Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time list?

[jman2585]

Ah, a conspiracy theory buff. Tell me, why was there a huge media bias against him. This ought to be good.

[sheba021]

No conspiracy theory, just common knowledge. Why? The 1985 All-Star freeze-out of Michael Jordan, comments about Larry Bird and the fact he was the leader of the black sheep of the NBA, who many have thought was ruining basketball. He was also a very dirty player who started as many, if not even more brawls than Bill Laimbeer. To believe he was as beloved as any other superstar outside of Detroit is pure delusion.

[Mutnt]

Why is this even relevant, it's not like Wade is one of the more lovable players in the league... He has a history of dirty/unsportsmanlike plays that have made non-Heat & casual fans call for his head on numerous occasions. He's also quite notorious for talking trash, complaining and giving ugly stares to players and referees. Wade's not exactly the angel of the NBA

[Woodsanity]

Isiah was a guy who hovered around the 8th-17th best player in the NBA. He wasn't some secret MVP candidate.

There was a huge media bias against him, so the fact that he wasn't a favorite to win the borderline meaningless NBA congeniality award is not so surprising.

He wasn't the favorite cause he wasn't at any point a top 5 player in the nba. Thats all there is to it. In fact, he was often not even the best player on his own team.

[jagz]

Isiah had good teammates, but Thomas would take the credit or blame for an outcome of a game when it came down to final minutes of contests

.

A lot of times Zeke wasn't even in the game in the final minutes. Ok, "a lot", may be an exaggeration. But, the Pistons (along with, of course, the Bulls and also the Hawks) used to be on TNT/TBS 1 - 2 times per week back when the channels devoted four nights of the week to NBA games. And I can tell you, having watched, going into the 4th quarter, if Dumars and Vinnie were on, and Zeke wasn't, then Zeke was in warm-ups. That's just how Daley rolled.

So, it's inaccurate on simply that level to say Isiah won without sidekicks. He had a team full of them, such that sometimes it was the coach's decision that they close games without him.

And second, as far as a singular, designated sidekick, what the hell was Dumars? You know, the player that carried Thomas through his first Finals and named by the NBA (correctly or not) as one of the top 50.

Isiah made his reputation off some clutch playoff performances, initially scoring 16 pts in 2:00 against the Bullets (they weren't the Wizards yet) and later playing through injury in an ultimately losing effort in the 1988 Finals vs. the Lakers. But, I have scarcely seen a more erratic player since I began watching basketball. No one I can remember was more likely to drop 40 pts one night and 4 pts the next.

[jman2585]

The Freeze out was in 1985. In 1985 the media voted Isiah Thomas 9th in the MVP race, his equal 3rd highest showing (and the same as what he got the following year). Isiah wasn't alone on that Eastern all-star team, and there was no back lash to anyone else, it seems bizarre to claim it affected only him at any rate. His Larry Bird comments came in 1987 (after losing to Bird). This does not explain his earlier MVP vote records, which (with the exception of one crazy year in 1984 which I will address) he was ranked between 8th and 17th. 1984 was kind of a weak year, Jeff Ruland ranked 9th, and at this early point in Isiah's career he was putting up volume numbers, which gave the fools gold type effect of his value. After that voters took a closer look, and realised they'd overrated Isiah a little, and ranked him correctly (about 8-17). Who did Isiah beat in 1984 that we should be impressed by? Old man Erving? Moses who missed games with injury?

The Pistons were unpopular (though it really only reached extreme levels when their thuggery actually resulted in titles), but that didn't hold back the other Pistons. Rodman made 2 all-star games, won 2 DPOY awards, 8 all-D teams, 2 all-nba teams, and got MVP votes 4 times (ranking 10th, 11th, 12th and 15th). Joe Dumars made 6 all-star teams, 5 all-D teams, 3 all-nba teams and got MVP votes 4 times (ranking as high as 10th). Laimbeer made 4 all-star games and was 12th in the MVP vote. It didn't seem to have held any of these guys back, and if anything Rodman and Laimbeer were more hated than Isiah was. The reason Isiah was not ranking higher than he was is because he was not a better player than the guys he was ranked behind. And that makes sense. The Pistons only became a contender once the team got stacked, and before that people looked at the (quite talented) Pistons teams he was leading to records of 39, 37, 49. 46 and 46 win seasons and said "eh". Which is exactly the way they should have reacted. There was no indication Isiah's impact was MVP great (nor did his stats indicate that), and the team only became a contender (or even a 50 win team) once it got stacked with other all-stars and great talent.

[Blkbrd671]

i hate these sort of comparison's on realgm as i think the majority of posters on Realgm are too young to even remember Thomas's game and use Youtube as there reference. I do think Isaiah Played in a tougher era of basketball or at least a more physical one. I do think Wade is a better all around scorer than Isaiah , however isaiah is definitely the more complete player. While both players had amazing supporting cast, Dwade has played with Shaq and Lebron(who arguably could be the most dominate 2 players in their respective eras),this has allowed wade to somewhat coast more than isaiah, who i recall running the team and could never really coast. i have Isaiah higher all time but its close enough that it literally can be either or.

