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Rank these SG peaks

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Post#1 Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:59 pm by SoulInTheHole7

03 Kobe
09 Wade
03 T-Mac
01 VC
92 Drexler

Rank them.

I'm guessing 01 VC is gonna be dead last on everyone's list.
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Post#2 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:05 pm by Kobe Bean

Kobe
T-Mac
Wade
Drexler
VC
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Post#3 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:06 pm by therealbig3

1. 03 T-Mac
2. 09 Wade
3. 03 Kobe
4. 92 Drexler
5. 01 VC

4 and 5 are pretty clear, it's really the top 3 that are hard to rank. But I don't think 03 is Kobe's peak anyway, which made the decision a little easier. I'd say 08 was Kobe's peak.
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Post#4 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:09 pm by SoulInTheHole7

therealbig3 wrote:1. 03 T-Mac
2. 09 Wade
3. 03 Kobe
4. 92 Drexler
5. 01 VC

4 and 5 are pretty clear, it's really the top 3 that are hard to rank. But I don't think 03 is Kobe's peak anyway, which made the decision a little easier. I'd say 08 was Kobe's peak.


Kobe has like 4 diff possible peaks bro lol.

I'd say peak Kobe is either 03, 06, or 07. But there's so many arguments, and none are really wrong.

Wade, Carter, Mac, and Drexler all have clear peak years.

But then again, that's the reason why Kobe is greater than all of them.
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Post#5 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:34 pm by tsherkin

09 Wade +2.9
03 T-Mac +4.5
92 Drexler +2.8
03 Kobe +3.1
01 VC +3.3

I think Wade stands out. Not really sure that the others do a ton to stand out from one another. McGrady, Drexler and Bryant were all better playmakers than Vince... and both Drexler and Bryant were better defenders.

I think it's a pretty close bag. For me, it's worth remembering that Wade's J was the strongest it had ever been, he was defending at a top level, he was creating for others at an extremely high level and he was effectively unguardable. His efficiency was excellent and he was the top scorer in the league. I think he stands out a little. Of course, his raw efficiency looks a little nicer; his 57.4% TS in 09 is the highest of any of these players... but it's deviation from league average is right in-line with everyone else in this group except for 03 McGrady, who had a better separation from league average, and actually the top ORTG in the group.

Now, none of that is conclusive, but it does stand out to me. McGrady had a fantastic year, at least offensively, and he did it with very little help around him, which is worth at least a little consideration. These are all fine seasons, and are fairly similar in value. To me, Wade's defensive value is what sets him apart. The others are essentially interchangeable, with the playmaking separating Vince out at the bottom... but not by a ton, because he was a nasty weapon that year.
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Post#6 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:50 pm by RayBan-Sematra

tsherkin wrote:To me, Wade's defensive value is what sets him apart.

I agree 100%

You basically summed up what i was gonna say with your post.

Offensively none of these guys are far apart but defensively Wade really stands out.
He was able to maintain the type of energy needed to really be effective and impactful on both ends of the court in 09 while both T-Mac and Kobe didn't really have much of a positive effect on the defensive end in those years.

Ranking these years seems pretty easy to me.

#1 is clearly Wade.

I prefer his shot-selection over T-Mac / Kobe and his rim attacking style and unique ability to split double teams off the dribble really makes him a more potent offensive weapon when going up against the tougher defensive teams (like Boston for example).

He was also the best and most consistent defensively combining elite m2m defense with some of the best help defense you'll ever see from a guard.

#2 is T-Mac
I ranked T-Mac above Kobe in 03 so I'll rank him higher here obviously.
Defensively they weren't far apart but T-Mac put up much better offensive numbers in both the RS and PS in 03 despite being in a position team wise that made it harder to do so.

Also Kobe was terrible in the playoffs due to Injury but irregardless of that I still would rank T-Mac higher.

#3. Is Carter unless we ignore Kobe's injury and just judge him based on his pre-injury ability/performances.
#4 is Carter or Kobe depending on the bolded.
I definitely think 03 Kobe before injury was better then 01 Carter but if the injury is included then I'd definitely take Carter over him for a one year run.

Oh and I almost forgot Drexler.
Guy is underrated... was very good in 92.
I'd probably slide him in at #3 or #4.
I'd put him ahead of Vince but I am not sure I'd put him ahead of 03 Kobe prior to injury.

I don't think it really makes sense to ignore injurys in this kind of comparison so...

