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Ummm Duncan defensively vs the 05 Suns? Amare torched them that series and he was the Suns only big. 37 ppg. I really wonder how that's a positive for Duncan's d

Shot Clock wrote:Ummm Duncan defensively vs the 05 Suns? Amare torched them that series and he was the Suns only big. 37 ppg. I really wonder how that's a positive for Duncan's d

You know only a clueless people takes stats at face value and make assumptions like you have.... It might be beyond your conceptualized ability to realize that the Suns weren't even close to winning that series depite Amare scoring, You know Amare was an overall negative contributor (+/- bares that out) in that series, aka.. the Suns were outscored more when he was on the court), that Marion was a complete non factor(7 ppg compared to 19/ppg) Why, because of Duncan? If you want to allowed to think otherwise but you are laughably wrong.

Blame Rasho wrote:

Shot Clock wrote:Ummm Duncan defensively vs the 05 Suns? Amare torched them that series and he was the Suns only big. 37 ppg. I really wonder how that's a positive for Duncan's d

You know only a clueless people takes stats at face value and make assumptions like you have.... It might be beyond your conceptualized ability to realize that the Suns weren't even close to winning that series depite Amare scoring, You know Amare was an overall negative contributor (+/- bares that out) in that series, aka.. the Suns were outscored more when he was on the court), that Marion was a complete non factor(7 ppg compared to 19/ppg) Why, because of Duncan? If you want to allowed to think otherwise but you are laughably wrong.

I agree that the Suns were not close to winning the series, but someone averages 37 ppg on you or that is playing your same position is not to be seen as a positive for your defensive abilities.

JordansBulls wrote:

Blame Rasho wrote:

Shot Clock wrote:Ummm Duncan defensively vs the 05 Suns? Amare torched them that series and he was the Suns only big. 37 ppg. I really wonder how that's a positive for Duncan's d

You know only a clueless people takes stats at face value and make assumptions like you have.... It might be beyond your conceptualized ability to realize that the Suns weren't even close to winning that series depite Amare scoring, You know Amare was an overall negative contributor (+/- bares that out) in that series, aka.. the Suns were outscored more when he was on the court), that Marion was a complete non factor(7 ppg compared to 19/ppg) Why, because of Duncan? If you want to allowed to think otherwise but you are laughably wrong.

I agree that the Suns were not close to winning the series, but someone averages 37 ppg on you or that is playing your same position is not to be seen as a positive for your defensive abilities.

Wel lAmare is the stupid fans favorite player for the most part... so you can think whatever you want... It was a part of the Spurs plan.. have one player try and beat you... and did they... no. They laughably failed.

Blame Rasho wrote:

Shot Clock wrote:Ummm Duncan defensively vs the 05 Suns? Amare torched them that series and he was the Suns only big. 37 ppg. I really wonder how that's a positive for Duncan's d

You know only a clueless people takes stats at face value and make assumptions like you have....

And only clueless mods set such a great example for everyone else around here by ignoring the rules of the board. It's pretty easy to disagree and make a sensible argument without this.

It might be beyond your conceptualized ability to realize that the Suns weren't even close to winning that series depite Amare scoring, You know Amare was an overall negative contributor (+/- bares that out) in that series, aka.. the Suns were outscored more when he was on the court), that Marion was a complete non factor(7 ppg compared to 19/ppg) Why, because of Duncan? If you want to allowed to think otherwise but you are laughably wrong.

Really, the Suns won that? And Amare's +\- wasn't good. (Still beyond my conceptual ability to fathom how Amare's plus minus has anything to do with Duncan's defense when he was tearing it up on offense) Wow I had no idea. Suns went with one big man most of the time as did the Spurs. Duncan Horry vs Amare, Marion. Amare was unstoppable and somehow Duncan gets prpped up for good D because his team won.

No other player would get a pass on this except Teflon Timmy.

I could understand giving him a pass but holding up that series of evidence of his defensive prowess....ah no

JordansBulls wrote:

kaima wrote:Bird gets hammered for playoff failures with homecourt around here.

Interesting fact? Duncan has lost 8 times in 15 seasons in the playoffs with homecourt. Yet we hear that his teams always finish where they should.

Further, Duncan's a rather large question mark at the end of games due to his clockwork inability to nail a FT.

Just two points amongst others, that get swept under the rug when discussing Duncan.

I think the issues are debatable, Unfortunately, they never seem to be debated at all, or discussed.

Actually the records are as follows:

Duncan 23-6 in Series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA

Right. I probably had '8' on my mind in reference to the Memphis series.