[Mutnt]

i hate these sort of comparison's on realgm as i think the majority of posters on Realgm are too young to even remember Thomas's game and use Youtube as there reference. I do think Isaiah Played in a tougher era of basketball or at least a more physical one. I do think Wade is a better all around scorer than Isaiah , however isaiah is definitely the more complete player. While both players had amazing supporting cast, Dwade has played with Shaq and Lebron(who arguably could be the most dominate 2 players in their respective eras),this has allowed wade to somewhat coast more than isaiah, who i recall running the team and could never really coast. i have Isaiah higher all time but its close enough that it literally can be either or.

[Sedale Threatt]

He's a heck of alot closer to it than Isiah was, that's for sure.

Peak wise he probably is, career wise they are roughly equal. Which is why the thread was created to see how close they are careerwise.

I thought you were a big PER/win shares guy? Wade crushes him in both categories.

[Blkbrd671]

i hate these sort of comparison's on realgm as i think the majority of posters on Realgm are too young to even remember Thomas's game and use Youtube as there reference. I do think Isaiah Played in a tougher era of basketball or at least a more physical one. I do think Wade is a better all around scorer than Isaiah , however isaiah is definitely the more complete player. While both players had amazing supporting cast, Dwade has played with Shaq and Lebron(who arguably could be the most dominate 2 players in their respective eras),this has allowed wade to somewhat coast more than isaiah, who i recall running the team and could never really coast. i have Isaiah higher all time but its close enough that it literally can be either or.

wait what?

[rock digger]

Isiah =/= Isaiah

[jman2585]

however isaiah is definitely the more complete player

Vlade Divac probably had a more "complete" game than Shaq, but I know what one had more impact. These sorts of attempts to prop up an inferior player by referring to his "completeness" or his "wider array of skills" is as absurd as the attempt to measure impact on a "50% of the game is D, and 50% is O" analysis. You know who else was more "skilled" than Shaq? Early Boykins. That doesn't mean he had an impact anywhere near as close, which is the only thing we should care about.

Wade is on a totally different level to Isiah.

[Blkbrd671]

however isaiah is definitely the more complete player

Vlade Divac probably had a more "complete" game than Shaq, but I know what one had more impact. These sorts of attempts to prop up an inferior player by referring to his "completeness" or his "wider array of skills" is as absurd as the attempt to measure impact on a "50% of the game is D, and 50% is O" analysis. You know who else was more "skilled" than Shaq? Early Boykins. That doesn't mean he had an impact anywhere near as close, which is the only thing we should care about.

Wade is on a totally different level to Isiah.

Using shaq and divac/boykens in comparison sort of gives away your bias towards wade, Wade isn't even close to being the dominant force shaq was or has been as impactful. Which by your post it seems your implying. And if we are arguing impact soley, Wade has had long stretches where he has had little- 0 impact in games consecutively. so by your point we could argue a bunch of players>wade.

impact anywhere near as close, which is the only thing we should care about.

Actually we should care about a lot more than this, but i understand its an attempt to make a point

Wade is on a totally different level to Isiah.

Well RealGm(credible) has him 7 spots back, and between them too are some pretty reputable players. if that's a "totally different level" then Wade and everyone behind him are complete scrubs compared to top 15............... dude its close, and as i said before can be argued either way

[jman2585]

Well, I don't 100% agree with the realgm list, but even that doesn't mean too much. There can be a huge difference between 2 guys who are 1 spot apart, let alone 7, and since the list was done Wade has added more to his resume (more longevity, etc), so if the list were redone I don't doubt Wade would rank higher (while Isiah obviously can't add anything more).

It's about impact, not arbitrary titles like "most skilled" or "most complete" or "who could made the most trick shots while juggling hot dogs".

[Blkbrd671]

Well, I don't 100% agree with the realgm list, but even that doesn't mean too much. There can be a huge difference between 2 guys who are 1 spot apart, let alone 7, and since the list was done Wade has added more to his resume (more longevity, etc), so if the list were redone I don't doubt Wade would rank higher (while Isiah obviously can't add anything more).

It's about impact, not arbitrary titles like "most skilled" or "most complete" or "who could made the most trick shots while juggling hot dogs".

More longevity? i thought you said "non arbitrary titles". More impact? again he has had long stretches THIS YEAR where he's had 0 impact. Again you just picking and choosing what you want to argue with 0 substance. There can be a huge difference between 1 spot and or very little between 7 let a lone 10 spots. Honestly this debate is pointless as you clearly are of the opinion Dwade was/is so dominant , which is not factual.

[jman2585]

You just claimed Wade has had zero impact for long periods this year. That is so laughable as to not merit a reply.

[Blkbrd671]

You just claimed Wade has had zero impact for long periods this year.

oh i'm sorry i don't consider 6, 8, 14,15,11points etc as impactful. Since that's what you want to argue but now i know your just trying to look for points in the argument where you think you can win.

That is so laughable as to not merit a reply.

it may not merit a reply, but you did reply so apparently it does.



Done wasting my time with you bud, this is a clown debate

[JordansBulls]

What playoff season would you say both players played there best and which season there worst?