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Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?

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Post#21 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:34 pm by Shot Clock

I could understand giving him a pass but holding up that series of evidence of his defensive prowess....ah no
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Post#22 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:02 pm by kaima

JordansBulls wrote:
kaima wrote:Bird gets hammered for playoff failures with homecourt around here.

Interesting fact? Duncan has lost 8 times in 15 seasons in the playoffs with homecourt. Yet we hear that his teams always finish where they should.

Further, Duncan's a rather large question mark at the end of games due to his clockwork inability to nail a FT.

Just two points amongst others, that get swept under the rug when discussing Duncan.

I think the issues are debatable, Unfortunately, they never seem to be debated at all, or discussed.

Actually the records are as follows:

Duncan 23-6 in Series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA


Right. I probably had '8' on my mind in reference to the Memphis series.

The comparative point is somewhat devil's advocate to begin with, if not wholly -- team success versus alpha's ability rather than the two being confused and fused -- so, to me, the more interesting numbers would be individual: elimination series stats, matchup splits, elimination game stats, etc.

Duncan's 2004 series against LA, for instance, largely is connected with the team's loss: last four games he put up 17+ and shot in the 30s. On the other hand, he was outstanding in the Dallas series of 06 in elimination.

Unfortunately Bird's stats from a decent portion of his prime are not nearly as readily available on a per game or series basis.

Still, there are a number of series -- win or lose -- where I've seen Duncan bothered horribly by tough D (LA 2004, Detroit 2005, etc.), perhaps as much or more than I ever witnessed with Bird.
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Post#23 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:18 pm by JordansBulls

Blame Rasho wrote:
Wel lAmare is the stupid fans favorite player for the most part... so you can think whatever you want... It was a part of the Spurs plan.. have one player try and beat you... and did they... no. They laughably failed.

I understand that, but if you are an alltime great defender you don't allow someone to average 37 ppg on you for a series. Hell Hakeem didn't even do that to David Robinson.
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Post#24 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:29 pm by kaima

JordansBulls wrote:
Blame Rasho wrote:
Wel lAmare is the stupid fans favorite player for the most part... so you can think whatever you want... It was a part of the Spurs plan.. have one player try and beat you... and did they... no. They laughably failed.

I understand that, but if you are an alltime great defender you don't allow someone to average 37 ppg on you for a series. Hell Hakeem didn't even do that to David Robinson.


Let's be honest: SSOL drove those stats to large extent, with the Spurs playing to PHX's pace until they locked them down in the last few minutes. Like clockwork.

Duncan versus Bird is debatable, and Duncan's man D is overrated (that's not the same as his team D, of course), but looking for truth in stats involving D'AZntoni/Nash is about like believing the numbers in a California budget.
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Post#25 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:50 pm by Clyde Frazier

Kobe Bean wrote:Duncan

I'd pick the entire top 10 GOAT list, as well as LeBron and KG over Larry


Anyone who has bird outside the top 5 all time is just hilariously biased.
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Post#26 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:17 am by therealbig3

Clyde Frazier wrote:
Kobe Bean wrote:Duncan

I'd pick the entire top 10 GOAT list, as well as LeBron and KG over Larry


Anyone who has bird outside the top 5 all time is just hilariously biased.


Not necessarily, I have him at 6th, with Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Magic ahead of him, and I can see good arguments for Duncan and Hakeem as well. Some people would argue Wilt as well, even if I personally wouldn't.

You can rank all of those guys ahead of him without being biased.
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Post#27 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:15 pm by JordansBulls

Clyde Frazier wrote:
Kobe Bean wrote:Duncan

I'd pick the entire top 10 GOAT list, as well as LeBron and KG over Larry


Anyone who has bird outside the top 5 all time is just hilariously biased.

Care to explain why?

Do you not see a case for these guys over Bird?

MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and then you got Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kobe in the mix as well.
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Post#28 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:01 pm by mademan

therealbig3 wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
Kobe Bean wrote:Duncan

I'd pick the entire top 10 GOAT list, as well as LeBron and KG over Larry


Anyone who has bird outside the top 5 all time is just hilariously biased.


Not necessarily, I have him at 6th, with Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Magic ahead of him, and I can see good arguments for Duncan and Hakeem as well. Some people would argue Wilt as well, even if I personally wouldn't.

You can rank all of those guys ahead of him without being biased.


And that's career based. Once you start talking about prime impact players like Lebron and KG can be unbiasedly rated over Bird.
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Post#29 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:28 pm by The Infamous1

Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances
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Post#30 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:34 pm by rocopc

The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances


You just missleading this thread... that not true period.
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Post#31 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:41 pm by JordansBulls

The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

Peak wise you can say he is, career wise I do not see the case for him.
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Post#32 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:17 am by nolunch

JordansBulls wrote:
The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

Peak wise you can say he is, career wise I do not see the case for him.