The comparative point is somewhat devil's advocate to begin with, if not wholly -- team success versus alpha's ability rather than the two being confused and fused -- so, to me, the more interesting numbers would be individual: elimination series stats, matchup splits, elimination game stats, etc.

Duncan's 2004 series against LA, for instance, largely is connected with the team's loss: last four games he put up 17+ and shot in the 30s. On the other hand, he was outstanding in the Dallas series of 06 in elimination.

Unfortunately Bird's stats from a decent portion of his prime are not nearly as readily available on a per game or series basis.

Still, there are a number of series -- win or lose -- where I've seen Duncan bothered horribly by tough D (LA 2004, Detroit 2005, etc.), perhaps as much or more than I ever witnessed with Bird.

Blame Rasho wrote:
Wel lAmare is the stupid fans favorite player for the most part... so you can think whatever you want... It was a part of the Spurs plan.. have one player try and beat you... and did they... no. They laughably failed.

I understand that, but if you are an alltime great defender you don't allow someone to average 37 ppg on you for a series. Hell Hakeem didn't even do that to David Robinson.

JordansBulls wrote:

Blame Rasho wrote:
Wel lAmare is the stupid fans favorite player for the most part... so you can think whatever you want... It was a part of the Spurs plan.. have one player try and beat you... and did they... no. They laughably failed.

I understand that, but if you are an alltime great defender you don't allow someone to average 37 ppg on you for a series. Hell Hakeem didn't even do that to David Robinson.

Let's be honest: SSOL drove those stats to large extent, with the Spurs playing to PHX's pace until they locked them down in the last few minutes. Like clockwork.

Duncan versus Bird is debatable, and Duncan's man D is overrated (that's not the same as his team D, of course), but looking for truth in stats involving D'AZntoni/Nash is about like believing the numbers in a California budget.

Kobe Bean wrote:Duncan

I'd pick the entire top 10 GOAT list, as well as LeBron and KG over Larry

Anyone who has bird outside the top 5 all time is just hilariously biased.

Clyde Frazier wrote:

Kobe Bean wrote:Duncan

I'd pick the entire top 10 GOAT list, as well as LeBron and KG over Larry

Anyone who has bird outside the top 5 all time is just hilariously biased.

Not necessarily, I have him at 6th, with Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Magic ahead of him, and I can see good arguments for Duncan and Hakeem as well. Some people would argue Wilt as well, even if I personally wouldn't.

You can rank all of those guys ahead of him without being biased.

Clyde Frazier wrote:

Kobe Bean wrote:Duncan

I'd pick the entire top 10 GOAT list, as well as LeBron and KG over Larry

Anyone who has bird outside the top 5 all time is just hilariously biased.

Care to explain why?

Do you not see a case for these guys over Bird?

MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and then you got Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kobe in the mix as well.

therealbig3 wrote:

Clyde Frazier wrote:

Kobe Bean wrote:Duncan

I'd pick the entire top 10 GOAT list, as well as LeBron and KG over Larry

Anyone who has bird outside the top 5 all time is just hilariously biased.

Not necessarily, I have him at 6th, with Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Magic ahead of him, and I can see good arguments for Duncan and Hakeem as well. Some people would argue Wilt as well, even if I personally wouldn't.

You can rank all of those guys ahead of him without being biased.

And that's career based. Once you start talking about prime impact players like Lebron and KG can be unbiasedly rated over Bird.

Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

You just missleading this thread... that not true period.

The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

Peak wise you can say he is, career wise I do not see the case for him.

JordansBulls wrote:

The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

Peak wise you can say he is, career wise I do not see the case for him.

For peak wise, below five are better.

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Wilt
Lebron

nolunch wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:

The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

Peak wise you can say he is, career wise I do not see the case for him.

For peak wise, below five are better.

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Wilt
Lebron

Umm not Kobe and LeBron :S '86 Bird was on another level.

nolunch wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:

The Infamous1 wrote:Why does bird have to be in some ones top 5? The MVPs? Because it dam sure isnt consistent playoff performances

Peak wise you can say he is, career wise I do not see the case for him.

For peak wise, below five are better.

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Wilt
Lebron

Kobe nor Lebron was in the top 5 on the realgm top 50 peaks.

nolunch wrote:For peak wise, below five are better.

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Wilt
Lebron

Are you serious? Bird's, and the other 4 guys' peak destroys Bryant's. Kobe was never that good, was never that impactful. Anyway, i'd take Duncan. Too much 2-way domination.