1. Wade
2. T-Mac
3. Drexler
4. Carter
5. Kobe (who might be 3 or 4 prior to injury)
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Post#7 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:05 pm by OptimusOne6

09 Wade
03 Kobe
03 McGrady
92 Drexler
01 Carter

Carter should not be in the discussion and Kobe's peak was either 2006 or 2008, not 2003. I would give 08 Kobe the slight edge over 09 Wade but not 03 Kobe.
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Post#8 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:23 pm by An Unbiased Fan

tsherkin wrote:To me, Wade's defensive value is what sets him apart. The others are essentially interchangeable, with the playmaking separating Vince out at the bottom... but not by a ton, because he was a nasty weapon that year.

I don't see how Wade's defensive value sets him apart. Kobe was All-D 1st team, and the premier perimeter defender back in 2003. Wade was just All-D 2nd team in 2009.

Overall:

1) 03' Kobe
2) 09' Wade
3) 92' Drexler
4) 01' Vince
5) 03' Tmac
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Post#9 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:40 pm by flashwade33

All-D teams dont say much about defensive value, how do you not know this by now?

If it was the other way around, if Wade was selected to the All-D team every year and Kobe was the better defender, you would have said All-D teams had no value. (which would be true)
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Post#10 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:49 pm by JappleApple

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
tsherkin wrote:To me, Wade's defensive value is what sets him apart. The others are essentially interchangeable, with the playmaking separating Vince out at the bottom... but not by a ton, because he was a nasty weapon that year.

I don't see how Wade's defensive value sets him apart. Kobe was All-D 1st team, and the premier perimeter defender back in 2003. Wade was just All-D 2nd team in 2009.

I don't recall anyone ever considering Kobe the "premiere perimeter defender" at any point of his career let alone 2003 so... you're basically just making that up.

All-D teams have been deemed worthless / irrelevant by most intelligent basketball heads so bringing them up as "proof" of defensive ability is a fail & is pointless.

Kobe's DRAPM in 2003 was -0.2 and the Lakers team defense was much better in the playoffs when he wasn't on the court according to On/Off numbers.

Wade's DRAPM in 2009 was a +0.8 and his team was far better defensively when he was on the court.

Wade was also better going by DRTG and DWShares and was 3rd in DPOY voting in 2009.

2009 Wade was much better then 2003 Kobe defensively and it isn't really debatable.
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Post#11 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:00 pm by tsherkin

An Unbiased Fan wrote:I don't see how Wade's defensive value sets him apart. Kobe was All-D 1st team, and the premier perimeter defender back in 2003. Wade was just All-D 2nd team in 2009.


Mmm.... Bowen was definitely a better perimeter defender than Kobe in 2003. So was Ron Artest. So was Kidd. Hell, Raja Bell was at least as good. Doug Christie... I mean, there were a lot of really good perimeter defenders in the league at that point. Kobe was very good, but he's also made All-NBA 1st Team a lot of times when he didn't deserve it.

Anyway, Kobe was bombing almost 24 FGA/g; it was the fifth-highest usage rate he's managed in his career. Watching that season, I never felt he was giving the kind of consistent defensive effort he'd managed in previous years (and even in some since). He was still good, but not as impactful as Wade in 09. And of course, Wade was a better scorer in 09 than Kobe in 03, or at least had a better offensive season.
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Post#12 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:49 pm by Black Feet

Wade was nothing more than an above average defender, the fact that he's never made all nba 1st d team is very telling. Also all these years are in the hand check era except for Wade. To me 03 Kobe and TMac are clearly above Wade, the rest are interchangeable.
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Post#13 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:05 pm by tsherkin

Black Feet wrote:Wade was nothing more than an above average defender,


This is definitely wrong.

the fact that he's never made all nba 1st d team is very telling.


This is also not true, since All-NBA teams have consistently rewarded Kobe, even when it was remarkably clear that the quality of his defense had declined for one reason or another.
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Post#14 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:06 am by picc

It's interesting how much hind-sighted adulation 09 Wade gets on this board, when the best player debates in 2009 were, to a near consensus, between Lebron James and a Kobe Bryant who was actually leaving his prime.

I, personally, thought Wade was the best player in the league in 09. And in '10. But its funny that a guy (Wade) who basketball fans/pundits couldn't even agree was better than an out-of-his-prime Bryant at the time, is now being remembered as definitively better than the peak version of him.

But ok.

Anyway. The top 3 are clear in whatever order. I think its closer between Vince in 2001 and Drexler than anyone is giving credit for though. Vince was one of those guys like CP3 who had a clear solar flare outburst of a peak that quickly dialed down afterward. He wasn't even the same guy in 2002, but in 01 he was great at almost literally everything. One of the best shooters in the league, great scorer, very good passer, very good defender when called upon, decent rebounder, good ballhandler, clutch as hell. It'd be tough to argue the Raptors would have been better off with Clyde instead of him that year.
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Post#15 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:21 am by Rapcity_11

Black Feet wrote:Wade was nothing more than an above average defender, the fact that he's never made all nba 1st d team is very telling. Also all these years are in the hand check era except for Wade. To me 03 Kobe and TMac are clearly above Wade, the rest are interchangeable.