For peak wise, below five are better.

Shaq
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Kobe
Wilt
Lebron
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Post#33 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:39 am by ardee

nolunch wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

Peak wise you can say he is, career wise I do not see the case for him.


For peak wise, below five are better.

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Wilt
Lebron


Umm not Kobe and LeBron :S '86 Bird was on another level.
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Post#34 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:37 am by JordansBulls

nolunch wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

Peak wise you can say he is, career wise I do not see the case for him.


For peak wise, below five are better.

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Wilt
Lebron


Kobe nor Lebron was in the top 5 on the realgm top 50 peaks.
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Post#35 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:13 pm by Johnny Firpo

nolunch wrote:For peak wise, below five are better.

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Wilt
Lebron


:lol:

Are you serious? Bird's, and the other 4 guys' peak destroys Bryant's. Kobe was never that good, was never that impactful. Anyway, i'd take Duncan. Too much 2-way domination.
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Post#36 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:53 pm by Spurtatcus

Larry was never at the level of Tim on defense and people act like Tim was Dwight Howard out there. Timmy could've averaged way more PPG but in the slow paced, halfcourt game the Spurs played, his 20ppg often account for 25% of the team's total scoring. Larry cannot dominate a game on both ends like Tim Duncan, not many players in NBA history can shut down an entire offense on one end of the court and dominate them in the post on the other end. This is in his very first playoff game:

http://www.myspace.com/video/gabriel/sp ... ffs/765672

This is a rookie taking Antonio McDyess to the woodshed. Too often I think Tim's offense gets overlooked in favor of his all around game and dominant defense but the fact of the matter is Timmy was an excellent scorer with more moves in the post than anyone in the league today. His FT% is usually around 70 as well so it's not like he's shooting 50% from the line in crunch time or anything. I've had the luxury of watching him for a long, long time, and you get spoiled with just how much he does on the court that you take for granted. The only players I'd take over Tim Duncan if I were starting an NBA franchise would be Michael Jordan and maybe Magic. No one else has the drive, competitiveness, selflessness, and consistency to match him. JMO
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Post#37 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:19 pm by JordansBulls

Spurtatcus wrote: The only players I'd take over Tim Duncan if I were starting an NBA franchise would be Michael Jordan and maybe Magic. No one else has the drive, competitiveness, selflessness, and consistency to match him. JMO

What do you feel about Russell or Kareem or even Hakeem on this to start a team?
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Post#38 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Tue Dec 4, 2012 2:39 am by Birdfor3

"The Unintelligent 1" clearly is asshurt about somethin. Did Larry have have sex with your mom or something?

Duncan's career numbers are PEDESTRIAN compared to ALOT of other guys. His %'s suck for a supposed "efficient" player...his scoring is subpar (and for a team full of roleplayers, he was NEVER, not ONCE, a "dominant" go-to-guy. In fact his scoring is scarily similiar to Garnett's. So cut the bullcrap about stats. ) He COULD "score more"....seriously? LOL. Yea and so could BIRD, if he wasn't too busy feeding McHale and Parish. I can play that game too chap... the problem here is that Bird DID "score more" than Duncan as it is...and stop the BS about Bird's defense.

He was a TERROR off the ball in his prime years, and literally RAPED the Rockets in 86 with his double teaming and hustle on defense ALONE.

Bird is a top 5 player of all time BAR NONE. JordanBulls just running his typical mouth b/c he's ALSO asshurt that Bird destroyed Jordan in the 80's. It's not just peak kid, it's career as well. STOP IT. The nonsense is pathetic.

Bird finished top 3 in MVP for 8 EIGHT straight seasons. And realistically it's Top 2 for every single year (Jordan had ZERO FREAKIN BUSINESS having finished #2 in MVP in 87, that was a TRAVESTY).

TD doesnt even come close to that.

Playoffs?

24, 10, 6.5. Pretty much his career averages.

Duncan? 22, 12, 3.5. So let's get this straight, his rebounds go up 1, his points go up less than 2 points, his assists stay the same, and youre tryin to act like there's this "advantage" here. Caz I don't see it partna. Sounds like pure FLUFF to me.

Defense? Bird led the playoffs 3x in defensive win shares. Duncan did that ONCE.

I HATE advanced stats, but still....there ya go.

You don't average close to 2 steals and a block for your career and be "bad" on defense. Oh and FYI - peaks aren't really that close AT ALL. Duncan's ONLY advantage here, is longevity b/c of Bird's health.

