and just ignore the great games he had where he looks like one of the Top 5 players in the league?

Wade is one of those guys that you either love him or hate him. He either gets a lot of credit or wayyy too little credit. Fact is is that Wade all time is still top 6 in PER in the season all time and Top 10 in the playoffs in it. In this comparison though both players were able to do something that many others could not and that is give a franchise it's first title and that in itself separates the greats.

It's not that Wade is done, but he is in the point of his career where he trajects downward, especially as he has had some injuries. Whereas Bosh has been pretty much healthy and a game less reliant on athleticism. In this comparison, Wade has had great success 1 year with Shaq, then less success for whatever reason, without Shaq, then having his team, not him but his team, resurrected with LeBron and Bosh. Whereas, Zeke was in the ECF with the Celtics 1 year before overcoming them the next, then in the Finals 3 years, then losing in the ECF to the Bulls. That at least 5 straight years of competing and holding its own, at the high levels against 3 dynasties, all led by arguably, 3 top 5 GOAT candidates. Wade so far has competed with Dirk, Rose, Durant, and the Boston Big3 at the high levels, with none being on a dynasty(yet).

Good post for the most part. However I would say he had success 2 years with Shaq and in reality he probably would have won it all in 2005 had he not got hurt in the series vs Detroit.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #71 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:29 am

JordansBulls wrote:Good post for the most part. However I would say he had success 2 years with Shaq and in reality he probably would have won it all in 2005 had he not got hurt in the series vs Detroit.

Don't forget he also could have very easily won and gotten a FMVP in 2011 had Lebron not underperformed VS the Mavericks.

GAME TIME · Post #72 » by **GAME TIME** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:35 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Good post for the most part. However I would say he had success 2 years with Shaq and in reality he probably would have won it all in 2005 had he not got hurt in the series vs Detroit.

Don't forget he also could have very easily won and gotten a FMVP in 2011 had Lebron not underperformed VS the Mavericks.

Not necessarily

Isiah is tougher mentally and just as good a closer as Wade. Isiah made many clutch shots in his career. I give the edge to Isiah, because I still call him the 2nd greatest point guard in NBA history, even though his career ended earlier that it should had. Wade just wasn't on the same level of a Isiah Thomas thoughout his career. He could pass him, but Wade is already declining only after 20k minutes

Brenice · Post #73 » by **Brenice** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:20 pm

JordansBulls wrote: Good post for the most part. However I would say he had success 2 years with Shaq and in reality he probably would have won it all in 2005 had he not got hurt in the series vs Detroit.

However, if we doing this, we must also understand that in 88, the Pistons were up 3-2 before Zeke sprained that ankle in game 6. If he had not sprained his ankle, the Pistons probably would have won with Zeke being FMVP.

JordansBulls · Post #74 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:03 pm

Brenice wrote:
JordansBulls wrote: Good post for the most part. However I would say he had success 2 years with Shaq and in reality he probably would have won it all in 2005 had he not got hurt in the series vs Detroit.

However, if we doing this, we must also understand that in 88, the Pistons were up 3-2 before Zeke sprained that ankle in game 6. If he had not sprained his ankle, the Pistons probably would have won with Zeke being FMVP.

They would have won had it not been for that BS foul call on Laimbeer in Game 6 as well with like 15 seconds left in it.

ultratropical24 · Post #75 » by **ultratropical24** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:10 pm

Wade is a better individual talent...easily.

Brenice · Post #76 » by **Brenice** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:20 pm

ultratropical24 wrote:Wade is a better individual talent...easily.

Well the comparison is of a 6ft PG vs a 6'4" SG so yes, in terms of physical ability, Wade has the advantage in a sport where height is a premium.

Brenice · Post #77 » by **Brenice** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:23 pm

JordansBulls wrote:They would have won had it not been for that BS foul call on Laimbeer in Game 6 as well with like 15 seconds left in it.

We are in total agreement.

Post #78 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:41 pm

Brenice wrote:Well the comparison is of a 6ft PG vs a 6'4" SG so yes, in terms of physical ability, Wade has the advantage in a sport where height is a premium.

Right, but it's also wingspan and power that favor Wade, not just a difference in height. Isiah was a talented guy, of course, and he also balanced his weaker scoring with superior playmaking beyond just the PnR and transition stuff that forms the basis of Wade's playmaking. Physical tools definitively favor Wade across several criteria, though, not just height.

JordansBulls · Post #79 » by **JordansBulls** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:17 pm

ultratropical24 wrote:Wade is a better individual talent...easily.

What does that have to do with who is higher all time on the list? Tmac is a better individual talent than Bird too, doesn't mean he is a better player or higher all time.

Gideon · Post #80 » by **Gideon** » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:31 am

The unfortunate thing for Isiah and his legacy is that he peaked in the early-mid 80s, but his team peaked in the late 80s. This leads to questions about how big Isiah's impact really was when he was putting up superstar numbers. There's even a solid argument that Isiah was only the second-best player on the championship Pistons teams (behind Dumars), and he had certainly faded a bit by then, even though he was still very valuable.

Wade won one title during his peak and was the #1 guy on his team (although Shaq was close behind in terms of impact), and won one title shortly after his peak (when he was a full tier below his team's top player, LeBron). Isiah won both of his titles a few years after his peak. If Isiah had won a title while averaging his peak numbers (21.2-4.5-13.9-2.3) and being the clear #1 guy on the Pistons, I think most people would rank him ahead of Wade. As it stands, the two seem very, very close... I still picked Isiah, but I'm on the fence, and wobbling a little even as I write this.