The only thing telling about all-d teams is how ridiculous the voting panel is.
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Post#16 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:45 am by Shot Clock

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Black Feet wrote:Wade was nothing more than an above average defender, the fact that he's never made all nba 1st d team is very telling. Also all these years are in the hand check era except for Wade. To me 03 Kobe and TMac are clearly above Wade, the rest are interchangeable.


The only thing telling about all-d teams is how ridiculous the voting panel is.

Agreed, I have no doubt Kobe makes first team again this year. A guy who good coaches like Popovitch ran a play to get a game winning shot off Kobe's young assignment rather then his obvious options, because he knew it was his best option.

People claim Kobe is a good "man" defender but he's not, he's a good on the ball defender. Man to man defense requires attention to your assignment and Kobe is like watching children play soccer they all gravitate to the ball.
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Post#17 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:10 am by The Infamous1

2003 Kobe is one of the most complete players I've ever season. Scoring, passing, defense, rebounding, etc. That was the year he perfected the game of basketball.

And lol at kobe not being a good man defender, this is classic revionist history
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Post#18 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:04 am by G35

SoulInTheHole7 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:1. 03 T-Mac
2. 09 Wade
3. 03 Kobe
4. 92 Drexler
5. 01 VC

4 and 5 are pretty clear, it's really the top 3 that are hard to rank. But I don't think 03 is Kobe's peak anyway, which made the decision a little easier. I'd say 08 was Kobe's peak.


Kobe has like 4 diff possible peaks bro lol.

I'd say peak Kobe is either 03, 06, or 07. But there's so many arguments, and none are really wrong.

Wade, Carter, Mac, and Drexler all have clear peak years.

But then again, that's the reason why Kobe is greater than all of them.



True words.

Kobe is an outlier because compared to these other guys for various reasons:

For much of his physical prime he shared or was #2 to Shaq pushing subjugating his numbers. Any other SG including MJ would not be posting peak numbers playing next to Shaq.

Kobe gets criticized for being on stacked teams but that means he doesn't get to put up historic/peak type seasons because he has to play within the team (for the most part) because the team is actually trying to win a championship. Compared to 09 Wade/01 Carter/03 TMac, those teams didn't have to share the ball as much as Kobe has had to.

If you put 2003ish or 04ish Kobe on the 2008-2010 Lakers i think he would blow this other guys away and it would be much clearer that the only competition would be him and MJ.....
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Post#19 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:14 pm by MacGill

For much of his physical prime he shared or was #2 to Shaq pushing subjugating his numbers. Any other SG including MJ would not be posting peak numbers playing next to Shaq.


*Sigh* Why do the pro-Kobe supporters always choose to leave out the benefits of playing along side a prime Shaq? And what that did to positively impact Kobe's game? And it is not like Shaq never had to share the rock with Kobe as well who just happens to be #2 all-time in FG%.

Kobe gets criticized for being on stacked teams but that means he doesn't get to put up historic/peak type seasons because he has to play within the team (for the most part) because the team is actually trying to win a championship. Compared to 09 Wade/01 Carter/03 TMac, those teams didn't have to share the ball as much as Kobe has had to.


Right, which is something you value right? Mike James once avergaed over 20PPG for my Raptors but everyone knew that wasn't going to be the receipe for success. Again, playing with good teammates also has many advantages and provides support for Kobe to impact the game in other area's. It shouldn't always come back to whether or not he could score a few more ppg now.

Outside of peak, look how the rest of the listed SG's are ranked because of that same lack of success in the post season.

If you put 2003ish or 04ish Kobe on the 2008-2010 Lakers i think he would blow this other guys away and it would be much clearer that the only competition would be him and MJ.....


Well in all honesty, outside of peak years which is only a portion of overall ranking it really is only Kobe and MJ but there is still clear seperation between the 2 regardless of which version of him you want to place where.
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Post#20 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:10 pm by ardee

'03 Kobe is the wrong year to pick as his peak, he was at his best in either '06, '07 or '08, to me choosing any year outside of those three as his peak would require a lot of thought behind it. Personally I lean '08, but I can see the argument for the other two very easily. So if we're talking actual peaks and not the years you listed:

Kobe
Wade
McGrady
Drexler
Carter
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F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
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G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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