THAT'S IT. Nothing else. Defensive edges, due to positiong and yes some ability, and health clearly go to TD. Bird is the better scorer, passer, leader, a comparable rebounder, more clutch (easily), and faced much tougher competition in the Finals.... end of story.
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Post#39 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Tue Dec 4, 2012 2:58 am by Birdfor3

Spurtatcus wrote:Larry was never at the level of Tim on defense and people act like Tim was Dwight Howard out there. Timmy could've averaged way more PPG but in the slow paced, halfcourt game the Spurs played, his 20ppg often account for 25% of the team's total scoring. Larry cannot dominate a game on both ends like Tim Duncan, not many players in NBA history can shut down an entire offense on one end of the court and dominate them in the post on the other end. This is in his very first playoff game:

http://www.myspace.com/video/gabriel/sp ... ffs/765672

This is a rookie taking Antonio McDyess to the woodshed. Too often I think Tim's offense gets overlooked in favor of his all around game and dominant defense but the fact of the matter is Timmy was an excellent scorer with more moves in the post than anyone in the league today. His FT% is usually around 70 as well so it's not like he's shooting 50% from the line in crunch time or anything. I've had the luxury of watching him for a long, long time, and you get spoiled with just how much he does on the court that you take for granted. The only players I'd take over Tim Duncan if I were starting an NBA franchise would be Michael Jordan and maybe Magic. No one else has the drive, competitiveness, selflessness, and consistency to match him. JMO



lmfao. what a sad pathetic asshurt typical troll ass homer post by a kid who probably has never even seen more than a few bird games in his entire freakin LIFE.

yea should i post some youtube clips of Bird taking Dominique to the "woodshed"...w/e the hell that means...

How about Bird schooling Jordan and Pippen, or Worthy, or Rodman, etc.

Bird was a SMALL FORWARD. His job wasn't to "shut down the post" genius, his job was to fascilitate the offense, score, and rebound, and play great team defense.

By the way, Duncan's defense is getting overrated here. You don't get anally raped by Amare for close to 40 ppg in a series, and be a "dominant defender". That's RIDICULOUS. DUNCAN'S THE ONLY ONE who got "taken to the woodshed" there. :roll:

Duncan's advantage is that he was a Center playing at PF. And that he was steady as hell. Not really an all-time peak kinda guy, but just extremely steady. Few holes in his game, beside FT shooting at times and a few health issues.

Anyways I like Duncan, I just hate asshurt Spurs fans that have to make him out to be something he's not. Is it not great enough to be the GOAT PF? Seriously?

Jesus it's getting to be like Jordan jocking dickrider status in here.

They're the 2 best forwards of all time. Let's just leave it at that jees...
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Post#40 Re: Playoffs only, Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?
Tue Dec 4, 2012 9:15 am by JordansBulls

Birdfor3 wrote:"The Unintelligent 1" clearly is asshurt about somethin. Did Larry have have sex with your mom or something?

Duncan's career numbers are PEDESTRIAN compared to ALOT of other guys. His %'s suck for a supposed "efficient" player...his scoring is subpar (and for a team full of roleplayers, he was NEVER, not ONCE, a "dominant" go-to-guy. In fact his scoring is scarily similiar to Garnett's. So cut the bullcrap about stats. ) He COULD "score more"....seriously? LOL. Yea and so could BIRD, if he wasn't too busy feeding McHale and Parish. I can play that game too chap... the problem here is that Bird DID "score more" than Duncan as it is...and stop the BS about Bird's defense.

He was a TERROR off the ball in his prime years, and literally RAPED the Rockets in 86 with his double teaming and hustle on defense ALONE.

Bird is a top 5 player of all time BAR NONE. JordanBulls just running his typical mouth b/c he's ALSO asshurt that Bird destroyed Jordan in the 80's. It's not just peak kid, it's career as well. STOP IT. The nonsense is pathetic.

Bird finished top 3 in MVP for 8 EIGHT straight seasons. And realistically it's Top 2 for every single year (Jordan had ZERO FREAKIN BUSINESS having finished #2 in MVP in 87, that was a TRAVESTY).

TD doesnt even come close to that.

Playoffs?

24, 10, 6.5. Pretty much his career averages.

Duncan? 22, 12, 3.5. So let's get this straight, his rebounds go up 1, his points go up less than 2 points, his assists stay the same, and youre tryin to act like there's this "advantage" here. Caz I don't see it partna. Sounds like pure FLUFF to me.

Defense? Bird led the playoffs 3x in defensive win shares. Duncan did that ONCE.

I HATE advanced stats, but still....there ya go.

You don't average close to 2 steals and a block for your career and be "bad" on defense. Oh and FYI - peaks aren't really that close AT ALL. Duncan's ONLY advantage here, is longevity b/c of Bird's health.

THAT'S IT. Nothing else. Defensive edges, due to positiong and yes some ability, and health clearly go to TD. Bird is the better scorer, passer, leader, a comparable rebounder, more clutch (easily), and faced much tougher competition in the Finals.... end of story.



By "colts"

Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


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